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Post by distraction on Aug 20, 2014 17:33:04 GMT
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Post by Danjal on Aug 20, 2014 17:45:37 GMT
There's 2 main features regarding iOS apps.
#1 is ratings (exposure). The more your app gets rated, the more exposure it gets, the more chances new people will pick it up because they see your app featured.
Clearly this is the route that many apps go for, and Godus is no different.
#2 is retention. Since its much harder to create something that KEEPS people interested, especially when that something is free to begin with and there's no assurance that people will stick. Creating something that keeps people is hard and carries risks, spend a ton of money on something that nobody likes and thats money wasted.
Right now, in the initial period, Godus still is surfing on the initial wave of exposure. But that wave is dying down rapidly.
So unless they can get retention up, people are going to lose interest and they will lose momentum.
Peter doesn't seem worried (or doesn't want to realize this) and he holds on to the 20~30k 4~5 star ratings as acknowledgement of how good he is and how we've all been wrong all this time.
We here ofcourse are more rational in recognizing that a button-press rating on a free product given within the first 15 or so minutes of play isn't going to mean much. It just gives your app the exposure it needs to get more people on board.
Aslong as your app has no retention value, all of these people will leave just as fast (or faster) as they joined in the first place.
What does this mean for us? Well frankly this means that the PC sprint is a load of BS.
22cans can not afford to focus on the PC, as their PRIMARY source of income right now is the iOS app.
And to keep that cash flowing they need to find ways to retain the attention of their iOS players, otherwise the well will dry up.
I don't know what the contract with DeNA entails, but I can only assume that hubworld is included in that and there might be some other parts that we don't know about.
And the sad truth is that neither kickstarter nor Steam Early Access have any legal ties to hold 22cans accountable. Their reputation and morality is at stake, but that won't force them to fullfill that side of the bargain.
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ghosrath
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Post by ghosrath on Aug 21, 2014 13:23:37 GMT
What does this mean for us? Well frankly this means that the PC sprint is a load of BS. 22cans can not afford to focus on the PC, as their PRIMARY source of income right now is the iOS app. And to keep that cash flowing they need to find ways to retain the attention of their iOS players, otherwise the well will dry up. In addition to this, i believe that it is a lot harder to re-engage mobile players. Mobile players are not the kind that really follow a game in development the way pc-gamers do. Meaning that probably a lot of the iOS players won't even notice a big content update. I think that 22C has choosen a wrong aproach to mobile, since it is much more of a "one chance only" market. Bringing an unfinished game to that market will have lost them a lot of potential revenue |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 21, 2014 13:35:51 GMT
Thats correct. The only chance you have to regain the attention of a mobile player is by returning to the front page. By getting exposure.
The initial burst when the program is new is a good one, since you have the "new releases" page where you'll be visible and then become downloaded by a bunch of people who try out most - if not all - of the new releases.
But once you're past that point, you will need a number of downloads to return to that position.
The app-store is a selfish, self-serving mechanism - it profits off of clicks, views and downloads.
As such it is in its best interest to keep the apps that are downloaded most in circulation and to let those that aren't drop off into the depths of the bog.
Sure, you can TRY to find the game using the search engine - but given the number of games that use common keywords, the odds of finding what you want are next to none.
Especially considering most devices only show about 5 hits on screen at a time.
Even if the game got new content and a bunch more downloads, most people who played it would not download it again "Oh that game, that game was boring..."
Very few will consider it a second time "Huh, why is that on the front page again, lets check it out." considering very few apps get updates.
Its sort of a fire and forget market.
Which obviously leads to the alternate method to get downloads and views which is media exposure (I.E. the flappy bird effect)
If enough public media talks about your game, people WILL download it to see what the hell is up, especially if your game is free.
Course most of those views/downloads do not generate monetized revenue, so unless you game has any retention/content at this point it'll all die down as fast as it started.
You pretty much only have one shot. Think PC gamers are unforgiving? Mobile gamers are merciless. As they have no investment to tie them down.
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 21, 2014 14:03:55 GMT
I am far from a hardcore gamer. I have no issues with some F2p and mobile games. I never would have backed Godus if it had said to be one because i think it is lame to back a free game. This being said, Godus sucks as a F2p mobile game.
The only word I can say again is subtle, Godus is so aggressive in it's money grabbing that it lost this. They don't have anything in the game to merit this extreme money grabbing either. I have paid hundreds and hundreds to games that were just fun enough to merit it. Godus needs to make the game funner, and then the mobile F2p crowd will come and fill their pockets. Heck, make it fun enough, and I might be one of them.
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ghosrath
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Post by ghosrath on Aug 21, 2014 14:07:54 GMT
I too like to play the occasional F2P game on my phone, and i even don't mind spending some €€ on it.
The main thing about the games i do play on my phone is that they have a lot of content and are super-polished.
A half-baked game with hardly anything to do is not a game i see myself playing..
That said, i will try it when it comes to android (because iphone is the root of all evil!)
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 21, 2014 14:29:12 GMT
I think that they should just embrace the F2p of it in mobile and then they might be able to make a good F2p for mobile.
They also need to accept the fact that PC will never in any way be compatible. There is a reason why some things were never done before and that is because they don't work. Nice concept, but completely flawed. You must make the platform separate and build the PC game as you talked about, a sequel to Populous and not a mix of Farmville and Settlers Online.
They should also consider the fact that like the Sims if they make a great PC game, they would be able to add expansion packs later and build off their base game. Their mobile would be just that, a F2p game version of their PC game. The games can never never never meld together of it hurts both sides of them. They are oil and water and while oil can be great alone, and water can be great alone, when you mix them together in any capacity you just get gross gooey crap.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 21, 2014 14:37:56 GMT
I think that they should just embrace the F2p of it in mobile and then they might be able to make a good F2p for mobile. They also need to accept the fact that PC will never in any way be compatible. There is a reason why some things were never done before and that is because they don't work. Nice concept, but completely flawed. You must make the platform separate and build the PC game as you talked about, a sequel to Populous and not a mix of Farmville and Settlers Online. They should also consider the fact that like the Sims if they make a great PC game, they would be able to add expansion packs later and build off their base game. Their mobile would be just that, a F2p game version of their PC game. The games can never never never meld together of it hurts both sides of them. They are oil and water and while oil can be great alone, and water can be great alone, when you mix them together in any capacity you just get gross gooey crap. Here's the thing, they can't... The moment they officially announce that they can't do the PC side, they will be forced to do refunds. Which is something they can not afford to do. Doing so would also kick off half the internet (or atleast a significant portion of the backers and steam community), damning their reputation 'officially'. Yet at the same time they're legally bound to fullfill certain requirements for the mobile side due to their contract with DeNA (how I'd love to see such legal obligations officially entered into crowdfunding and early access...), and thus thats their priority. As I mentioned before, I don't know the details, we can only assume that Hubworld is part of it and people speculate that android is aswell (I don't know if we have that confirmed?), there might be other aspects we're not aware of. These are all bits that they are legally required to fullfill. So they will do so to the letter of those agreements. AND thats where it goes wrong. They are trying to fullfill their requirements to the letter. Rather than trying to create a functional product. Priorities are on the wrong part of the deal. If they would bother to create a good F2P mobile game, I'd atleast understand that part of it. I'd still be pissed off as one of the earlier supporters and as a PC player - since they lied to us about the whole ordeal... But atleast I could understand their decisions from a business level. The reality is that their product isn't exactly a success. And they are struggling to get that retention up. So how can we expect them to focus on their original backers when they can't even deliver a functional iOS game. Godus - proof of concept edition. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 21, 2014 14:48:44 GMT
I don't think they would be admitting to not doing the PC side, they would just be admitting they are two separate games. Fix the mobile, make your cash and then make a great PC game. They just need to embrace both of their platforms for the differences that they are and stop trying to claim we are nuts not wanting them to water both down to merge them.
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feanix
Suspected 22Cans staff
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Post by feanix on Aug 21, 2014 14:52:44 GMT
My girlfriend is playing a lot of godus. She's not a gamer and has no interest in console or PC games and to my knowledge this is the first game she's ever played. And She's pretty much addicted.
Now, personally, I'm not really the target demographic for Godus. I don't think I'll ever become addicted to playing it. But she is. And it's fascinating to me to be able to ask her why. Here are a few things I've learnt from my personal observation:
1) She doesn't care about anything but the mobile game. She doesn't read review sites, she doesn't communicate with other people playing the game. She is aware that these things and people exist, but she isn't interested.
2) She doesn't approach it as a game. Instead she focuses on the her followers with a huge amount of intensity. She spends ages watching them walk around. Her mind creates stories about them, pulling together the chance animation and interactions into some kind of soap opera. She feels real guilt about accidentally dropping a follower in the water. I don't think I've ever seen her look as guilty as when she meteored the Astari village.
3) She has spent about £12 at the last count, mostly on gems and belief.
4) She doesn't mind that she's essentially burnt through all the content. She's quite happy to just keep adding new settlements, keep sculpting away ad infinitum.
5) She's playing about 1-6 hours a day. Every day.
Honestly, I'm amazed. I was told there were people who approached games like this but I never expected to be living with one. She's enjoying herself a lot and I'm thrilled to be part of something that's bringing so much enjoyment to her day. But she's not like me and she's not like you guys. These mobile players are strange, silent beasts that do not approach games like we do. It coco-nuts. I've stopped trying to predict what they'll like because I think PC gamers just cannot understand them at all.
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ghosrath
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Post by ghosrath on Aug 21, 2014 14:54:49 GMT
Yet at the same time they're legally bound to fullfill certain requirements for the mobile side due to their contract with DeNA (how I'd love to see such legal obligations officially entered into crowdfunding and early access...), and thus thats their priority. As I mentioned before, I don't know the details, we can only assume that Hubworld is part of it and people speculate that android is aswell (I don't know if we have that confirmed?), there might be other aspects we're not aware of. These are all bits that they are legally required to fullfill. So they will do so to the letter of those agreements. AND thats where it goes wrong. They are trying to fullfill their requirements to the letter. Rather than trying to create a functional product. Priorities are on the wrong part of the deal. If they would bother to create a good F2P mobile game, I'd atleast understand that part of it. I'd still be pissed off as one of the earlier supporters and as a PC player - since they lied to us about the whole ordeal... But atleast I could understand their decisions from a business level. The reality is that their product isn't exactly a success. And they are struggling to get that retention up. So how can we expect them to focus on their original backers when they can't even deliver a functional iOS game. Godus - proof of concept edition. Sounds like a damn dangerous place to be in as a gamedeveloper with a half-finished product... |
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ghosrath
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Post by ghosrath on Aug 21, 2014 14:58:52 GMT
My girlfriend is playing a lot of godus. She's not a gamer and has no interest in console or PC games and to my knowledge this is the first game she's ever played. And She's pretty much addicted. Now, personally, I'm not really the target demographic for Godus. I don't think I'll ever become addicted to playing it. But she is. And it's fascinating to me to be able to ask her why. Here are a few things I've learnt from my personal observation: 1) She doesn't care about anything but the mobile game. She doesn't read review sites, she doesn't communicate with other people playing the game. She is aware that these things and people exist, but she isn't interested. 2) She doesn't approach it as a game. Instead she focuses on the her followers with a huge amount of intensity. She spends ages watching them walk around. Her mind creates stories about them, pulling together the chance animation and interactions into some kind of soap opera. She feels real guilt about accidentally dropping a follower in the water. I don't think I've ever seen her look as guilty as when she meteored the Astari village. 3) She has spent about £12 at the last count, mostly on gems and belief. 4) She doesn't mind that she's essentially burnt through all the content. She's quite happy to just keep adding new settlements, keep sculpting away ad infinitum. 5) She's playing about 1-6 hours a day. Every day. Honestly, I'm amazed. I was told there were people who approached games like this but I never expected to be living with one. She's enjoying herself a lot and I'm thrilled to be part of something that's bringing so much enjoyment to her day. But she's not like me and she's not like you guys. These mobile players are strange, silent beasts that do not approach games like we do. It coco-nuts. I've stopped trying to predict what they'll like because I think PC gamers just cannot understand them at all. My wife can do that with her sims as well. I do not only have to hear about her co-workers lives everyday, but about her sims as well... :S |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 21, 2014 15:20:09 GMT
I don't think they would be admitting to not doing the PC side, they would just be admitting they are two separate games. Fix the mobile, make your cash and then make a great PC game. They just need to embrace both of their platforms for the differences that they are and stop trying to claim we are nuts not wanting them to water both down to merge them. They would - as they lack the resources to do both. They've already very clearly stated this. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 21, 2014 15:29:06 GMT
My girlfriend is playing a lot of godus. She's not a gamer and has no interest in console or PC games and to my knowledge this is the first game she's ever played. And She's pretty much addicted. Now, personally, I'm not really the target demographic for Godus. I don't think I'll ever become addicted to playing it. But she is. And it's fascinating to me to be able to ask her why. Here are a few things I've learnt from my personal observation: 1) She doesn't care about anything but the mobile game. She doesn't read review sites, she doesn't communicate with other people playing the game. She is aware that these things and people exist, but she isn't interested. 2) She doesn't approach it as a game. Instead she focuses on the her followers with a huge amount of intensity. She spends ages watching them walk around. Her mind creates stories about them, pulling together the chance animation and interactions into some kind of soap opera. She feels real guilt about accidentally dropping a follower in the water. I don't think I've ever seen her look as guilty as when she meteored the Astari village. 3) She has spent about £12 at the last count, mostly on gems and belief. 4) She doesn't mind that she's essentially burnt through all the content. She's quite happy to just keep adding new settlements, keep sculpting away ad infinitum. 5) She's playing about 1-6 hours a day. Every day. Honestly, I'm amazed. I was told there were people who approached games like this but I never expected to be living with one. She's enjoying herself a lot and I'm thrilled to be part of something that's bringing so much enjoyment to her day. But she's not like me and she's not like you guys. These mobile players are strange, silent beasts that do not approach games like we do. It coco-nuts. I've stopped trying to predict what they'll like because I think PC gamers just cannot understand them at all. Yes, but she is not the majority or you guys would be rolling in the cash. They is what the bottom line is all about in business. Money. Make the majority happy and make profit. Make a few happy and fail. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 21, 2014 15:29:32 GMT
**snip** It coco-nuts. I've stopped trying to predict what they'll like because I think PC gamers just cannot understand them at all. Thats for sure... These people have VASTLY different interests and desires. Which is one of the things we've been saying from the start when Peter / 22cans claimed that they are making a game that *EVERYONE* can enjoy. These interests simply do not mix. As a bit of personal interest - you say she's burnt through all the content and is just expanding on her existing status? Could you provide me/us with some specifics, like did she unlock all the cards or leave any of them out, what is her total amount of followers/wheat/ore registered on the bars. Also, could you perhaps ask her what she would like to see in the game (as she seems to be the very target audience that Peter is going for right now...) See if she's interested in a little thought experiment to find out what SHE would want from the game. I agree with you that this behaviour is very interesting to observe. While I personally dispise the actions that companies take in effectively exploiting these people. The people themselves and their behaviour is fascinating. And I'd very much love to find a midway path to have my own interests and that of people like your girlfriend join up. I can only conclude that given Peter's own desires and visions this is a MUST if we ever want Godus to become anything like what we'd enjoy. But as you point out, these people just play the game and do their own thing, they don't really look on the internet for reviews and such - so its really hard to get their input on this. If you can provide us (and indirectly Peter and 22cans as a whole) with any significant insights on this. About what she'd like to see (or absolutely wouldn't like to see). That'd be very much appreciated. I think a very big question there is (since that to me seems to be the most obvious solution to the current balancing problems) - what is her stance on resource requirements. Would she find it bothersome of her followers would need wood and/or stone to build and expand? Or would she prefer the game to stay as it is, a very simplified mechanic. Qetesh - Actually... She IS the majority when it comes to mobile games. What feanix describes is the very target audience of most mobile games. People that just play for their own reasons not caring a thing about the world around them. She effectively won't get 'bored' and as long as she keeps playing she'll occasionally drop money in the bank. Multiply that by hundreds, thousands or even more players and you get a steady stream of income. While she might not be the 'big money' whale spender. The whales are a minority in terms of audience (even if their expenses make them a significant portion of income). A business is all about reliable and consistent income. If a whale drops out, you lose a large portion of income, if a small spender like feanix ' GF drops out, there's thousands more fish in the sea like her. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 21, 2014 15:39:55 GMT
I disagree, if she was, they would be making money hand over fist. I am their target audience as a casual gamer. I am not a hardcore gamer at all. She is an exception to the rule that enjoys playing a game that has no fun in it. Most F2p gamers like games with fun that suck them in and then gradually hit their pocket book, Godus is not subtle. This is why I disagree that she is the majority. If she was, they would be making so much cash, our whole discussion would be moot, just ask King. www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/08/candy-crush-addict-reward_n_3561658.htmlAlso, I have a business, it is all about profit. You need to make sure you bring in enough to cover your bills and make a profit or there is no reason to be in business. In the scope of things it matters not whether I like playing Godus or his GF likes playing it, it matters how much profit they are making from the game. If you don't have profit, you will end up shutting down your doors. I am also going to say, I would love almost any game Lord Ba'al made too.  It does not make it a great game. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 21, 2014 15:44:15 GMT
You're argueing that Godus isn't like Candy Crush - I'm argueing that she's the target audience that Peter seems to be going for.
We're having a different argument =P
Yes Godus isn't like Candy Crush... It lacks the intensity for it and it lasts far too long.
Games like Candy Crush are all about instant gratification - something that by its very concept will be hard to attain in a game that proclaims it will be played for years to come and will never have you "restart".
And apparently, 22cans is making enough profit off of these people not to be openly worried.
We must be missing pieces of the puzzle.
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 21, 2014 15:47:30 GMT
For me it is a debate and not an argument. LOL.
I merely question that she is the target audience. I don't agree she is, I also don't feel the PM has made a game to merit such praise from said target audience. I also stated that if he had since there is such a HUGE amount of said target audience that this would be moot because 22cans would be covered in the greenbacks.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 21, 2014 15:51:03 GMT
Only if these people cash out. Someone who is satisfied sitting down and just fiddling with the toys available will not go out to buy more toys.
They won't be spending more money. (Which apparently is what Peter wants... Otherwise he'd be giving more incentive to do so.)
Apparently Peter is more than satisfied to have these people that just fiddle around and drop small amounts of cash - and APPARENTLY, he can sustain a business model off of this.
It might be that we're all making the mistake in assuming that he WANTS to make the big bucks.
For a business to function, it only needs to break even overall or perhaps have a small amount of profit to build from.
You don't *need* to make Candy Crush sized profits to be a functional business.
It still begs the question why he went for Kickstarter/crowdfunding in the first place and why he entered Steam Early Access...
But who knows, maybe he regrets that decision and would desperately like to get rid of all of us =P
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 21, 2014 15:59:26 GMT
You are right, I am assuming they are not rolling in profits or even doing more than breaking even at this point. I could be wrong, but as a business if they are, I would say that they should not be afraid to state so. It would back up their concept of the game as it stands. Instead there has been no mention of this profitability that would merit the value of the game today.
Without proof of profit, then I am concerned what will fund the PC sprint? If you have profit from the mobile then give us the peace of mind to know that the PC sprint is doable financially. If you don't have profit then it is as I said and they did not hit their target audience but a rare few who cannot sustain them fiscally.
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It does not make it a great game. 
