|
|
Post by rubgish on May 22, 2014 13:20:27 GMT
Were B&W, populous, dungeon keeper etc really that 'deep' though? B&W, you could barely do anything except pick up & drop things, use spells (very slowly at first), and control the creature. Populous was a pretty basic strategy game, but well executed with interesting land and some innovative spells. Dungeon Keeper had a very limited number of things you could build, but was satisfying to play and well balanced. Basically I don't think a game needs to be 'deep' to be good, nor do I think there are really that many games that are deep, or at least need to be played 'deeply' to be good. There are also plenty of games that you can get a huge amount out of playing casually in a non-deep way, but that can still be deep if you want them to. Yes and no. I'd say that if you take the overall picture they were pretty complex even though the single parts of them were really simple. Except maybe for Populous but don't forget the limitations of that time, its the oldest of these games after all. In black and white you could solve quests in multiple ways. Almost always there were at least a good and evil solution but often times there was also a neutral solution, sometimes there were more then 3 ways to solve a quest and each way lead to follow up quests and different rewards. That gave the game quite a lot of replay value. The creature you had was also a quite complex artificial intelligence that you could teach complex orders if you were willing to invest the time (you didn't had to bother with your creature, but you could. If you search the internet there are multiple analysis of the brain of the creature which is fairly complex). Dungeon Keeper I was also quite unique and complex. Yes, the number of rooms were limited but it wasn't like other strategy games in which you build a barrack and recruited soldiers, you had to fulfill specific conditions. For example rooms had to be in a specific size or order to lure specific creatures into your dungeon. Every room also had a function beside attracting creatures (training, creating traps, research, torture to convert heroes, store) as opposed to a barracks in age of empires for example. Creatures also acted relatively autonomous, for example they went to training on their own (instead of just investing money to level up your creatures). Thats actually more complex than most strategy games are today are. Yes, parts of these games were relatively simple. For example to fight you usually just dropped all your creatures next to the heroes in DK and the city building part of black and white 1 was quite simple. But they gave you freedom and room to experiment, multiple ways to approach the game and there was a lot to explore (for example finding out how sacrifices work in dungeon keeper (some of them even had a negative effect) and all the ways you could solve quests in B&W). Different players would approach and play the games differently. Some would focus on the creature in black and white, others would ignore it. Some would build one big city which influence would reach the whole map, others would focus equally on all cities. You could kill everyone in a city and just taking over it by placing some of your own followers in it. It was even possible to create a undead city using a easter egg. The layout of a dungeon would differ greatly between different players while each one would have different focus and strategy. In Godus instead almost everyone end up with a flat world destroying anything that was once unique in that world. Godus has nothing like that and it doesn't give you any form of freedom to approach things differently. Your points here at very good. A sort of over-riding theme of these games though is that they could be played successfully very simply, in the same way all of godus is at the moment. I mean hell think about how straight forward black and white 1 was if you didn't bother training your creature or doing any side-missions/hidden stuff. Basically my point is that at the moment, Godus can only be played in this simple, straightforward way with basically no thinking, strategy or challenge involved. But what if in the next 6-12 months they add a whole bunch of optional, challenging things independent of the base game-play mechanics we currently see? Think of Godus like black and white, but with black and white having no creature & no quests or secrets to be found. You'd still have the picking & throwing, the world, the 'town' building and the miracles, but really it'd be a pretty bad game. It's the one or two unique extra things that really made Black and White such a fantastic game. Godus currently lacks any attempt to keep engagement or to have real progression, but they *should* come with time. Going back to my B&W analogy, adding hubworld should be like adding the creature - suddenly you have purpose and a reason to do stuff. |
|
Tau
Wannabe
Posts: 28
|
Post by Tau on May 22, 2014 13:24:48 GMT
Could be I need some new glasses.  Either that, or you could try to clear your browser's cache. |
|
splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149 
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
|
Post by splitterwind on May 22, 2014 13:35:12 GMT
Good point. But it would only work if they would also remove the F2P mechanics in my opinion.
Belief collection was automatic in B&W 1+2, Popolous 1,2,3 and Dungeon Keeper 1+2 also had a proper resource system.
These games didn't had repetitive "minigames" that you had to do to advance (like collecting belief, voyages or clicking a fountain every X minutes), neither did they had timers that lasted longer then 10 minutes. Yes the core game was simple but even the core game had some strategy in it. Even if you would completely ignore sidequests and your creature in B&W you could approach it in different ways. The core game of Dungeon Keeper was also fun and strategic.
Just adding interesting stuff on top of that wouldn't work in my opinion.
Godus could very well become a good god game, the engine and graphics are a good start. The problem is that 22cans is absolutely hesitating in doing any step to make this game actually good (removing F2P mechanisms).
Imagine that you had to click every single house in Black and white every 10 minutes, that you had erase every single tree one at a time, that you would need belief to do basic things like throwing things or interacting with your creature. Imagine that instead of your influence radius extending automatically based on the number of your followers there would be a shrine where you had to wait for an hour.
|
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on May 22, 2014 15:07:23 GMT
EDIT: I hate this quoting system. I am only a casual forum writer - need a more casual forum software. Can someone explain me where this avatar in the quote comes from? It's not the one of crumpysixit or anyone else in this thread. Fixed it for ya. Crumpysix IT doesn't exist mate. |
|
|
|
Post by Crumpy Six on May 22, 2014 15:32:08 GMT
Sixty Crumpet.
|
|
|
|
Post by rubgish on May 22, 2014 15:51:18 GMT
Good point. But it would only work if they would also remove the F2P mechanics in my opinion. Belief collection was automatic in B&W 1+2, Popolous 1,2,3 and Dungeon Keeper 1+2 also had a proper resource system. These games didn't had repetitive "minigames" that you had to do to advance (like collecting belief, voyages or clicking a fountain every X minutes), neither did they had timers that lasted longer then 10 minutes. Yes the core game was simple but even the core game had some strategy in it. Even if you would completely ignore sidequests and your creature in B&W you could approach it in different ways. The core game of Dungeon Keeper was also fun and strategic. Just adding interesting stuff on top of that wouldn't work in my opinion. Godus could very well become a good god game, the engine and graphics are a good start. The problem is that 22cans is absolutely hesitating in doing any step to make this game actually good (removing F2P mechanisms). Imagine that you had to click every single house in Black and white every 10 minutes, that you had erase every single tree one at a time, that you would need belief to do basic things like throwing things or interacting with your creature. Imagine that instead of your influence radius extending automatically based on the number of your followers there would be a shrine where you had to wait for an hour. Belief collection was only automatic if you had people praying, the way I played may have involved a little bit more er... 'human sacrifice' than just praying all day, but it worked  In all seriousness, I think so long as the current mechanics are heavily balanced towards being non-tedious (i.e. a long way from where they are right about now), then it would be fine to keep them, it's just horrifically frustrating at the moment due to a combination of lack of balance and nothing else to do. |
|
|
|
Post by Monkeythumbz on May 27, 2014 13:17:15 GMT
It sounds to me like they are describing Godus as oriented squarely on the casual market and that it is simply a "city management game." Albeit one that they intend to have more expressive and wonderful interaction, with deeper mechanics... But that it is a casual city management game. FarmVille, new urbanization. 1. did they/22 cans write this (I have never been to a conference where the speaker did not write the subject blurb) 2. is the focus on the casual game component of Godus because they need to specialize the speech, or because casual game is what they care about? 3. What's with the mention of kickstarter funding & steam early access? Are they suggesting to other developers that this is an appropriate route for a casual game to go down? More importantly, are they suggesting that their funding/early access was open and transparent about the casual nature of their game? Casual is not mentioned ~anywhere~ in the Steam store page. A bunch of deep, single player games (B&W, populous, dungeon keeper) used to be mentioned. What are your thoughts?
Hey everyone, only just picked up this thread. Just so you know, our presence at this conference is only to discuss the mobile version of Godus - you shouldn't take it to mean that we’re not working on the PC version or that we don't still intend to deliver a PC version that will appeal to PC gamers. It's merely that for the purpose of this particular talk, the main topic of discussion will be the mobile game instead of Godus for PC. As a studio, we are still committed to providing the kind of experience with Godus that PC gamers will find both engaging and compelling, however we're very much aware that some work needs to be done to achieve that and so we're still some ways off from getting that to you.
To answer your questions:
- It was written in conjunction between the event organisers and the studio.
- The focus on casual for the talk is purely for the purposes of the conference and absolutely does not reflect how we think about Godus per se, and especially not for PC.
- The mention of KS and Steam EA is given kind of like an aside, an oblique reference to Godus' genesis in case the potential audience member isn't familiar with the project. Note the word "turn", thus implying that the version of Godus Peter & Jack will be talking about is different and distinct from the Steam EA version and that the PC version's development obviously isn't targeted at casual gamers.
I hope that clears things up a little.
|
|
|
|
Post by engarde on May 27, 2014 13:24:49 GMT
You do realise that saying this conference presence does not mean you're not working on the PC version, does not actually say that you are working on the PC version...
Nor does confirming 'some work needs to be done...'
|
|
|
|
Post by wonkonpac on May 28, 2014 0:23:38 GMT
Hi George,
I need to watch myself with the posting of similar topics to Steam and here - I nearly missed your response! Apologies. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
What I took away from your statement is that PC will be substantively and substantially different than the mobile version -- i.e. the version we currently have installed. The mobile version is intended to be casual, and the PC version not.
The 'turn' wording in the seminar blurb was confusing, given that there is no current different between the builds & in fact, the Steam build has become steadily more mobile-like.
I honestly don't know how 22Cans intends to pull this off with Marmalade, but perhaps your roadmap will bring some clarity to the differences.
Hope you had a great holiday.
|
|
splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
|
Post by splitterwind on May 29, 2014 14:55:46 GMT
given that there is no current different between the builds & in fact, the Steam build has become steadily more mobile-like. Not only that, they are working on additional mobile mechanics right now, like the happiness meter and gifts. A global happiness meter is completely different to individual needs of residents\people like sim city or banished has. |
|
