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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 14, 2014 15:49:39 GMT
However, PM also pointed out that he wanted to create a game that is functional for everyone. Effectively claiming that he could bring the serious attitude of PC gaming into the casual crowd and maintain a game that would interest everyone equally. Which, if you ask me, is definitely putting the bar incredibly high. The goal set for Godus (as it was described through later interviews) just isn't something you can reasonably expect to obtain. Perhaps he intentionally set his aim extremely high knowing that he would never quite achieve the goal but trying to get as close to it as he possibly could. Perhaps he intentionally made bold statements because he already had the idea of possibly attracting additional investors in the back of his head. Perhaps he was just a naïve dreamer. In the end, only Peter Molyneux can know. The sad part is that it is the backers and SEA purchasers that will end up paying the price for the whole mess. Like the last investors in a pyramid scheme, they will end up the ones with empty pockets and nothing to show for it in the end...
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Post by Danjal on Aug 14, 2014 15:52:46 GMT
Thats my point entirely, valueing the B2B interactions is nice. But ultimately you've not gotten your initial funding through them.
The backers and SEA purchasers have been effectively ignored because there is no clear legal system in place for them to enforce their 'rights'. Even though a purchase is effectively a contract just the same.
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Post by dozvati on Aug 14, 2014 16:01:01 GMT
I like the Patreon model more, you basically subscribe to pay a few dollars at regular intervals (for artists, youtubers, musicians, this could be weekly, monthly, everytime a piece of content comes out, theres a lot of options), and you can set a cap to how much money you pay per month. The benefit of this model for the subscriber, is that you're not paying upfront, you're part of a stream. Which means if your audience loves you, you're in the money. If you use your kickstarter campaign to avoid corporate meddling, only to enlist the help of corporate meddling, if subscribers aren't a fan, they can leave.
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Post by muumipeikko on Aug 14, 2014 23:43:28 GMT
Thats my point entirely, valueing the B2B interactions is nice. But ultimately you've not gotten your initial funding through them. The backers and SEA purchasers have been effectively ignored because there is no clear legal system in place for them to enforce their 'rights'. Even though a purchase is effectively a contract just the same. In the UK their is good court system where you could enforce your rights but the problem here is: 1: Most people's claim would be dwarfed by the court costs (£300-400 since they put it up). 2: We all took a leap of faith, people told us Peter was a lying scumbag with a horrid record for delivery and even tried to derail his project but the KS was sufficiently vague that you probably couldn't sue. We asked "I want to play on PC and mobile how many licences do I need" the said "you should probably go for package X or higher". Classic example of over excited buyers selling themselves into a bad deal. Just like the rip off merchants who use to operate out of Tottenham court road you have to laugh at you naivety and move on
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 18, 2014 14:26:05 GMT
Here's a pretty honest and accurate review that doesn't hold back on the issues; DigitallyDownloaded review: Godus (iPad) " ...this game is nothing short of offensive" The last paragraph just hits home with the hard, sad truth, " As I mentioned in the introduction, I wouldn't even be writing this review if this was just another Farmville clone from a nothing developer. I simply wouldn't have downloaded it. But this is a game by Peter Molyneux who, for all his misfires in recent years, remains a guy who is fiercely intelligent and deeply committed to creative game development. The fact that he allowed this game to fall into such a cynical monetisation model shows just how enslaved developers and publishers have become to free-to-play games, and that makes Godus a symbol, but for reasons that Molyneux probably didn't anticipate; it's a symbol for just how infuriating free-to-play has become." That last bit has to hurt. Especially after all the heavy lauding of how going "Indie" would give them freedom to be innovative. The clincher is that, if they had stayed away from the P2W/F2P model (at least until they had a strong core game) and launched it as a paid for app... they likely could have avoided this mess they're now in. Hindsight is a bitch.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 18, 2014 17:45:07 GMT
Here's a pretty honest and accurate review that doesn't hold back on the issues; DigitallyDownloaded review: Godus (iPad) " ...this game is nothing short of offensive" The last paragraph just hits home with the hard, sad truth, " As I mentioned in the introduction, I wouldn't even be writing this review if this was just another Farmville clone from a nothing developer. I simply wouldn't have downloaded it. But this is a game by Peter Molyneux who, for all his misfires in recent years, remains a guy who is fiercely intelligent and deeply committed to creative game development. The fact that he allowed this game to fall into such a cynical monetisation model shows just how enslaved developers and publishers have become to free-to-play games, and that makes Godus a symbol, but for reasons that Molyneux probably didn't anticipate; it's a symbol for just how infuriating free-to-play has become." That last bit has to hurt. Especially after all the heavy lauding of how going "Indie" would give them freedom to be innovative. The clincher is that, if they had stayed away from the P2W/F2P model (at least until they had a strong core game) and launched it as a paid for app... they likely could have avoided this mess they're now in. Hindsight is a bitch. "It was the decision of the device." What we never realized was the harsh truth that Molyneux has been entrapped by mobile. I'm not sure what animals prey on whales (besides us), but those bastards were obviously chewing off one side of Molyneux while we were occasionally setting blaze to the other sides. (No, I've not mixed up my threads here.)
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 18, 2014 17:57:38 GMT
Here's a pretty honest and accurate review that doesn't hold back on the issues; DigitallyDownloaded review: Godus (iPad) " ...this game is nothing short of offensive" The last paragraph just hits home with the hard, sad truth, " As I mentioned in the introduction, I wouldn't even be writing this review if this was just another Farmville clone from a nothing developer. I simply wouldn't have downloaded it. But this is a game by Peter Molyneux who, for all his misfires in recent years, remains a guy who is fiercely intelligent and deeply committed to creative game development. The fact that he allowed this game to fall into such a cynical monetisation model shows just how enslaved developers and publishers have become to free-to-play games, and that makes Godus a symbol, but for reasons that Molyneux probably didn't anticipate; it's a symbol for just how infuriating free-to-play has become." That last bit has to hurt. Especially after all the heavy lauding of how going "Indie" would give them freedom to be innovative. The clincher is that, if they had stayed away from the P2W/F2P model (at least until they had a strong core game) and launched it as a paid for app... they likely could have avoided this mess they're now in. Hindsight is a bitch. "It was the decision of the device." What we never realized was the harsh truth that Molyneux has been entrapped by mobile. I'm not sure what animals prey on whales (besides us), but those bastards were obviously chewing off one side of Molyneux while we were occasionally setting blaze to the other sides. (No, I've not mixed up my threads here.) I do have some simpathy for the situation they find themselves in, and wish no ill will to anyone involved, it's just difficult to continue supporting this charade when all these mistakes could have been avoided if they had taken the Backer community, and eventually the SEA community, a bit more seriously; many of the pitfalls and potholes were pointed out and warned about, repeatedly, very early on. The only reason I can fathom that they went so deep into the F2P minefield is because either Peter already knew about (had lined up) a deal with DeNA beforehand - which means he was disingenuous about his ideas/plans - or he was extremely unprepared and gullible about exactly what he was venturing into. I know he's a dreamer (we can all relate to that), but I have a hard time believing a veteran of the industry went in unprepared.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 18:05:53 GMT
"It was the decision of the device." What we never realized was the harsh truth that Molyneux has been entrapped by mobile. I'm not sure what animals prey on whales (besides us), but those bastards were obviously chewing off one side of Molyneux while we were occasionally setting blaze to the other sides. (No, I've not mixed up my threads here.) I do have some simpathy for the situation they find themselves in, and wish no ill will to anyone involved, it's just difficult to continue supporting this charade when all these mistakes could have been avoided if they had taken the Backer community, and eventually the SEA community, a bit more seriously; many of the pitfalls and potholes were pointed out and warned about, repeatedly, very early on. The only reason I can fathom that they went so deep into the F2P minefield is because either Peter already knew about (had lined up) a deal with DeNA beforehand - which means he was disingenuous about his ideas/plans - or he was extremely unprepared and gullible about exactly what he was venturing into. I know he's a dreamer (we can all relate to that), but I have a hard time believing a veteran of the industry went in unprepared. Denny Crane here... JK!! I thought it was interesting that Peter often times references Minecraft in his interviews. I think most of his comments about Minecraft are rather ironic considering Godus COULD HAVE BEEN the next big Minecraft-ish hit... if he wasn't so hell-bent on going f2p. He had everything going for him... and he sold out to the f2p market.. </back to lurking>
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 18, 2014 18:07:16 GMT
"It was the decision of the device." What we never realized was the harsh truth that Molyneux has been entrapped by mobile. I'm not sure what animals prey on whales (besides us), but those bastards were obviously chewing off one side of Molyneux while we were occasionally setting blaze to the other sides. (No, I've not mixed up my threads here.) I do have some simpathy for the situation they find themselves in, and wish no ill will to anyone involved, it's just difficult to continue supporting this charade when all these mistakes could have been avoided if they had taken the Backer community, and eventually the SEA community, a bit more seriously; many of the pitfalls and potholes were pointed out and warned about, repeatedly, very early on. The only reason I can fathom that they went so deep into the F2P minefield is because either Peter already knew about (had lined up) a deal with DeNA beforehand - which means he was disingenuous about his ideas/plans - or he was extremely unprepared and gullible about exactly what he was venturing into. I know he's a dreamer (we can all relate to that), but I have a hard time believing a veteran of the industry went in unprepared. "I knew when I started 22cans that I needed to go back to school as a designer. I started to see this thing in the industry about community-led development and watching playing people and analytics, and I wasn't exposed to it at all." Going into the Kickstarter after 22cans had been operating for awhile, I'm pretty sure he rapidly learned what he wanted to about the platform from the so-called experiment, he just learned all the wrong lessons. As far as I'm concerned, the gaming industry was better when these guys tossed out the whole idea of formal education for figuring it out on their own. Formalization of information is dangerous stuff, it can kill it from the inside out as much as it can help it survive, you know?
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Post by banned on Aug 20, 2014 1:27:00 GMT
and saddest of all, since they kickstartered, they had a well educated and mostly nice for a year+ telling them, "this is a mistake. You won't like the outcome."
"learned all the wrong lessons." Think this is the epitaph of godus, personally. Time and again ignored sage advice because didn't understand the lessen of "crwodsourced" (that only means you don't go for Corp. backers right?) Then everytime they say "we get it.", in fact they understood nothing.
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Post by banned on Aug 20, 2014 1:44:42 GMT
"The fact that he allowed this game to fall into such a cynical monetisation model shows just how enslaved developers and publishers have become to free-to-play games, and that makes Godus a symbol, but for reasons that Molyneux probably didn't anticipate; it's a symbol for just how infuriating free-to-play has become."
Shame no one warned 22cans, over and over and over and over... (I mean what could we possibly know? I mean it is not like we actual play games, study every aspect of them fanatically, or anything.)
And of course a lesson in the danger of sycophantry.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 13:54:46 GMT
Here's a pretty honest and accurate review that doesn't hold back on the issues; DigitallyDownloaded review: Godus (iPad) " ...this game is nothing short of offensive" The last paragraph just hits home with the hard, sad truth, " As I mentioned in the introduction, I wouldn't even be writing this review if this was just another Farmville clone from a nothing developer. I simply wouldn't have downloaded it. But this is a game by Peter Molyneux who, for all his misfires in recent years, remains a guy who is fiercely intelligent and deeply committed to creative game development. The fact that he allowed this game to fall into such a cynical monetisation model shows just how enslaved developers and publishers have become to free-to-play games, and that makes Godus a symbol, but for reasons that Molyneux probably didn't anticipate; it's a symbol for just how infuriating free-to-play has become." That last bit has to hurt. Especially after all the heavy lauding of how going "Indie" would give them freedom to be innovative. The clincher is that, if they had stayed away from the P2W/F2P model (at least until they had a strong core game) and launched it as a paid for app... they likely could have avoided this mess they're now in. Hindsight is a bitch. "It was the decision of the device." (No, I've not mixed up my threads here.) Why did Peter "go indy" in the first place if he was just going to let DENA and "the device" make decisions like that for him... I'm so confused.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 20, 2014 14:01:05 GMT
Lol. You actually almost got me there - it took me a split second to doubletake and look at the comment author to be sure. I thought it was interesting that Peter often times references Minecraft in his interviews. I think most of his comments about Minecraft are rather ironic considering Godus COULD HAVE BEEN the next big Minecraft-ish hit... if he wasn't so hell-bent on going f2p. He had everything going for him... and he sold out to the f2p market.. </back to lurking> I cringe every.single.time that Peter mentions Minecraft. I often wonder if he's actually really ever played it or is keenly just aware of it's exceedingly polpularity among gamers; if it's the former, he needs to go back and study both the game and it's history, becausd he apparently has a differing experience than most - or, if it's the later, he is a snake-oil salesman touting and waving his supposed "amazing knowledge of the miracles of the mysterious Notch" just to swindle and bedazzle those whom have tasted the healing waters of "the minecrafts", essentially to garner attention and gain geek credibility. Either way, it's not working for him anymore and he has to stop, because it's just making things worse. The two games are so vastly far appart in appeal, and immediately differing in emmersion and depth, it's ridiculous to compare them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 14:04:26 GMT
Lol. You actually almost got me there - it took me a split second to doubletake and look at the comment author to be sure. I thought it was interesting that Peter often times references Minecraft in his interviews. I think most of his comments about Minecraft are rather ironic considering Godus COULD HAVE BEEN the next big Minecraft-ish hit... if he wasn't so hell-bent on going f2p. He had everything going for him... and he sold out to the f2p market.. </back to lurking> I cringe every.single.time that Peter mentions Minecraft. I often wonder if he's actually really ever played it or is keenly just aware of it's exceedingly polpularity among gamers; if it's the former, he needs to go back and study both the game and it's history, becausd he apparently has a differing experience than most - or, if it's the later, he is a snake-oil salesman touting and waving his supposed "amazing knowledge of the miracles of the mysterious Notch" just to swindle and bedazzle those whom have tasted the healing waters of "the minecrafts", essentially to garner attention and gain geek credibility. Either way, it's not working for him anymore and he has to stop, because it's just making things worse. The two games are so vastly far appart in appeal, and immediately differing in emmersion and depth, it's ridiculous to compare them. I agree. I wonder if he realizes that, with a skin mod and a month or two (sans 22cans assets) of attention from the MC community, I'm confident Godus could be quite nearly duplicated/replicated in Minecraft.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 20, 2014 14:04:40 GMT
"It was the decision of the device." (No, I've not mixed up my threads here.) Why did Peter "go indy" in the first place if he was just going to let DENA and "the device" make decisions like that for him... I'm so confused. Naivity or greed. Neither of which are very redeeming qualities in "seasoned game designer". I don't want to believe it's either, but it is difficult not to think that given the history of this project.
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Post by ghosrath on Aug 20, 2014 14:30:48 GMT
IMO PM is very much set in his corporate (EA, Microsoft) ways. It is about greed all the way... That might not have been so when he was still running bullfrog, but it is blatently apparent now...
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 20, 2014 16:15:28 GMT
IMO PM is very much set in his corporate (EA, Microsoft) ways. It is about greed all the way... That might not have been so when he was still running bullfrog, but it is blatently apparent now... And unfortunately sometimes people can be unaware to the fact that they're basing decisions around greed and self preservation, rather than (in this case) for the best interests of the product.
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Post by muumipeikko on Aug 20, 2014 23:51:33 GMT
IMO PM is very much set in his corporate (EA, Microsoft) ways. It is about greed all the way... That might not have been so when he was still running bullfrog, but it is blatently apparent now... In honesty if I were starting a games company and had to chose, I'd go down the mobile FTP. The thought of writing a thin game in a month or so which becomes an internet sensation and starts generating silly money/day and having VC circulation putting billion dollar valuations on my company is very appealing Vs spending year or so writing a complex pc title and then hope it sells well so I will be able to repay the debt I took out to write the game any maybe have a little profit at the end. Where Peter went wrong was kickstarting this game. The fundamental issue with Godus was to fund it Peter promised something which was not optimal to 22can's long-term financial success but maybe vital to their short-term survival. The second the money hit the bank and survival was assured he forgot why we helped him survive and focused on optimising his own position at the cost to everyone else.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 21, 2014 0:43:42 GMT
Good point.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 21, 2014 0:48:39 GMT
The thing there is, are you trying to make money or are you trying to make a game.
Look at Paradox Interactive, Obsidian Entertainment, inXile and various other studios. They could've been pulling in money by the truckload on mobile titles or even on PC/console if they made some of their more complex titles accessible to a wide audience. Instead, they choose to create the games they'd want to play themselves rather than the games they figure would fetch the quickest bucks.
Now I'm not a designer or anything, at best I know a snippet or two about coding. But I do know that I could never live with myself making the kinds of games that float around on mobile. Not to mention, yes... IF you manage to hit it off and get exposure you'll do great, but for every title we see that does great there are hundreds if not thousands that sink into the swamps to be forgotten or even never seen in the first place.
Mobile titles are inherently cheaper to make, because they are so much smaller. Yet... Peter apparently wants to make a PC-scaled budget game on mobile... And then shovel in the money through microtransactions. He's trying to make vastly different components of the market work together. Without any proper knowledge or research.
Statistically mobile has the largest number of users. But the majority of those do not pay steady amounts of money, they will purely function as exposure. Only a small percentage will actually pay, so the trick is to get that small percentage in and keep hold of them. Which is where 22cans has made a MASSIVE mistake, because there's nothing in Godus to retain the attention of even the most dimwitted of players. Sure, someone who plays at a slower pace will last longer - but they won't generate more rating, nor will they generate revenue.
If you play a few minutes each day you might last long - but you're not gonna spend any money on the game. And once you realize that you've been repeating the same tasks over and over and its not going anywhere...
Godus lacks that spark that cookie clicker, flappy bird and candy crush apparently have. In concept those games are also about repeating a simple piece of gameplay, yet I have a hard time seeing the meaningless expansion with no real visible results retain a lot of players. Somehow I don't think that the 'constant progression' of cookie clicker, the high-score frenzy of candy crush and that frustrating *ALMOST* feeling of flappy bird find any footing in the little counters of population and other resources that Godus has. And even if they'd do... a week of solid play and you've got all the cards and content covered. 2~3 weeks if you play less...
I recall Peter saying how he believes all these indie studios are foolish in that they pander to the whims of their supporters. Trying to release weekly updates and adjust the game to the desires of the player.
Yet right now, 22cans has 2 options. Either they churn out content weekly to retain their mobile flock. Or people lose interest.
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