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Post by hardly on Oct 2, 2014 22:03:01 GMT
I haven't read all this but Aynen has the cause and effect backwards.
Peter puts a shop in GODUS PC - fans go apeshit, 22cans go silent
Peter makes sculpting physically painful - fans go apeshit, 22cans go silent
Peter makes the decision to shift development focus to mobile (reportedly against samvt' advice) - fans go apeshit, 22cans go silent
Peter continues to prioritise mobile development over pc - fans go apeshit, 22cans go silent.
22cans arent hiding because of our behaviour, 22cans are silent because there is no justification for their behaviour so they don't even try and justify it. It's likely the reason samvt stopped posting Nov 13-March 14 is because he refused to front for peter's I'll considered and cynical decision to focus on mobile.
The cycle is 22cans repeatedly making the same mistake and therefore getting the same outcome. The community isn't perfect either but we have no control over this cycle.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 22:57:06 GMT
And... I've finally encountered someone that's more infuriating than Denny Crane to talk to. It's like reality is warping around the forum.
I must confess that I am guilty. Yes, i am responsible for everything happening since DENA-Deal. I was one of those people asking about DENA and if it's an indication for F2P. Now i can see that this question lead to them going silent and throw their whole design concepts overboard. They turned from designing the regenesis of pc godgames to duct-tape a f2p nonsense.
When Alpha came out it was again me asking why it looks like f2p, and again they witdrew (comprehensible), went silent for two month, and released another absurd piece of software - this time with a gemshop. I think you can guess what happend next ... yes, again it was me complaining about f2p, and again they went silence.
I am guilty.
Aynen i thank you - you enlightened me. I was the one who upset his highness Sir Peter of the ambiguous word. I should have known ... never ... really never ... speak to his highness. And much more important, never say the truth. Our job is to hail the king (and give the money). Oh damn, I think I have just triggered a decade of silence. Sorry guys.
I am guilty. (btw Selling shirts with front "I am guilty" and back "killing Godus" 49$ handsigned - Stretchgoal at 200K - I will talk to EA and kill Dungeon Keeper). Addons a beechnut (grows into a beech) 9.99$ and a sticker of a beechnut day tree 95 Gems or 20.000.000 belief.
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Post by Danjal on Oct 2, 2014 23:17:09 GMT
Thanks for that @sundance - I needed that.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Oct 2, 2014 23:24:19 GMT
I'm so so sorry!
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Post by Danjal on Oct 2, 2014 23:41:48 GMT
I haven't read all this but Aynen has the cause and effect backwards. - Peter puts a shop in GODUS PC - fans go apeshit, 22cans go silent
- Peter makes sculpting physically painful - fans go apeshit, 22cans go silent
- Peter makes the decision to shift development focus to mobile (reportedly against samvt' advice) - fans go apeshit, 22cans go silent
- Peter continues to prioritise mobile development over pc - fans go apeshit, 22cans go silent.
22cans arent hiding because of our behaviour, 22cans are silent because there is no justification for their behaviour so they don't even try and justify it. It's likely the reason samvt stopped posting Nov 13-March 14 is because he refused to front for peter's I'll considered and cynical decision to focus on mobile. The cycle is 22cans repeatedly making the same mistake and therefore getting the same outcome. The community isn't perfect either but we have no control over this cycle. As I posted on the steam boards - I'll retreat myself from that discussion there and I'll see how things go. I just hope that everyone keeps the timeline as put aptly by hardly in mind. Every time the community responded negatively - its because of something 22cans did, and did knowing how the community would perceive it. Be positive all you want - but don't forget the past... Just because people want to play nice, doesn't make it so that 22cans doesn't have to deliver the product that they *SOLD* to us. And if the only alternative proves to be that 22cans gets proven as a fraud with all following consequences, then that is a price worth paying. Its not something that should be avoided at all costs for the vein hope that perhaps 5 years from now Peter will be in a good mood and throw us a bone. Their actions brought us here - their actions can get us out. Its ridiculous that the community needs to jump through hoops to even GET a response in the first place. Peter may have made a few good games in the past, that doesn't make him some kind of god or deity worth worshipping. Nor does it excuse his continued insults and mistakes. Which conveniently always get swept under the rug when the community gets painted as the bad guys. If anything, I'm glad that for now atleast, people got talking again instead of blindly praising how wonderful it is that we received word from Peter Molyneux. The ironic comparison to "The word of God" comes to mind.... Aswell as a variety of comparisons to the mercurial Greek and Roman deities that granted boons in exchange for worship. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Oct 2, 2014 23:57:49 GMT
If anything, I'm glad that for now atleast, people got talking again instead of blindly praising how wonderful it is that we received word from Peter Molyneux. The ironic comparison to "The word of God" comes to mind.... Aswell as a variety of comparisons to the mercurial Greek and Roman deities that granted boons in exchange for worship. Was anyone doing that? As far as I saw it was more, hokay, thanks, now when can we get some answers? =O I can't think of any consistent behavior from any users that fits your description of being positive and ignoring what's led up to this whole situation. If anything there's been a steady skepticism over the whole thing, from myself included (except I think of this somewhat as a fun social game to see how far taking some approaches can go, so as much as I want answers, I'll get my kicks either way). The only people I can think of that have ever appeared blind to the situation have been the infrequent I LOVE THIS GAME OH MAN YOU GUYS ARE JUST TERRIBLE AT IT posters. |
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Post by Danjal on Oct 3, 2014 0:06:32 GMT
Thats what it felt like to me - "Oh hey, Peter himself responded!"
Skirting around and ignoring all the issues at hand, people walking on tiptoes not trying to offend...
Yes, Peter send a message... ONE message... We've yet to see actual results.
Yet that one message was being upheld as the direct sign that all would be well.
I just have a hard time forgetting 20 months worth of actions by 22cans to be that positive about a single message...
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Post by hardly on Oct 3, 2014 0:08:42 GMT
TBH it's quite amazing the community is as polite as we are. After all Peter did promote pc GODUS as the first priority and for the last six months at least we've been playing a port of mobile GODUS. It's not like 22cans transgressions are in the past, they are ongoing.
Aynen acts like the video we haven't got yet is some great gift, it's not. First of all we asked for a more genuine engagement - hasn't happened. The video is a compromise and guess what? The answers will almost certainly be - we are working on mobile for the foreseeable future, hubworld is delayed, PC sprint looking like early next year after we all take 5 weeks leave, can't share details, haven't thought about PC much.
If this seems harsh to any 22cans staff or apologists out there then feel free to prove me wrong. Been thinking about PC GODUS? Cool give me some details. I do give you kudos where it's deserved but I've also learned to to expect the worst.
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Post by hardly on Oct 3, 2014 0:11:19 GMT
Thats what it felt like to me - "Oh hey, Peter himself responded!" Skirting around and ignoring all the issues at hand, people walking on tiptoes not trying to offend... Yes, Peter send a message... ONE message... We've yet to see actual results. Yet that one message was being upheld as the direct sign that all would be well. I just have a hard time forgetting 20 months worth of actions by 22cans to be that positive about a single message... Lol that is the joke. Gmr Leon got a personal email from peter telling him they'd do something in the future which they haven't done yet and we are supposed to take that as fulfilling their end of the bargain. Ridiculous. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Oct 3, 2014 0:13:10 GMT
If anything, I'm glad that for now atleast, people got talking again instead of blindly praising how wonderful it is that we received word from Peter Molyneux. The ironic comparison to "The word of God" comes to mind.... Aswell as a variety of comparisons to the mercurial Greek and Roman deities that granted boons in exchange for worship. Was anyone doing that? As far as I saw it was more, hokay, thanks, now when can we get some answers? =O I can't think of any consistent behavior from any users that fits your description of being positive and ignoring what's led up to this whole situation. If anything there's been a steady skepticism over the whole thing, from myself included (except I think of this somewhat as a fun social game to see how far taking some approaches can go, so as much as I want answers, I'll get my kicks either way). The only people I can think of that have ever appeared blind to the situation have been the infrequent I LOVE THIS GAME OH MAN YOU GUYS ARE JUST TERRIBLE AT IT posters. I think he's talking about the few people complaining about negative posts. That, and just about every word Aynen posted in that thread kicked off this firestorm. Mostly, it was Aynen that came in and started talking down to everyone. Nothing gets people's hackles raised like someone walking in and acting superior. Every time we've interacted, it's been like talking to someone from an alternate reality. The volume of ego, misrepresentation, and superiority that goes into every post is almost a thing of beauty if it didn't insult our intelligence so bad. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Oct 3, 2014 0:21:06 GMT
Thats what it felt like to me - "Oh hey, Peter himself responded!" Skirting around and ignoring all the issues at hand, people walking on tiptoes not trying to offend... Yes, Peter send a message... ONE message... We've yet to see actual results. Yet that one message was being upheld as the direct sign that all would be well. I just have a hard time forgetting 20 months worth of actions by 22cans to be that positive about a single message... Lol that is the joke. Gmr Leon got a personal email from peter telling him they'd do something in the future which they haven't done yet and we are supposed to take that as fulfilling their end of the bargain. Ridiculous.  Weeird. That's not how I've read any of it at all. I just read flat responses from it. Maybe you're talking more about Aynen's posts as Earl noted above me*? I pretty much gathered from reading back over the discussion that it was Aynen's good intent going all sorts of awry again that led to the surge in activity in the thread, but everyone else I read as keeping themselves in check after tossing up the notice that I'd gotten info from Peter. Hell, I can review the posts immediately following my own and I still read them that way. That's why I'm pretty confused here. *I don't see the people trying to be wary as being all ohmygoshpeteyresponds everyonekeepyournosedown actalltactful. I do find their behavior kind of odd though, considering we've pretty much got solid verification from the whole video approach being taken that they're not going to go after a forums approach. Heck, the followup dialogue approach hasn't even been fully settled as far as I can see, especially given Matthew's posts concerning trying mixed media methods. |
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Post by Danjal on Oct 3, 2014 0:23:18 GMT
The whole communications deal is another great example.
Yes we asked for improved communications - because the idea was that if better *transparant* communications were upheld around the design of Godus.
That this would lead to a better understanding and status quo between the developers and the community.
Instead we got better organized fluffballs and more frequent empty promises.
The core purpose for commmunications to lead to results and mutual understanding?
Didn't happen.
So while George and Matthew did a magnificent job - Peter and the cans didn't change between the last AMA and now.
And we're currently entering a similar event.
Wanting positive reinforcement is a nice concept - yet when nothing about the game warrents positive reinforcement because its a freemium moneygrab.
Then it makes things pretty darned hard.
And the whole "Well I paid for a Peter Molyneux game, and I'll see it through to the end." is complete and utter garbage.
This freemium excuse posing as a godgame isn't what comes to mind when thinking about the games Molyneux made in the past.
And the idea that "regenesis" somehow justifies this is even more ridiculous.
It'd be like releasing a new Call of Duty and it being a point and click and venture where you point with the gun and click where you want to go (you're out of bullets so it goes 'click' every time).
Or making a Final Fantasy game thats a hack & slash. That kinda stuff.
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Post by hardly on Oct 3, 2014 1:01:32 GMT
The whole communications deal is another great example. Yes we asked for improved communications - because the idea was that if better *transparant* communications were upheld around the design of Godus. That this would lead to a better understanding and status quo between the developers and the community. Instead we got better organized fluffballs and more frequent empty promises. The core purpose for commmunications to lead to results and mutual understanding? Didn't happen. So while George and Matthew did a magnificent job - Peter and the cans didn't change between the last AMA and now. And we're currently entering a similar event. Wanting positive reinforcement is a nice concept - yet when nothing about the game warrents positive reinforcement because its a freemium moneygrab. Then it makes things pretty darned hard. And the whole "Well I paid for a Peter Molyneux game, and I'll see it through to the end." is complete and utter garbage. This freemium excuse posing as a godgame isn't what comes to mind when thinking about the games Molyneux made in the past. And the idea that "regenesis" somehow justifies this is even more ridiculous. It'd be like releasing a new Call of Duty and it being a point and click and venture where you point with the gun and click where you want to go (you're out of bullets so it goes 'click' every time). Or making a Final Fantasy game thats a hack & slash. That kinda stuff. Or it would be like developing a game for mobile devices and then doing a quick port to transfer an almost identical copy of that game to PC. Oh wait that is what they did. |
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Post by hardly on Oct 3, 2014 1:10:14 GMT
To understand why we are jaded it's worth rereadong this article from March 2014 by rock, paper, shotgun: www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/03/12/godus-terrible/#more-194563Here are some snippets: "Peter Molyneux and 22 Cans’ intended Populous heir Godus is the most miserable gaming experience I’ve had in many a year. It was so crushingly short on joy and cleverness, it seemed like a tech demo made without a design, it seemed to believe Farmville was gaming’s future, it was a betrayal of its own heritage, and it was an insult to all that had been promised. I struggled to find anything to convince me that it existed for any reason beyond making money. As an angry young man, I loathed games often. These days, I simply feel sadness and tiredness when I play a game I don’t enjoy. But Godus I loathed, and completely so. There should be no surprise, by now, at unmet promises, but the sheer scale of the oath-breaking here was breathtaking." "At any rate, Peter Molyneux and co have just now broken cover after going dark since Octoberish, revealing sweeping changes for Godus. This was done via a video, in order that we can see and hear all the earnestness and sincerity. So here are some 22 Cans staff – including their infamous Teller Of Tales – apologising for the ‘first’ version of the game, apologising for radio silence for the last half-year, and presenting their new vision for their hitherto goddamned terrible god game. Some appealing concepts and sweeping changes in theory for sure, but there is, to my mind, too much implied self-congratulation in there too. The click-frenzy of the earlier versions suggested a bewildering lack of awareness of what had actually been made, so it is very hard to trust (surely premature) claims that it feels so darn wonderful now. This is the British games industry’s own Ford Nation. I wonder if we’ll ever hear the true story of what happened, and who was really responsible for Godus’ most grevious failings." So my question to Aynen and anyone else defending 22cans is what's changed? Another silence, another video and no reason to expect things will be any different this time. |
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Post by bed on Oct 3, 2014 3:15:33 GMT
Lol that is the joke. Gmr Leon got a personal email from peter telling him they'd do something in the future which they haven't done yet and we are supposed to take that as fulfilling their end of the bargain. Ridiculous. because we all know that when Peter says something will be the way, we know we can take him at his word. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Oct 3, 2014 5:30:53 GMT
(btw Selling shirts with front "I am guilty" and back "killing Godus" 49$ handsigned - Stretchgoal at 200K - I will talk to EA and kill Dungeon Keeper). I want one! But it better not have the signature PRINTED on it. |
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heggers
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Post by heggers on Oct 3, 2014 9:43:40 GMT
This is probably the wrong place to say this and for that I apologise but is anyone else getting a little sick and tired of the community moderators being essentially sycophantic "yes men"? It constantly feels whenever they have something to say its never in the best interests of the community, only keeping their "bosses" (as they seem to think they're part of 22sCams) happy. I can understand why they'd want to bring people on board who would who would sing their praises but it feels like you can't ever really express yourself without Muir or Aynen slapping you down with the Steam rules like they're Westboro baptists preaching about the good book...
Sorry... rant over... Think I kept that bottled up a bit too long and reading the Steam twin of this thread made it boil over (plus couldn't say this over there as it'd likely get me banned by the lap dogs.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Oct 3, 2014 13:17:36 GMT
So I see that someone finally stepped in to quell the storm and calm the coming tide; steamcommunity.com/app/232810/discussions/0/616187839179798956/#c616189742754167296Thanks, Matthew Allen. Seriously. Although I don't have the energy nor desire to really comment or participate - posting long diatribes and rants - like I use to, I still read much of what goes on in the forums... and things were starting to get really severely tense. Well, it still is, but I for one very much appreciate your interjection. I don't think anyone was particularly wrong (tho there was a bit of mudslinging and condescension), be it fact or opinion, but there was certainly a lot of uneccessaary push and shove going on. I found myself agreeing and disagreeing with parts of every side (which is more of a decahedron dice than a coin) and not having a strong enough opinion either way. However, I'm sort of tired and worn out debating this game and this experience, sonmy emotions regarding it is one of ambivalence. I think you were spot on about much of what you said and respect your opinions and observations. I hope this whole thing doesn't leave a bitter taste in your mouth. I am still upset that it appears I won't get the Peter Molyneux God game I supported, but have come to terms with that; now I just hope that something resolves itself soon so we can move forward - or move on. |
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Post by Danjal on Oct 3, 2014 14:53:11 GMT
The more excuses come our way, the more obvious it seems that developing for PC was a mistake on their part.
Or atleast, the way they presented it was a mistake.
Peter is(/was) vastly inexperienced with the concept of indie development as it is done these days, aswell as with the concepts of crowdfunding and early access.
And apparently he believes that this method means you get money from people and then are free to do with it as you will as there are little to no legal constraints holding you back.
Which means that there's no "management" overhead to hold you accountable for what you create nor is there one that keeps you to your deadlines or holds you accountable for making mistakes and slipping.
As a result, true to artistic vision, he's gone full artsy visionary - rather than keeping his feet on the ground.
Just reading posts from the likes of Fabs here on the forums indicates that aswell.
If the community (both the experienced coders and the experienced gamers) aswell as the 22cans staff agree that certain problems could be easily solved with specific solutions.
But Peter and the design team (whoever finally calls the shots) keep insisting on this shallow freemium BS instead...
Almost every problem we encounter in the game is down to primarily two fundamental core issues.
- Either its a freemium-based mechanic (gems, timers, linear design etc)
- Or its a poorly coded bandaid (timer balance/progression, sticker progression/acquisition, advancement/growth overall etc)
There are no soft or hard caps implemented anywhere, either because they assume that nobody will go that far or because they simply don't care to do so.
Hours or days for a new builder/farmer/miner to be created? And if you add a few houses to the settlement this resets?
Belief growth being by no means logical between the different tiers of abodes nor the abode to settlement conversion? (Ridiculous amounts of belief go lost towards settlements... For a small surface gain as you cram stuff together.)
The settlement mechanic is pretty much sacrifice 90% of your belief per abode to retain 10% at most and cram it into a settlement, then build more abodes around it and repeat.
There's no logical or sensible formula tied to this.
Yet even without the settlements, the abodes themselves go up at ridiculous speeds. The birthrate and belief rate make no sense in comparison to eachother nor with respect to progression.
It pretty much seems that every technological advancement is a step backwards for the player and another hurdle to overcome.
Makes you think that other than communication, Peter is a bit of a technophobe....
And THAT, plus more, is why some communications and mutual understanding is so important...
Yet if Peter/22cans isn't interested (as it seems to be) - or if they "are interested", but just don't have the time (and thus may aswell not be interested for the effort they put into it).
Then whats the point?
They've been sidelining issues the entire development because they'd rather focus on Peter's vision. Even though they can't get a step closer to it.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Oct 3, 2014 15:29:14 GMT
Very well said, and succinctly accurate. The whole "artsy visionary " is an observation I made about this some time ago - as I have a background in Art and recognise it when I see it - and it certainly has had detrimental effects on the course, and outcome, of this project. Certain people in certain positions have gone far off the rails and the development followed suit, despite the outcry/feedback from the community and the direct input of the apparent professionals and creatives on their team. It's been obvious for some time now, and it doesn't appear likely to change, whether we speak up or not, or are positively encouraging or negatively admonishing either them or the game.
This, coupled with other recent failings, is highly discouraging to the entire fundamental idea behind crowdfunding and early access, as well as game development in general, and frankly has left a bad taste in gamers mouths. The repercussions will certainly be either severely damaging to game development and sales, or advancing in how retailers, publishers, and devs proceed in the future to stymie the hemorrhaging from these wounds.
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Weeird. That's not how I've read any of it at all. I just read flat responses from it. Maybe you're talking more about Aynen's posts as Earl noted above me*? I pretty much gathered from reading back over the discussion that it was Aynen's good intent going all sorts of awry again that led to the surge in activity in the thread, but everyone else I read as keeping themselves in check after tossing up the notice that I'd gotten info from Peter. Hell, I can review the posts immediately following my own and I still read them that way. That's why I'm pretty confused here. 
