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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Jul 11, 2014 13:40:18 GMT
This topic is split off from another thread following from this post. Well the Jupiter-sized planet was clearly, clearly nonsense from the get-go. Even with thousands of other players, even assume millions (which is absurd), the amount of scrolling it would take to actually encounter another person in a simulated environment with more surface area than 120 Earths ... odds are stacked against it happening. I know statistics is another negative for 22Cans(arbitrary completion percentage), but the Jupiter thing was just unnecessary. The 'millions' claims in terms of players, I can write off as just overly-optimistic hopes for the game, but the Jupiter one stands out for me on a whole other level of implausibility. |
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splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149 
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jul 11, 2014 14:48:20 GMT
Well it would had been possible that they had handled it like a browser game. A huge map but new players always start next to someone else or a specific algorithm and pre-designed spawn points.
It would still be technically impossible, browsergames do not simulate individual people. An army in a browsergame is nothing more than a number and no matter how big that number becomes it doesn't affect performance since it's just that, a number.
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Post by Deth on Jul 11, 2014 15:15:25 GMT
I figured that it would be that only you and any other player zones touching yours would be "loaded" and when you move into another player zone, it would then de-load any zones not touching this one and load the zones touching it. I would assume as long as it takes to scroll across a zone that the other zones could be loaded/unloaded. As they limit how far you can zoom out, you could never zoom all the way out and click half way across the world. But if they did you would just have a loading screen.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 11, 2014 17:38:37 GMT
Have you ever played Minecraft, and tried to find the edge of the world? It's nearly impossible because even the smallest biome is enormous. 3.bp.blogspot.com/-_E3278TlkGw/UC-AZw93mKI/AAAAAAAAAUs/3LXSUPQZAgY/s1600/Minecraft+scale.jpgBut anyone that has played would know that even a large designated host server struggles even with the proceedural generating the further you explore, especially so with the more players there are. So, it could theoretically be done, but highly unlikely with current technology and financial limitations; these constraints alone would prove it to be a highly lofty and invariably flawed idea. Sadly those are the exact kind of pipe dreams Peter uses to sell his projects, whether it be willfully deceptive or innocently naive may never really be known - tho it's possibly (likely) a bit of both. Dreamers dream big, but when they sell their dreams as reality, what separates them from the charlatans? |
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Post by Danjal on Jul 11, 2014 20:46:37 GMT
Well the Jupiter-sized planet was clearly, clearly nonsense from the get-go. Even with thousands of other players, even assume millions (which is absurd), the amount of scrolling it would take to actually encounter another person in a simulated environment with more surface area than 120 Earths ... odds are stacked against it happening. I know statistics is another negative for 22Cans(arbitrary completion percentage), but the Jupiter thing was just unnecessary. The 'millions' claims in terms of players, I can write off as just overly-optimistic hopes for the game, but the Jupiter one stands out for me on a whole other level of implausibility. Even ignoring the space implication and the loading issues. An actual physical world would mean your neighbours are fixed. If you've ever played Travian or Tribal Wars, you know that that can only end in one of three ways. Either you beat your neighbours, get beat by them or forge an alliance with them. At which point you start expanding outwards. But you'll never get to 'meet' the majority of the players. Course, the hubworld method as drawn out right now also doesn't get you to meet most of the players either... So there's that... I'm still quite amused by the idea that 1 our of 4 players will advance in hubworld and that the rest should be content in sitting there repeating the same dull tasks while their chosen one should work for them on the higher hubs. Completely ridiculous. What is it with people designing game mechanics that make you *NOT* play the actual game?? |
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Post by hardly on Jul 11, 2014 21:09:13 GMT
If you look at the history of the whole Jupiter comment you find there is an interview where Peter confessed that the reason he said as big as Jupiter was because there was a big minecraft thing where they said "as big as ..." and he wanted to out do that. Of course peter being peter he didn't have a problem saying this without knowing how to do it.
Personally I always put this promise in the bullshit category. I knew if it ever happened it would be implemented in the limited ways you've mentioned above. Even hubworld is giving them problems so yeah a million people on one map was never going to happen.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 11, 2014 21:09:47 GMT
What is it with people designing game mechanics that make you *NOT* play the actual game?? It's called greed; business models based on immediate gains. From an "on paper" idealistic business standpoint, it makes total sense. As a long term realistic business plan, it's utter crap. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 11, 2014 21:13:54 GMT
If you look at the history of the whole Jupiter comment you find there is an interview where Peter confessed that the reason he said as big as Jupiter was because there was a big minecraft thing where they said "as big as ..." and he wanted to out do that. Of course peter being peter he didn't have a problem saying this without knowing how to do it. Personally I always put this promise in the bullshit category. I knew if it ever happened it would be implemented in the limited ways you've mentioned above. Even hubworld is giving them problems so yeah a million people on one map was never going to happen. It's not the first time he's done something like that, either. He's pulled out Minecraft as an example and inspiration many times, among other popular titles, and then proceeded to say how he's going to do something even more amazing or on a bigger and grander scale... and then we get something not even close to any of it. Any time Peter speaks now I question every sentence for validity, and try to extrapolate the truth hidden beneath the grandeur. |
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Post by Danjal on Jul 11, 2014 22:25:57 GMT
The problem with the whole minecraft and indie example is that Peter (as far as I've been able to deduce) seems to believe that these indie developers don't deserve the successes they've acquired.
At every turn he speaks in admiration of their accomplishments only to turn around and say that a developer/designer has the primary goal to prioritize money. He's mentioned multiple times that he believes it foolish that a development studio changes their game to the whims of the player and that they should instead follow their own (apparently superior?) vision instead.
And above all he seems to be a strong believer in the fact that communication will only lead to disaster.
So if you take his statements together, it seems to be that he's saying he admires the success Minecraft has reached - but it could've been so much better if Minecraft had been a traditionally AAA-developed title. With the focus and limitations of such a title.
Just look at 22cans itself, Peter was "so happy" to go indie. Yet his studio is ran as if its Microsoft or EA, with divisions split apart and with the secrecy and structure of such a corporation. I'm not sure whether it is because he simply didn't (doesn't?) know better... Or because he truely believes that to be the superior method.
I would've loved Godus to follow the Jupiter promise in concept, if not in reality.
The idea of an expansive procedurally generated world in which you can encounter new people and their civilizations?
Sadly thats something that will never be. Instead we'll be forced to sit in a hub with 4 fixed people. Who inevitably will stop playing sooner or later.
And then you're sitting there alone. So many holes in the design....
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Post by banned on Jul 11, 2014 22:29:48 GMT
Sadly, there are many who fail to understand that minecraft was not a "I don't have to actually have a game! and I can throw a store in and profit!" Minecraft was a building engine that they left open and thus people jumped in.
All these "wanna be"s are under the same delusion as all the Zynga clones once farmville went well known. In general little more than the fart joke app on the isore. Cash in on what seemed to be "popular" without understanding why it was so.
Kind of like after Snakes on a Plane became a huge thing on the "tubes full of cats" some MBA idiots thought that meant the movie would be a big hit.
Clueless shall remain so despite all the information at their feet.
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Post by hardly on Jul 12, 2014 3:29:48 GMT
If you look at the history of the whole Jupiter comment you find there is an interview where Peter confessed that the reason he said as big as Jupiter was because there was a big minecraft thing where they said "as big as ..." and he wanted to out do that. Of course peter being peter he didn't have a problem saying this without knowing how to do it. Personally I always put this promise in the bullshit category. I knew if it ever happened it would be implemented in the limited ways you've mentioned above. Even hubworld is giving them problems so yeah a million people on one map was never going to happen. It's not the first time he's done something like that, either. He's pulled out Minecraft as an example and inspiration many times, among other popular titles, and then proceeded to say how he's going to do something even more amazing or on a bigger and grander scale... and then we get something not even close to any of it. Any time Peter speaks now I question every sentence for validity, and try to extrapolate the truth hidden beneath the grandeur. Its not just the comparison that's important. As I recall, what Peter said, gave me the impression that they heard Marcus Notch talk about the size of the virtual minecraft world in the context of a planet (I think it might have been Neptune or something) and Peter wanted to one up him so he said GODUS would play out on a planet the size of Jupiter. The scary thing for me was it didn't sound like there was any science behind the promise, just the desire to one up someone else and create some hype. I have to stress this is just what I took from Peter's answers in an interview. Its interesting that since that promise Peter hasn't provided any additional explanation of how Jupiter will work. This suggests me that he is probably going to welch on the whole Jupiter thing or claim some bullshit half measure is the same as what he said.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 12, 2014 4:14:12 GMT
It's not the first time he's done something like that, either. He's pulled out Minecraft as an example and inspiration many times, among other popular titles, and then proceeded to say how he's going to do something even more amazing or on a bigger and grander scale... and then we get something not even close to any of it. Any time Peter speaks now I question every sentence for validity, and try to extrapolate the truth hidden beneath the grandeur. Its not just the comparison that's important. As I recall, what Peter said, gave me the impression that they heard Marcus Notch talk about the size of the virtual minecraft world in the context of a planet (I think it might have been Neptune or something) and Peter wanted to one up him so he said GODUS would play out on a planet the size of Jupiter. The scary thing for me was it didn't sound like there was any science behind the promise, just the desire to one up someone else and create some hype. I have to stress this is just what I took from Peter's answers in an interview. Its interesting that since that promise Peter hasn't provided any additional explanation of how Jupiter will work. This suggests me that he is probably going to welch on the whole Jupiter thing or claim some bullshit half measure is the same as what he said.
I gave up on Jupiter months ago. I'll be happy if we can get maps the size of a large city. With how things are shaping up, we've likely seen the largest map size we're going to see. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 12, 2014 4:45:10 GMT
Perhaps we should migrate this to another topic? This is one of the rare threads where it's prudent to stay on task.
I still can't think of any more positives to add to the other topic, sadly, but this negatives list may keep growing...
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splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jul 12, 2014 12:55:12 GMT
Have you ever played Minecraft, and tried to find the edge of the world? It's nearly impossible because even the smallest biome is enormous. 3.bp.blogspot.com/-_E3278TlkGw/UC-AZw93mKI/AAAAAAAAAUs/3LXSUPQZAgY/s1600/Minecraft+scale.jpgBut anyone that has played would know that even a large designated host server struggles even with the proceedural generating the further you explore, especially so with the more players there are. So, it could theoretically be done, but highly unlikely with current technology and financial limitations; these constraints alone would prove it to be a highly lofty and invariably flawed idea. No the way peter described it couldn't even be done theoretically and would likely still be impossible for the next dozen years. The key difference towards minecraft is that a block in minecraft can only affect its 12 neighbors, also each block is either active or inactive and the physics are so simple that every block will get inactive after a short amount of time. If its set to active it will be re-calculated in the next step. This is the reason for the rather strange flow of water and why one bucket full of water can set a big portion of the map under water. Minecraft doesn't track amounts of water, everything is a block with very simple rules. That is also the reason why once you dig one block of gravel all other neighboring blocks of gravel will suddenly realize that they were floating in the air and start falling. They were previously set on inactive and haven't made a single calculation. At the moment you digged that one block its telling all its neighbors "Hey I changed, go ahead and check if anything has changed for you!" and a chain reaction ensues. Minecraft also doesn't track individual NPCs. The aren't thousands of creepers running around your map, they will just spawn in your immediate area and once you leave that area they will vanish. Godus however was supposed to have dynamic water, wind and weather simulation and each follower of you was supposedly unique. Another Example, imagine having a lumberjack that would chop trees next to his area. In a world that is divided in chunks (like minecraft) he would stop working once you get too far away. In Godus that would mean that everything that is too far away from your camera (like once you expanded too far or go offline) would freeze. To counteract this a lumberjack in such a game would not really chop trees but instead produce a specific amount of wood each hour. Once you come back and the lumberjack unfreezes all they have to do is calculate the time past since your last visit and add the according amount of wood to the stockpile. Basically like a browsergame. Such a simulation of past time gets increasingly more complex the more interactive your world is. For example if you have a bowyer that needs wood you would need to calculate not only the amount of wood produced but also the amount drained and how it affects the efficiency of the bowyer... If you would add forester and dynamic biomes or weather influencing the efficiency of your lumberjack everything would become drastically more complex. Thats likely also the reason we have no serious resource management but something comparable to a browsergame where you have to collect everything yourself, have to spent it yourself (instead of your followers taking it from a stockpile as they need it) and nothing influences something else (for example no individual age or health of your followers, no interaction between followers, no individual jobs, doctors, school...). Erosion over time and wind/weather simulation similar to from dust (as peter compared the supposedly mechanics of godus) would be a !completely! different level of complexity. Now if you also consider that minecraft server can easily get exhausted and only support a limited number of players and that minecraft isn't a strategy game... |
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Post by Danjal on Jul 12, 2014 13:25:01 GMT
And on top of that all, there's the idea that they want(ed?) to get that all to work on a mobile/PC hybrid network. I can only guess at the processing and networking power required to keep those servers running. "50~60 million players" Sounds great untill you realize what it actually means behind the scenes.
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splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jul 12, 2014 13:56:48 GMT
Its interesting that since that promise Peter hasn't provided any additional explanation of how Jupiter will work. This suggests me that he is probably going to welch on the whole Jupiter thing or claim some bullshit half measure is the same as what he said. I gave up on Jupiter months ago. I'll be happy if we can get maps the size of a large city. With how things are shaping up, we've likely seen the largest map size we're going to see. He already said in a very early video (back in 2012) with jack that they tried that tech and it was difficult and would require lots of servers.. |
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Post by hardly on Jul 12, 2014 20:44:34 GMT
Hey splinterwind I'm not going to quote your long ass post but just to say it fucking depresses me. Not just because it proves why Jupiter won't happen but also why this game will stay simple. Damn.
It's worth reflecting on Sim City 5 again. With previous version I understand they just used simple methods of representing activity. In 5 they went with the glass box model which simulated every person. But here's the problem, they had to make a series of compromises to make that work. People didn't have a set job or house so they'd just go to the nearest one that met their needs. The biggest game breaking compromise though was size, because they were simulating everything and wanted to keep the requirements low they had to limit map size which limited population size. This meant you ended up with sim town instead of sim city.
Oh and another sim city 5 debacle that is very relevant is how regions and multiplayer didn't work. Basically you'd have up to 16 cities in a region that were linked and could be played by you or your friends. Cities could send each other stuff and workers commuted. The interaction was controlled by ea servers to support multiplayer. It never worked while I was playing the game. Gifts went missing and even messaging between players didn't work in real time. It was a massive face palm by EA Games. Now when we think about hubworld/Jupiter it seems likely 22cans will hit similar issues.
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Jul 14, 2014 15:48:29 GMT
I don't think this has been added yet, but for some reason for a short period of time a few months ago they claimed that no money from Early Access or Kickstarter was used to fund mobile development. Clearly nonsense, and a mystery as to why it was felt to be necessary to make such a statement, at all.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 14, 2014 17:30:41 GMT
I don't think this has been added yet, but for some reason for a short period of time a few months ago they claimed that no money from Early Access or Kickstarter was used to fund mobile development. Clearly nonsense, and a mystery as to why it was felt to be necessary to make such a statement, at all. Possible reasons; 1. Disorganization: Nobody is certain, right-hand, left-hand syndrome - poor internal communication. Too many disjointed parts. Bad financial records. 2. Misinformation: misinformed, unintentional innocent foot/mouth syndrome {see above} - spoke before verifying or clarifying. Bad information. 3. Deceit; purposeful misdirection and subterfuge to confuse and delay - slight of hand tactics, smoke and mirrors. Straight up lies. 4. Ineptness; no solid plan, no single entity knows enough of what's going on {see 1 & 2 above} - too many fingers in the pot. Lots stepping on each others feet. Massive confusion. 5. Powergrab/Greed; Superiority complex or trust issues, paranoia - Someone in a control position plays everyone for fools. Need to know/your eyes only. Tell them anything to keep them guessing. We can guess and speculate, and blame and point fingers all we want, but since we don't have an insider with direct access and knowledge of the upper echelons of the company we'll never really know for certain. |
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Post by sidara on Jul 15, 2014 11:04:28 GMT
The key difference towards minecraft is that a block in minecraft can only affect its 12 neighbors I think the TNT block might disagree with you  But then chain a lot of TNT up and you can very very quickly bring Minecraft to its knees. And then there's taking things to extremes: I thought friendly NPCs were always loaded - i.e. villagers and farm animals. I've gone far away from my base, come back and my chickens were still there. It's been a while since I played though. To be honest I never really bought this as more than typical Peter hyperbole. I've run simulations locally for 3D modelling and it takes hours just for a few seconds of real-time. I think the ultimate point is that you can have good gameplay without all of that - just look at Minecraft. It started off very simple, and it's thriving. Godus is not. |
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