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Post by 13thGeneral on Oct 6, 2014 17:59:56 GMT
I made a similar request in July, even so far as submitting it to George via email; granted mine wasn't an expansive diatribe, but just a simple request for a more frequent dev blog/journal. Seems they don't really understand thier own development methods, or everything really is based around smoke and mirrors to pad their whallets. I'm guessing you didn't receive a response, then? Not really, other than the general "good idea, it's been noted". Of course, as I said, my request was more of a very brief suggestion probably no more than a few sentences - so it didn't really require or warrant a long response. As for a response in the way of them actioning the suggeetion, well they have not put it into effect yet; we're not going to count the update release notes as being the same thing, though closely related, it's not quite what we're asking for in this regard. Although, it's still not the first time the idea has been mentioned or tossed out there, so we're still pitching balls at them and they're continuing to act like they haven't even stepped to the mound yet. |
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Post by Danjal on Oct 6, 2014 18:16:13 GMT
Long story short - they're buying for time again.
Giving out promises rather than results.
Its better to ask for forgiveness and all that right?
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Post by hardly on Oct 6, 2014 18:27:42 GMT
Yawn. I thought the most significant point was George saying it won't be very interesting because they are still focusing on reality. There is the truth my friends. When will the focus shift? I'm picking never.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Oct 6, 2014 20:45:59 GMT
Focusing on reality?? What does that even mean? So what we are all and have been talking about is all fantasy apparently.
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Post by hardly on Oct 6, 2014 21:23:00 GMT
Focusing on reality?? What does that even mean? So what we are all and have been talking about is all fantasy apparently. Sorry "reality" was supposed to be "mobile". Damn you iphone predicative text. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Oct 6, 2014 21:50:30 GMT
Focusing on reality?? What does that even mean? So what we are all and have been talking about is all fantasy apparently. It's a spoof on this (or was in my mind, was writing this as Hardly responded): Please bear in mind that a lot of these updates will be focused on mobile, but if you're okay with us sharing that reality then I agree it'd be a good way for us to be a bit more transparent. Please bear in mind that a lot of these updates will be focused on...sharing that reality. A lot of these updates will be focused on [the] mobile...reality. With the way PC's been handled (or not handled, as it may be asserted), it's not too farfetched. Mobile is the [current] reality of 22cans' development until they decide to switch back around to PC, which could just as well be never at the rate things have been going. What's really frustrating about this situation is not only that they've ditched the PC community, but if I had to guess, given their silence towards the mobile community as well, they simply don't seem to think mobile users give enough of a damn to keep on the up and up with work concerning the game, except where critical bugs or big content updates are concerned. It's pretty obvious if we look at what happened when the iOS 8 bugs arose, suddenly they start pouring out information concerning their efforts to address it and warnings to not run the game due to instability and so on. This proves that, to a certain degree, they are fully capable of providing information at a rapid rate, even more frequently than we ever requested. Sept. 17, 2014.Sept. 18, 2014.Sept. 22, 2014.Sept. 22, 2014.Sept. 22, 2014.Sept. 23, 2014.Sept. 26, 2014.Sept. 30, 2014.Oct. 1, 2014.Oct. 2, 2014.The common theme? Obviously the mobile focus, since that's where they still are, but unless I'm mistaken, this is somewhat more than we got even when slightly more frequent patches were coming. Now, maybe that's simply because PC has yet to be the focus with the CMs around, but even then, the substantial information is sparse between all of these. All it is is concerning content and fixes, which I guess makes sense from the perspective that the kiddy pool of a game they have on mobile is considered released, but I'd say that even the quality of info provided in the content updates is minimal. It throws around a basic overview, but it can't elaborate on what it all entails, e.g. what makes super settlements/abodes super, how is comet different from meteor, are the astari still competed with through happiness, why was dig relegated to wayworld, does cliff sculpting differ from multi-layer sculpting, etc. Altogether, the small amounts of information we do receive show either heavily underdeveloped/undesigned content, hesitance to reveal the details of anything described therein due to the reason preceding this, a belief that the audience doesn't care for the details, the desire to keep it a surprise, and/or that they think the audience will rip them a new one if they don't meet every detail of what's described. Chances are it's a solid mixture of all of those, but none of those are very good reasons, as far as I'm concerned. Underdeveloped/undesigned? Don't talk about it until you have the details set enough that you're willing to subject them through our trial by fire, and don't assume we're going to expect them in the exact form described. All you need to do is preface the details with what you preface the basics with, to be confirmed/solidified/whatever. It's not that hard. If you're spending more time trying to out think the audience and how they'll respond to information, stop, and ask the stupidly obvious questions like why and if it's because of something bad, figure out what's bad and how to improve things, if it's good, then rethink why it's good. Your good != our good. If it's getting additional info to supplement presented info when faced with questions, great, if it's cutting the fat away to avoid misinterpretations or presenting a skeleton because meat's being processed, go back to the drawing board. Less info=more ungrounded misinterpretation. More info=more grounded misinterpretation. Pick your poison. Here's a hint, it's easier to uproot and resolve rational misinterpretations than irrational ones. This shouldn't need elaborate exposition as to why. |
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Post by Danjal on Oct 6, 2014 23:03:01 GMT
The only problem I have with that assertion is the likely (or unlikely?) situation that they will at some point become willing or able to return focus to PC at all. The way I see it, the further down the iOS path they go without devoting any resources to PC, the harder it'd be to create anything thats even remotely adequate to the standards of the PC platform. Its not just that they're developing a mobile game, they are developing a *freemium* mobile game. Short of giving the players the keys to the castle and circumventing some of the key freemium elements, there's little they can do to improve that kinda gameplay on the PC platform. Which begs the ultimate question - is that ever going to be worth $20? And thats what it all comes down to now isn't it? The fact that for well over 20 months now, 22cans have upheld the unlikely story that they are developing a PC/mobile cross-developed title - when in reality they have been developing a mobile exclusive title for AT LEAST half that time, if not longer. We *know* the following timeline with reasonable certainty (the little bit that is secondhand knowledge shows little reason to be disbelieved): Now take this all into account together with what Gmr Leon posts about 22cans responding rapidly when they need to. Whether it is out of incompetence or malice, its pretty clear that there are some conflicts of interest when it comes to the development of Godus. Given what we've heard from some of the developers themselves as they have visited here on these very boards, some of them may not entirely agree with how things are handled within the 22cans office. But as Peter is the one with final say on everything, and they have to pay the rent some way, they often decide to just deal with it instead. The main focus for many of us to push for weekly updates, frequent experimental builds and transparancy of information is ofcourse so we have a clue what is going on. Its not far from everyones minds that other SEA titles (chief among which in recent history being Spacebase DF-9, a title of which the developers previously claimed that they had wanted to continue working on it for atleast 5 years) have met an untimely demise. Making any promises of "one day we will..." or "just have patience it'll be beautiful/delicious" to be less than reassuring. A bit question is why it is that 22cans takes so much time on releasing updates and information. A popular bit of speculation is that 22cans is ran like a corporations, with seperate departments doing their own thing and everyone having to go past Peter Molyneux for approval. A setup that is increasingly impeded not only because Peter Molyneux is wearing too many hats (He's the main designer, he's also the main PR guy as he handles all the interviews and he's the CEO having to sign off on everything), but also additionally complicated by the fact that Peter has a hard time dealing with certain issues (namely critics on his creation) and has a tendency to hide from that. Now I think its safe to say that one of the key features that SEA thrives in is the consumer <=> developer interaction. There's a direct line of feedback on updates and content injections and the consumer has a direct line to provide feedback both on decisions that have been made or will be made. One may argue that SEA's players act as QA for the development, as they are intended to be the target audience and thus are most benefiting that such quality is assured. Which is where things get difficult for 22cans, as their product is one distinctly different from that which most SEA users are looking for / paid for. That in turn causes a valuable resource to turn into a drain in resources instead, as 22cans not only has to implement a dedicated internal QA team (something few indie devs have the manpower or budget for), but also have to employ a few CM's to pacify this justifiably angered audience. A problem increasingly aggravated as 22cans insists on sending out PR and marketing fluff rather than providing results. In short, Godus' development is being treated as if its a traditionally developed title that will not see the public untill its actual release. Even though it in reality is already in the hands of their audience. Any and all PR/marketing fluff applied to an unwitting audience that may result in sales is directly converted into more pitchforks for the angry mob as these consumers come to realize what it is they paid for. The most recent Yogscast video being one of the main contenders in that - notice how Peter steers them away from all the 'negative' content and uses cheats to keep the Yogs busy. So, short of coming clean, 22cans is stuck. Yet coming clean may just lose them their business entirely as such a media stink may just draw the attention of either Apple (which TOS specifically forbids beta titles) or Valve (which in the past has taken SEA titles down that were less than truthful). Making it in 22cans best interest to stay under the radar of both corporate giants and hope that they remain unnoticed untill such a time that they can internally resolve these issues. As up till now few customers that have tried, have been able to get any traction be it through legal means or by attempting to inform either of these corporate monoliths. Its safe to say that for the (unwitting/deceived) consumer, the best thing that can happen right now is a big media stink - as short of that, there seems to be little that will motivate 22cans to alter their habits. Personally I hope that 22cans WILL come clean and lays out a solid plan going forward. I would love to see them salvage what they can from Godus and dedicate/hire one or two people to the focus on PC. Releasing the BFE content (enabling us to alter the ingame balances, aswell as providing us with tools such as a level editor for voyages initially but potentially more eventually) and adapting/converting other content to a more suitable PC-nature. I'm thinking some of the following to be very much "within reasonable reach": - Converting some of the existing assets to a less condescending/immature feel, turn gems into some form of divine/sacrificial currency to reflect the acquisition method (potentially tie in good/evil morality later), rename and alter stickers to the actual resources they reflect (and eventually alter the acquisition method to be more logical), use "non-5-year-old" naming conventions for features (i.e. no 'meanies')
- After such relatively easy cosmetic changes are done, the next step is to make the overall game less condescending aswell - which means making the tutorial less forced, enabling savegame manipulation specifically for the PC platform (save/back up multiple worlds without the need to go into the files), and altering simple mechanics to reflect the PC nature (followers dig up chests)
- And after that its more in-depth PC focus, to move the game away from the freemium mobile route.
Allow PC players to place/move the in-world structures such as temples, Pit of Doom and beacons.
Being able to place/move beacons would ultimately pave the way for a potential level editor for the playable worlds or even for procedurally generated maps and modding.
Other main game features could similarly be 'opened up' to pave the way towards modding, allowing the community to further self-manage these issues where 22cans doesn't have the time or resources.
This all ofcourse relies heavily on the cooperation and flexibility within the 22cans office aswell as the willingness of Peter to admit that what he originally sold and set out to create and what he has in front of him right now are not the same product. It may hold merit in its own right, but it isn't the product he set out to make and that combined with the extensive subterfuge is why people are now angry. He messed up and like any adult he needs to deal with those decisions. Hiding from it does not make it go away.
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Post by Danjal on Oct 7, 2014 18:22:28 GMT
Something interesting to note regarding weekly/frequent updates.
Did you know Starbound is working with a nightly branch where they update the most recent changes to the game *every night*.
Yea... 22cans could definitely learn a thing or two from their competition, be it Starbound, Stonehearth or any of the others.
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Post by engarde on Oct 8, 2014 7:26:12 GMT
So as an optin I'd expect nightly builds to be unstable, but unstable for godus means losing hundreds of hours of time to expand to the current limits. WHich suggests that we have a really unstable game framework here.
But 22cans have made both optin and non-optin save destroying unstable offerings.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Oct 8, 2014 12:48:39 GMT
So as an optin I'd expect nightly builds to be unstable, but unstable for godus means losing hundreds of hours of time to expand to the current limits. WHich suggests that we have a really unstable game framework here. But 22cans have made both optin and non-optin save destroying unstable offerings. I really don't understand people getting upset about losing hours of work in game when they participate in the dev build opt-in release; that's the nature of dev builds. This is one of those times I would say it's acceptable to use the phrase, "you don't understand early access". Not that I'm saying this applies to you, hardly, just that I keep seeing people complain about it - mostly on Steam - and it really bugs me. With that said, you are right though; if both public and opt-in release branches break the game, that doesn't bode well for the underlying core framework. |
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Post by engarde on Oct 8, 2014 14:28:17 GMT
Hours is one thing, weeks is another.
Every single major issue I've seen in godus has needed a start from 2 followers and do everything again, that's a very different issue from losing a few hours work.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Oct 8, 2014 16:27:33 GMT
I agree with Engarde. If the game's pacing weren't so glacial, it would be nothing to complain about, but considering that it is, it's kind of insane to expect us to be willing to spend 40+ hours each restart just to see, oh, yeah, bug here.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Oct 8, 2014 16:38:43 GMT
I agree with Engarde. If the game's pacing weren't so glacial, it would be nothing to complain about, but considering that it is, it's kind of insane to expect us to be willing to spend 40+ hours each restart just to see, oh, yeah, bug here. In which case, i suggest you wait for the main branch to be updated and disregard the Opt-In branch. |
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Post by Danjal on Oct 8, 2014 16:47:52 GMT
I agree with Engarde. If the game's pacing weren't so glacial, it would be nothing to complain about, but considering that it is, it's kind of insane to expect us to be willing to spend 40+ hours each restart just to see, oh, yeah, bug here. In which case, i suggest you wait for the main branch to be updated and disregard the Opt-In branch. Which would change the glacial pacing how exactly? Not to mention, every major update the main branch also has you restarting your world - you just end up restarting less frequent. You also end up playing less frequent since there's nothing to play... |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Oct 8, 2014 16:49:26 GMT
I agree with Engarde. If the game's pacing weren't so glacial, it would be nothing to complain about, but considering that it is, it's kind of insane to expect us to be willing to spend 40+ hours each restart just to see, oh, yeah, bug here. In which case, i suggest you wait for the main branch to be updated and disregard the Opt-In branch. Yeah, I can see where you're coming from there, but as others have mentioned here, even that hasn't proven entirely stable. Plus, the balance doesn't exactly differ much either way. ~shrug~ For now, it's a lose-lose until GodusInspector updates to the latest version or the BFE is released. |
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Post by Crumpy Six on Oct 8, 2014 16:54:15 GMT
In which case, i suggest you wait for the main branch to be updated and disregard the Opt-In branch. Which would change the glacial pacing how exactly? Not to mention, every major update the main branch also has you restarting your world - you just end up restarting less frequent. You also end up playing less frequent since there's nothing to play... To be fair, the glacial pacing is a separate issue to the instability of opt-in branches. For ages we were begging for access to buggy opt-in builds so we could have a role in testing and contribute to QA, so I think it's a bit unfair to turn on 22Cans for giving us exactly that, however frustrating it is to actually encounter game-breaking bugs in practice. Also, restarting the world less frequently is exactly what you're after isn't it? |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Oct 8, 2014 17:04:43 GMT
I don't know how viable it would be, but if it were possible to maintain stable and opt-in saves, outside of backing up each save, that might help in this regard a little. Assuming both saves don't get broken somewhere in the process. Either way, as I said, this wouldn't be a complaint point as much if it weren't for the existing state of the game.
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Post by Danjal on Oct 8, 2014 18:02:21 GMT
Which would change the glacial pacing how exactly? Not to mention, every major update the main branch also has you restarting your world - you just end up restarting less frequent. You also end up playing less frequent since there's nothing to play... To be fair, the glacial pacing is a separate issue to the instability of opt-in branches. For ages we were begging for access to buggy opt-in builds so we could have a role in testing and contribute to QA, so I think it's a bit unfair to turn on 22Cans for giving us exactly that, however frustrating it is to actually encounter game-breaking bugs in practice. Also, restarting the world less frequently is exactly what you're after isn't it? Its a circular argument that ignores some of the "problems" with the development of Godus. The desire for opt-in branches is so that as a community we can track the development of Godus and provide feedback - rather than waiting 6 months for a bulk update and then being ignored because 22cans is too busy digging their way out of the pile of support tickets. The poor pacing and balancing are directly related to the desire for opt-in, not to have opt-in function as a singleway piece of glass, but rather as a two-way line of communications (as was originally described on the kickstarter aswell as how crowdfunding and the early access model are designed). To ignore one side of the issue, and 'technically' fullfilling the other side gets nobody anywhere now does it? The whole point of having frequent/weekly/nightly updates and a clear roadmap is so that people have a clue what direction Godus is taking and that those who have bought the game know what they can expect aswell as provide accurate feedback. While offering those that have not yet bought the game a clear line of information to base their purchasing decision on. Contrary to the vague PR-hype that has been upheld for the initial 2 years of development, which is purely targeted to get people to buy a game that is not actually being made or delivered. Therefor saying "You have your opt-in branch, now stop whining. If you don't like bugs don't play the game." isn't particularly helping anyone. |
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Post by hardly on Oct 8, 2014 18:12:33 GMT
So as an optin I'd expect nightly builds to be unstable, but unstable for godus means losing hundreds of hours of time to expand to the current limits. WHich suggests that we have a really unstable game framework here. But 22cans have made both optin and non-optin save destroying unstable offerings. I really don't understand people getting upset about losing hours of work in game when they participate in the dev build opt-in release; that's the nature of dev builds. This is one of those times I would say it's acceptable to use the phrase, "you don't understand early access". Not that I'm saying this applies to you, hardly, just that I keep seeing people complain about it - mostly on Steam - and it really bugs me. With that said, you are right though; if both public and opt-in release branches break the game, that doesn't bode well for the underlying core framework. I don't think you mean me. I only play the main branch, GODUS isn't exciting enough for me to rush out and play the opt-in branch. I completely agree with you that it's fine for optin to be unstable. My complaints about saves were related to the mobile beta playing I did. I agree with those saying that the glacial pace aggregates any issues of losing your save. GODUS is probably the slowest game I have ever played if you count downtime. So therefore the loss is so much more significant than other games where you might be able to recover you're position in 5-10 hours of play. |
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Post by Crumpy Six on Oct 8, 2014 18:18:14 GMT
Danjal, I'm not arguing that the opt-in branch meets what was originally promised, or that feedback gained from it is in any way taken on board by 22Cans, or that it is managed in a way that demonstrates any particular value to anyone (either the community or 22Cans). We've seen minimal evidence of any of this. But you were criticising the opt-in builds for requiring a restart and being slow and unstable. Yes, they are all these things, but that's because it's the unstable opt-in built. It was always going to be that way. Community feedback has consistently been that we WANT to see the unstable test branches and the bugs/restarts aren't a big deal.
I was a bit blase in saying the opt-ins are "exactly what we asked for" but you're moving the goal posts. If you want to make a case against the opt-in builds, pick a better argument than "it made me restart".
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