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Post by morsealworth on Aug 12, 2014 12:31:24 GMT
A nice suggestion alongside the upcoming statue of belief collection. And I know this has been suggested before but I'll drop it here regardless. Have some form of organized religion. A religious/devout follower type can go walk around in his effective area and go door to door to 'spread the word' or something of the sort. This would be visually engaging (to a degree), provide the player with a mechanic to collect belief which is tied into the nature of the game and at the same time prevent the need to manually collect stuff. A similar 'collection' mechanic could be implemented for wheat and other potential food sources (I'm still very much in favor of having animals for food and other resources) and then have a little grocer/merchant guy go around and collect it to distribute it from a market/marketplace/store. In some ways I like the ideas, but I think the implementation as you describe would come too close to RTS mechanics. Well, City Management simulations exploit this kind of mechanics as well... And hey are the closest to the god games. Not to mention resources in B&W.
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 12, 2014 12:38:20 GMT
I definitely agree that diversity could potentially lead to that. But its a careful balance. Afterall, if one path is vastly superior to the alternatives you get nobody using them. Examples: - Using your pokemon example, often we see one version being far more popular if it holds more interesting or stronger pokemon than the other. - If we delve into MMO examples, in WoW and other games we often see one class or skill-tree behind held above the others because it is viewed as superior. - Even in games like Civilization, you see people leaning towards certain nations and playstyles because they are vastly superior. I think if you're going to look at a potential for trade and diversification, you will not want to have 80% of your playerbase sticking to one route. Unless ofcourse you purposefully design it that way, but I see no reason why you would design a path/race/playstyle in such a way that few people want to play it. Perhaps I'm overthinking it though. Perhaps the main audience for this game (which currently is heavily mobile oriented) doesn't really look that far into the future and just plays on a day-by-day basis without planning ahead.
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 12, 2014 12:41:50 GMT
I suspect that if 22Cans were to strip everything down to just the voyages and regarded that as a standalone product and they would really really focus on expanding the concept and put lots of fun and interesting stuff in there they could have a real mobile hit on their hands. It's sort of like Lemmings which was of course a huge hit, only this is 3D and you can manipulate the landscape instead of manipulating the followers. If you'd give the player options to give commands to the followers as in Lemmings...
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Post by Danjal on Aug 12, 2014 12:49:10 GMT
Extra Credits are right on the money as usual - I think many developers could learn from their videos if they only chose to listen....
As for voyages being stand-alone? They'd need a bunch of refining and offering the player more options and tools. But if they could pull that off it could be quite interesting.
A slight side-note. If you do like the concept of lemmings, check out "Flockers" by team17 (the guys behind worms) - I haven't played it myself but it seems to combine the tongue-in-cheek humor of worms with the concept of Lemmings.
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Lord Ba'al
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 12, 2014 12:55:33 GMT
A slight side-note. If you do like the concept of lemmings, check out "Flockers" by team17 (the guys behind worms) - I haven't played it myself but it seems to combine the tongue-in-cheek humor of worms with the concept of Lemmings. Thanks for the tip. I played an awful lot of Team17 games in the past. Good development team.
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Raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Aug 12, 2014 13:22:26 GMT
I want a deep engrossing gaming experience dammit. Then we need less houses, and followers, not more. Less of this exponential number growth stuff. More complexity through combinations and connections. i.e. Have the number of jobs and job types that need filling grow to become larger than the population so you have to play a balancing game. Have an inherent cost in maintaining followers, so not a popcap itself, but something that forces you towards a max population. Have distant goals that can only be achieved by solving the complexity of the game rather than grinding.
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
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Post by Raspofabs on Aug 12, 2014 13:24:25 GMT
I definitely agree that diversity could potentially lead to that. But its a careful balance. Afterall, if one path is vastly superior to the alternatives you get nobody using them. Examples: - Using your pokemon example, often we see one version being far more popular if it holds more interesting or stronger pokemon than the other. - If we delve into MMO examples, in WoW and other games we often see one class or skill-tree behind held above the others because it is viewed as superior. - Even in games like Civilization, you see people leaning towards certain nations and playstyles because they are vastly superior. I think if you're going to look at a potential for trade and diversification, you will not want to have 80% of your playerbase sticking to one route. Unless ofcourse you purposefully design it that way, but I see no reason why you would design a path/race/playstyle in such a way that few people want to play it. Perhaps I'm overthinking it though. Perhaps the main audience for this game (which currently is heavily mobile oriented) doesn't really look that far into the future and just plays on a day-by-day basis without planning ahead. I think we can probably make three trees that are rock/paper/scissors. And for those tech branches, there's no reason why the "goals" need to be the same (or at least the means by which the goals are achieved)
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 12, 2014 13:24:46 GMT
I couldn't agree more. I think.
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Post by Deth on Aug 12, 2014 13:31:14 GMT
I think we can probably make three trees that are rock/paper/scissors. And for those tech branches, there's no reason why the "goals" need to be the same (or at least the means by which the goals are achieved) Good/Neutral/Evil?
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Post by Danjal on Aug 12, 2014 13:44:12 GMT
I think we can probably make three trees that are rock/paper/scissors. And for those tech branches, there's no reason why the "goals" need to be the same (or at least the means by which the goals are achieved) I couldn't agree more. Its definitely something we as players have talked about before, sometimes going into great detail. An old but very engaging thread on the steam boards was "Predestination versus Free Will (a v2.0 perspective)" going into great detail and touching on various aspects that would achieve these goals. A particular noteworthy part of that lengthy discussion/brainstorm would be the scaling system. Where we ended up putting various playstyles at odds with eachother: - Good vs Evil (morality) - Expansionist/Consuming vs Balanced/Preserving (environmental aspects) - Free-will vs control Definitely a worthy read if you have the time.
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
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Post by Raspofabs on Aug 12, 2014 14:28:45 GMT
I think we can probably make three trees that are rock/paper/scissors. And for those tech branches, there's no reason why the "goals" need to be the same (or at least the means by which the goals are achieved) Good/Neutral/Evil? Moral/Spritual, Technological/Artistic, Economical/Exploration?
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
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Post by Raspofabs on Aug 12, 2014 14:43:30 GMT
I think we can probably make three trees that are rock/paper/scissors. And for those tech branches, there's no reason why the "goals" need to be the same (or at least the means by which the goals are achieved) I couldn't agree more. Its definitely something we as players have talked about before, sometimes going into great detail. An old but very engaging thread on the steam boards was "Predestination versus Free Will (a v2.0 perspective)" going into great detail and touching on various aspects that would achieve these goals. A particular noteworthy part of that lengthy discussion/brainstorm would be the scaling system. Where we ended up putting various playstyles at odds with eachother: - Good vs Evil (morality) - Expansionist/Consuming vs Balanced/Preserving (environmental aspects) - Free-will vs control Definitely a worthy read if you have the time. That's a great thread. The only problem for me is it's too long to be able to get through it all! Also, I stopped because I felt a little depressed that no matter how brilliant the idea was, I'm not the person to be its voice. It could just be that my ideas are trash, but none of my suggestions have made it into the game.
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 12, 2014 14:45:25 GMT
Well for what it's worth, your 'turn followers into stone statue/mine that statue for stone resource' idea in this thread was absolutely amazing.
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 12, 2014 14:51:00 GMT
Moral/Spritual, Technological/Artistic, Economical/Exploration? It's so refreshing to see a 22Cans employee actually brainstorming with backers about Godus.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 12, 2014 14:57:41 GMT
Moral/Spritual, Technological/Artistic, Economical/Exploration? That's a great thread. The only problem for me is it's too long to be able to get through it all! Also, I stopped because I felt a little depressed that no matter how brilliant the idea was, I'm not the person to be its voice. It could just be that my ideas are trash, but none of my suggestions have made it into the game. I think its more a problem of vision. For a very long time it has been obvious to me that the game Peter intends to create here caters not to the desires of a 'gamer' (the views that you seem to share based on your suggestions), but instead on that of a casual player. Providing easily accessible, shallow experiences. Something to do 'in-between' without the need to pay attention to it. A vast collection of minigames and 5-minute-gameplay content. Things you do while on breaks etc. Possibly this has to do with the rise in popularity for mobile gaming, which he might see as 'the new kind of gaming'. Its a shame that he started off through kickstarter and was so vague in his concept though. Because as a result of that he inadvertently drew the scorn of all of these backers by going into an utterly different direction with his actual game. We've seen promises, but no actual proof. Suffice it to say, many here would rejoice if suggestions such as ours and yours would make it into the game. But there seems to be little chance of that any time soon. Apparently that kind of deep and engaging gameplay is considered to be 'too difficult' and therefor 'scary' to the average mobile/casual player. The idea/claim that godus is supposed to be a game that targets *all* audiences seems to be a meaningless boast unless you truely believe that everyone can be satisfied with such meaningless 'chore' style gaming that fills up the minutes between your daily activities.
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Post by dozvati on Aug 12, 2014 14:59:09 GMT
Remove belief bubbles entirely. Remove stickers. Instead of clicking houses, your followers come up with ways to try and show their appreciation. Burning effigies, sacrificing people to a volcano, praying to a statue of a golden calf. Whichever way the player likes aesthetically, they can encourage by showing their blessings upon those followers, soon that form of showing belief grows throughout your population. Now, belief replaces stickers.
Unlock god powers through increased belief. Instead of spending belief, you're simply trying to raise enough to unlock new abilities. Start off with the god hand to "guide" your followers. Let followers build houses without having to sculpt the land. Land stays beautiful. Sculpting the land makes your followers rush out of their homes and worship the ground which you move, I don't know why that should "cost" belief. Unlock the ability to generate a prophet. Use prophets to organise more advanced shrine building. Spend a prophet by making a town shrine.
Resource management shouldn't require gods to click fields. Workers are literally there to harvest that already. Implement trading between settlements. Introduce the concept of tools, fire, education, houses to your followers with belief. Followers cut down trees to build houses. Use god powers to sow an improved harvest. Early food gathering based on luck without divine intervention. Guide a herd towards your followers. When your civilization unlocks agriculture, wheat farms become a more reliable source of food.
Mid/Late game when approaching other civilizations. Happiness should be irrelevant. Do you assimilate other civilizations? Do you join forces for a multi-god system, pooling your belief and both growing stronger? Do you wipe them off the map with a crusade? Defend against assimilation by being more prosporous, or by instilling the fear of god in them. Use prophets to persuade enemy citizens to join your religion. Don't let players attack each others cities with god powers. Your sphere of influence should be within your citizens lives. If two disparate followers meet on the battlefield, however, divine intervention is up to you.
"Natural disasters" can be god powers too. Put them on a respectable cooldown. Extremely late game god powers could involve manifesting physically as a giant and stomping on everything. Leave a cool stone corpse after your fun in the sun.
Instead of voyages giving belief/resource/sticker rewards, make them continent rewards. A new island for you to settle on. You can keep the puzzles. It would be a continuation of the tutorial, your followers start on the beach, travel towards a suitable land to settle. Introduce mythological creatures / buried wonders. Unique rewards/shrines. Getting copies allows you to trade them to other players.
But those are just my ideas.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Aug 12, 2014 15:02:53 GMT
... none of my suggestions have made it into the game. We know the feeling.
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Lord Ba'al
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 12, 2014 15:15:46 GMT
Apparently that kind of deep and engaging gameplay is considered to be 'too difficult' and therefor 'scary' to the average mobile/casual player. There isn't even a reason why a casual game couldn't have a complicated and interesting simulation running. As we said before in this thread you can implement a resource system without the player ever being involved in it. And that's just one example.
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Lord Ba'al
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 12, 2014 15:19:25 GMT
Unlock god powers through increased belief. Instead of spending belief, you're simply trying to raise enough to unlock new abilities. I would say don't unlock powers by achieving a certain amount of belief in store but rather by achieving a certain amount of belief increase per time period.
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 12, 2014 15:22:32 GMT
Or not use "unlocking" as it is inherently crap, but make any miracles sustained by belief while used. Want to throw lightnings? Have enough energy to gather the clouds. No energy - clouds naturally dissolve. Your power then depends on the amount of faith in you, not on some "progress" which is abstract, gamey and breaks immersion if you think about it for a second. You can also introduce alignment bonus: 1. You use lughtning often. 2. Your followers start to revere you as god of lightning (among other things). 3. Their belief is specific so you need less of their belief to use lightning as they see lightning as sign aof your will and reinforce it themselves without even realising it. Extremely late game god powers could involve manifesting physically as a giant and stomping on everything. Leave a cool stone corpse after your fun in the sun. Or do it Japanese way as I suggested on the backer forums before alpha was even released - give a live to some... thing and make it alive. The created Tsukumogami/Elemental/Golem would help your followers with work. inspire them to believe in you (and change their belief alignment described above according to specifics of the creature) and consume belief just like a large-scale miracle it is. Now, if you deactivate the Golem, it becomes a monument to your power and increases faith (with bonus gradually decreasing with time) until awoken again to do your divine bidding. Also, you may need your followers to actually create the materials for Golem through series of festivals, enchanting its various parts like artifacts in Black&White. It would become a mini-quest (not in formal way, I hope) of its own.
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