Posts: 394
I like: Board games, computer games, rpg's, watching animated shows, books, super hero stuff, toys (but only if I can play with them) I don't like: Thinking about getting older
Posts: 1,124
I like: Tactical/Strategical games.
Depth and complexity.
Meaningful choice & consequence in games.
Games with a lot of story and content. I don't like: Shallow repetative gameplay.
Twitch reflex gameplay.
Generic repetative online play.
Abusive monetization models.
Sorry, I completely agree. It would absolutely fit in there as I noted, under one of those categories as one of the top priority questions (if we even want to bother with prioritization of questions, or hell, even categorization of them). When talking about requests, I was referring to Danjal's post not yours. I hope that's clearer.
I'd say now is the best time to get them to come across for some requests.
A one-off "lets give some random answers" is nice, but even if they answer then fully. Thats gonna mean nothing if they then go under again to hide behind the iOS flowers. For continued coexistence, establishing a level of mutual understanding is crucial. Its something that should've happened ages ago but never did. As such, creating that mutual understanding - so that they know what we're expecting and we know what they're expecting - right now would be the best of times to get that sorted out. Rather than letting things fall back into old habits and letting history repeat itself.
If anything, I'd say that getting answers is secondary to establishing continued communications going forward. Since the answers mean nothing unless 22cans actually backs them up with actions.
Sorry, I completely agree. It would absolutely fit in there as I noted, under one of those categories as one of the top priority questions (if we even want to bother with prioritization of questions, or hell, even categorization of them). When talking about requests, I was referring to Danjal's post not yours. I hope that's clearer.
I'd say now is the best time to get them to come across for some requests.
A one-off "lets give some random answers" is nice, but even if they answer then fully. Thats gonna mean nothing if they then go under again to hide behind the iOS flowers. For continued coexistence, establishing a level of mutual understanding is crucial. Its something that should've happened ages ago but never did. As such, creating that mutual understanding - so that they know what we're expecting and we know what they're expecting - right now would be the best of times to get that sorted out. Rather than letting things fall back into old habits and letting history repeat itself.
If anything, I'd say that getting answers is secondary to establishing continued communications going forward. Since the answers mean nothing unless 22cans actually backs them up with actions.
I agree, but I'm not sure if this is the right instance with which to approach that or not. At best, I think that perhaps outlining some agreed upon expectations to submit alongside the questions and then, following the questions up with requests, might be a way to do this?
Monkeythumbz/Matthew Allen, if we approach it this way, can we be assured that you won't cut those parts out to merely provide the questions? Heck, if we organize the questions amongst ourselves, can we be assured they won't be reorganized by you all? =/
Edit:
So here's what I have so far, in no particular order.
Questions: What are they planning with the Settlement Feature since we're left with awkward Homeworlds filled with farms/mines? -Aron. Are you ever going to make the game that you described in the kickstarter for the PC hardcore gamers that backed this game? -Qetesh. Can we finally start to expect some degree of consistency in communications? -Danjal. What are you working on right now? -Hardly What's the current status of Hubworld's development? -Hardly. When is the PC sprint expected to be worked on now? -Hardly. How will you thoroughly remove free to play mechanics from the PC version? -Qetesh.
Requests: Could there be a single of the Cans assigned to work on the PC version of the game, at any given time, for bugfixing/general maintence and content adjustments to make it suitable for PC? -Danjal. Could the CMs be given more flexibility to gather answers without needing to pass someone else for permission? -Danjal.
As a backer, I would disagree. I feel they owe this answer to me. If they don't answer that one then I really don't care about any of the other ones. I am not looking for a detailed answer full of spin, I just want a YES or NO for it. I also am not keeping my kid gloves on anymore. Please answer the question or if you don't, I will take it the answer is no.
George, Matthew and Jack I truly like but I am not going to agree that I am not in a position to ask the hard question and I am not going to hide the fact that I am extremely unhappy with this situation. I know you can get more flies with honey than vinegar but there also comes a time when you need to stand up for yourself and speak your mind.
I posted mine about ten times, so you have my question. This for me is A number one top highest priority. If they are not going to make the game I backed for, then nothing else matters.
Are you ever going to make the game that you described in the kickstarter for the PC hardcore gamers that backed this game?
I don't think a simple YES or NO is gonna cut it. Because, let's be honest, if they do answer it, the answer's gonna be YES. But that doesn't mean anything. What's important is HOW they plan on achieving this, because what we've seen so far doesn't look like they're going in that direction.
Posts: 1,655
Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats and Dogs. Travel when I want and not when I have to. A lazy sunday at home with my love watching movies and playing games after a long night out with friends and family. I don't like: Being Lied to.
As a backer, I would disagree. I feel they owe this answer to me. If they don't answer that one then I really don't care about any of the other ones. I am not looking for a detailed answer full of spin, I just want a YES or NO for it. I also am not keeping my kid gloves on anymore. Please answer the question or if you don't, I will take it the answer is no.
George, Matthew and Jack I truly like but I am not going to agree that I am not in a position to ask the hard question and I am not going to hide the fact that I am extremely unhappy with this situation. I know you can get more flies with honey than vinegar but there also comes a time when you need to stand up for yourself and speak your mind.
I posted mine about ten times, so you have my question. This for me is A number one top highest priority. If they are not going to make the game I backed for, then nothing else matters.
Are you ever going to make the game that you described in the kickstarter for the PC hardcore gamers that backed this game?
I don't think a simple YES or NO is gonna cut it. Because, let's be honest, if they do answer it, the answer's gonna be YES. But that doesn't mean anything. What's important is HOW they plan on achieving this, because what we've seen so far doesn't look like they're going in that direction.
No, I want to hear a yes or no. If they say yes, then they will need to be held accountable for that. If they say no, I won't ever play the game again.
I agree Greay, I think we can keep the core of that question, but a simple rephrasing goes a long way. Like instead of, "Are you ever going to..." something like, "How are you planning to..."/"How will you..."/"How are you going to..."/etc. With an added cut away from allowing the mod tools or PC sprint to suffice.
I don't think a simple YES or NO is gonna cut it. Because, let's be honest, if they do answer it, the answer's gonna be YES. But that doesn't mean anything. What's important is HOW they plan on achieving this, because what we've seen so far doesn't look like they're going in that direction.
No, I want to hear a yes or no. If they say yes, then they will need to be held accountable for that. If they say no, I won't ever play the game again.
We can keep it there, but I can almost assure you that they're going to tell you yes along some lines. They're going to gloss over the hardcore part.
Posts: 1,655
Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats and Dogs. Travel when I want and not when I have to. A lazy sunday at home with my love watching movies and playing games after a long night out with friends and family. I don't like: Being Lied to.
I think don't you are grasping the fact that I am asking them to admit if that game will ever be made or not. If they can't answer it then there is a reason for that. That reason would be a legal one they don't wish to be held accountable for. I guess you can call it "putting it in writing". Once on the internet it lives there forever. It would also be useful should any courts are ever involved. If they can't state so, then the answer is no.
No, I want to hear a yes or no. If they say yes, then they will need to be held accountable for that. If they say no, I won't ever play the game again.
Posts: 1,655
Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats and Dogs. Travel when I want and not when I have to. A lazy sunday at home with my love watching movies and playing games after a long night out with friends and family. I don't like: Being Lied to.
No, I want to hear a yes or no. If they say yes, then they will need to be held accountable for that. If they say no, I won't ever play the game again.
Fair enough. That's entirely reasonable.
Can there be a follow-up question, "How?"
Of course , I would love to hear it, as long as it is not just spin.
Of course , I would love to hear it, as long as it is not just spin.
That's pretty much where I was planning on going with it anyway. =P I'm trying to figure out how to write it so that there's little wiggle-room a few posts above this.
Posts: 1,655
Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats and Dogs. Travel when I want and not when I have to. A lazy sunday at home with my love watching movies and playing games after a long night out with friends and family. I don't like: Being Lied to.
Of course , I would love to hear it, as long as it is not just spin.
That's pretty much where I was planning on going with it anyway. =P I'm trying to figure out how to write it so that there's little wiggle-room a few posts above this.
It is such a simple question, one that has not been answered for a year, so really I feel that there has to be a reason for that. If they were truly planning on making that game, it should be a no brainer to say yes. For this alone, I would like to hear it yes or no. Anything after yes to me, would be about how you are reverting the core mechanics and gameplay away from the F2p. If I hear used car salesmen speak about vague concepts, I won't believe a word of it. Let's look at Theme Hospital and Populous, they had no F2p mechanics in them at all, how will you remove them entirely from PC Godus?
If it looks like a duck ......okay, so how are you going to have PC Godus stop quacking? That is not an insult just a reference to show what I would be curious to hear to support a claim if that answer is yes.
That's pretty much where I was planning on going with it anyway. =P I'm trying to figure out how to write it so that there's little wiggle-room a few posts above this.
It is such a simple question, one that has not been answered for a year, so really I feel that there has to be a reason for that. If they were truly planning on making that game, it should be a no brainer to say yes. For this alone, I would like to hear it yes or no. Anything after yes to me, would be about how you are reverting the core mechanics and gameplay away from the F2p. If I hear used car salesmen speak about vague conceptions, I won't believe a word of it. Let's look at Theme Hospital and Populous, they had no F2p mechanics in them at all, how will you remove them entirely from PC Godus?
If it looks like a duck ......okay, so how are you going to have PC Godus stop quacking? That is not an insult just a reference to show what I would be curious to hear to support a claim if that answer is yes.
How would we narrow down free to play mechanics? Specify that we're not talking about the general appearance of say, cards/stickers/belief/gems, but how they are currently operating within the PC version of the game through random/semi-random generation/wait timers/manual collection/etc.?
Posts: 1,655
Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats and Dogs. Travel when I want and not when I have to. A lazy sunday at home with my love watching movies and playing games after a long night out with friends and family. I don't like: Being Lied to.
It is such a simple question, one that has not been answered for a year, so really I feel that there has to be a reason for that. If they were truly planning on making that game, it should be a no brainer to say yes. For this alone, I would like to hear it yes or no. Anything after yes to me, would be about how you are reverting the core mechanics and gameplay away from the F2p. If I hear used car salesmen speak about vague conceptions, I won't believe a word of it. Let's look at Theme Hospital and Populous, they had no F2p mechanics in them at all, how will you remove them entirely from PC Godus?
If it looks like a duck ......okay, so how are you going to have PC Godus stop quacking? That is not an insult just a reference to show what I would be curious to hear to support a claim if that answer is yes.
How would we narrow down free to play mechanics? Specify that we're not talking about the general appearance of say, cards/stickers/belief/gems, but how they are currently operating within the PC version of the game through random/semi-random generation/wait timers/manual collection/etc.?
In my opinion, F2p games are made to have core mechanics that make the game un fun without spending money. They have very long timers, they have near impossible goal made to frustrate you enough to buy into completion. They have tedious chores needed to advance that are also able to be bought out of. In general there is very little possibility of game advancement without spending money. If you look at Theme Hospital they had short timers, no tedious chores and game advancement was quite doable by simply playing the game. The same was true for Populous. They can even have a store in it and not be F2p but the items for sale in the store should be superficial extras in the game and not for what is required to play the game. You should not have any type of core monetization that make the game more fun. You should not be able to buy advancement by spending money directly.
If you look at some F2p like Farmvile. It has boring daily chores needed, you can buy out of them. It has levels that as you progress your timers on items needed for next level get longer and longer, you can buy out of them. In Cafe World the higher the level you advance the more time your stoves take to cook your food, you can buy out of this. If you don't spend any money on either game, the games are mostly unplayed for days at a time. Settlers Online is an example of a F2p with constant chores needed daily that can be bought out of too. Their timers in SO are much shorter than Godus too. In a nutshell for me, F2p are made to only be fun to play if you spend money.
Posts: 1,124
I like: Tactical/Strategical games.
Depth and complexity.
Meaningful choice & consequence in games.
Games with a lot of story and content. I don't like: Shallow repetative gameplay.
Twitch reflex gameplay.
Generic repetative online play.
Abusive monetization models.
Just look at your average mobile/facebook type game. The content is gated to have you either drop money or alternately have you add loads of 'friends' (the more people you bring into the game from your social circle, the more potential customers they have...)
So you end up seeing timers, you end up seeing chores, you end up seeing roadblocks. The emphasis is heavy on monetization. And sadly, most F2P design is done "wrong" (I recommend watching Extra Credits' video on F2P monetization) Course, its not restricted to mobile and facebook titles. Even the PC platform has such models applied to it.
Many a F2P MMO has its content monetized. You see "experience boosters" and "loot boosters" to increase the pace you play at. However the reality is that much like the net neutrality issue. Its not so much that the people who pay get FASTER access. Rather it is that they slowed down everyone who doesn't pay extra. Only to move those that drop cold cash up to normal speeds. These games are often also want to lock away content exclusively to the people that pay - without allowing non-paying customers to get at them at all. The emphasis there is to put the good stuff exclusively available through cash-currency.
As Qetesh says, these games have a very heavy focus on bringing in the cash. Rather than making the game fun, and then relying on retention and cosmetics to bring in the cash, they enforce the player to pay to "ensure" their own profits. Not willing to realize that they actively push people away - or judging that the people who aren't paying aren't worth their time to begin with. But (and here the Extra Credits video becomes relevant) without a core group of players that doesn't pay. The group of people that remains playing is small and insignificant.
Looking at Godus right now, the following mechanics are heavily F2P/monetization heavy:
Belief collection - By enforcing manual belief collection they force you to visit often and to 'tend' to your game, logic being that the more time you spend 'tending' your game the more likely it is you'll choose to drop some cash. A mechanic thats lost on the PC version of the game, as there is no monetization.
Build timers - Another one of those monetization triggers. By putting the timers up "high", they force a mentality that makes the player wait. They then offer you a "skip" solution in the form of gems so you can power through this roadblock. Or force you to sit it out and wait (the so-called 'moral' F2P method, by allowing themselves the excuse "But we never FORCED you to pay, you can wait if you want..."). Again a mechanic that is lost on the PC version, as there is no monetization.
Stickers - Now I'm not talking about the childish nature of stickers here, but the method of acquisition. Stickers are random by their very nature, they are designed to make buying sticker packs the "best" way to play. The alternative of grinding stickers is inefficient at best and often results to boring and grindy chores. Again, a mechanic lost on the PC version because of the lack of monetization.
Beacons as expansion tool - Now this one is likely due to the mobile nature aswell as the F2P nature of the game. Beacons as expansion limit the player in movement and thus make it less likely the player will "move outside of the designated scope". This way the world can seem larger than it really is, because anything outside of the pre-designated area is unaccessible, yet still visible. Lowering performance drain by pre-defining how the player expands his world and at the same time gating their progress with a paywall.
Overall costs vs playtime balance - Again here shows the need to "force" the player to monetize their gametime. The idea being that if you want to progress faster, you can always drop some cash.
Gems - Anything that needs gems is monetization focused. Yet, the PC version doesn't have monetization? But the remnants are still left because 22cans doesn't want to alter their core game mechanics.
Now Godus' / 22cans' approach to this has been to band-aid the F2P elements on PC rather than altering or fixing the core problem.
Hence we got in-game means to grind our way to gems with the Pit of Doom. A very time-intensive chore, that isn't particularly enjoyable.
Its a cheap solution to a problem that otherwise would require them to create new mechanics for their game - something they apparently seem unwilling to do even though their original pitch promised they wouldn't "dumb down" their game for the sake of mobile/F2P.
A number of solutions here that would easily resolve many of these issues, aside from some proper balancing (balancing alone doesn't solve the core issues at hand...)
Belief collection - Passive collection, that isn't gated by gems. There are so many methods that don't even require them to create massive changes to their game and infact, there are even those that uphold their idea of wanting to promote player activity and revisitation of older area's of play. Namely the idea of "impressing your followers", by being active and present in the game your followers will 'believe' in you and passively generate belief for you. If you remain inactive for a long period of time they'd end up moving away from their worship to do their own thing, requiring an active intervention from you - their god. This way, rather than becoming a chore, they turn the mechanic into a driving force of their game. It mostly needs polish on top of some balancing.
Build times - Again mostly a polish issue. The go-to solution is introduce resources. By having buildings rely on resources, the player gets a modicum of control over it and the game actually feels less "cheap". Times are a developer saying they don't know how to or do not want to create an actual mechanic. Times are an excuse to have the player 'wait' without actually creating something why the player has to wait other than the simple stopsign and timer with its "pay to skip!" notification. Since monetization isn't an issue on PC, there should be no reason why alternate methods shouldn't be explored. And I personally believe that the mobile and monetized version would benefit greatly from such a resource expansion as the added layer of depth would provide the players with something to look at in their world. (As elsewhere noted, this doesn't even need to add more micromanagement for the player as everything can be done in the background.)
Stickers - The key lies in the acquisition. While the paintjob is something that can be altered at the drop of a hat (call it something else and its still a duck...) The core mechanics can be altered quite easily. Focus #1 would be to include followers into the acquisition. By providing a passive acquisition method (followers dig up chests) you already make it more logical and less of a chore. Focus #2 lies in the random nature. By providing more logical points of acquisition, you boost the level of control the player has over this. Stickers could come from the various jobs your followers have or could be found in specific trigger zones. All of this could be "monetized" in the F2P release of Godus by adjusting some balancing accordingly and would not work detrimental to the design of the game. The simplest solution would be to include stickers into the already existing tasks your followers perform, having them passively provide typed stickers that fall in line with their jobs. Immediately representing their "skill" or "progression" towards a certain overall resource or concept. (It makes sense that after they have spend so much time building, their proficiency with the concept is enough that they could 'learn' something new that relates to building. So why not provide 'building' stickers. The same goes for other catagories.)
Beacons as expansion tool - The PC platform isn't limited to performance and has less need to be paced as such. Creating a more natural method of expansion would give the game more depth and make your actions feel more relevant aswell as your followers feel more alive. As there is no need for monetization, there is also no need for roadblocks to pace the player.
Overall cost vs playtime - Mostly a balancing feature, but some minor adjustments in mechanics would benefit the platform. Make it less of a chore, focus on making the player want to do something rather than forcing them to do something to progress. Its a clever way of HOW you do it, not so much what you do.
Gems - Much like belief and stickers, the key here lies within the method of acquisition as much as its paintjob. It'd be really easy to rename gems and make them "feel" less of a mobile/F2P mechanic, but that wouldn't solve the core issue. The core issue would be resolved by providing the player with more choices to acquire this 'divine currency'. Turning gems into a more potent, but scarce, "upgraded version" of belief. Rather than making it a gateway currency, they could integrate it into the core game design and paint it as such making it stand out much less.
Now all of this relies on the fact that 22cans wants to turn Godus-PC into an actual PC title. That we're not an afterthought or initial marketing tool to create momentum for their project.
While it would take some time and resources to alter some of these core mechanics, I don't see it as an obstacle they can't overcome. And I definitely can see that they currently need to focus on the mobile release of their game. I also see that any promise they make regarding this wouldn't assure us anything as nobody would believe them, making the position a rather awkward one.
While acquiring the promise or assurance that such fixes are going to come into the PC version in the future (I'm talking 6 months time seeing progress, not 6 years...).
Which is why a more potent assurance from 22cans is key here. Anything they can do to show the PC players that they do not intend to neglect us entirely would benefit the mutual understanding.
The core idea here aswell being that 22cans wants to improve the retention on their mobile platform and some of the problems could benefit both sides as they are getting fixed.
It'd be a mutually beneficial concept to work on these in the forseeable future. However that is merely my outsiders perspective. (Kill two birds with one game mechanic.)
It all comes down to whether or not they respect the player as a person. Or just see them as a money dispenser. With the PC player being the inferior dispenser as once paid they will no longer dispense more money and thus deserve less quality time from 22cans.
...Well, see, I get that. What I'm not sure of is whether we should condense this into a single question or make questions for each particular mechanic to drill home the idea. If we say, remove free to play mechanics, then it becomes what I asked, which as you both have shared, isn't particularly hard to figure out but isn't exactly brief and allows loads of room to flop about waxing philosophical on some garbage like, mechanics are simply mechanics, they hold no association with any particular business model or even game type (which is bs, but would it be surprising to hear?).
So personally, I think much like Qetesh's narrow yes/no, we could keep the basic question, but we'd still very much want to hammer away at each mechanic to make it absolutely clear how we consider it to currently be following a mobile/free to play model over a PC/paid model.
y'all are dedicated optimists with excellent ideas and good hearts. Shame it is wasted on this utter waste of potential. Please cease throwing away your time on 22cans and advise me of your kickstarter that I may immediately back actual game focused design from morally respectable sources.
...Well, see, I get that. What I'm not sure of is whether we should condense this into a single question or make questions for each particular mechanic to drill home the idea. If we say, remove free to play mechanics, then it becomes what I asked, which as you both have shared, isn't particularly hard to figure out but isn't exactly brief and allows loads of room to flop about waxing philosophical on some garbage like, mechanics are simply mechanics, they hold no association with any particular business model or even game type (which is bs, but would it be surprising to hear?).
So personally, I think much like Qetesh's narrow yes/no, we could keep the basic question, but we'd still very much want to hammer away at each mechanic to make it absolutely clear how we consider it to currently be following a mobile/free to play model over a PC/paid model.
GMR they need to engage with the issue. The problem is they never ever write a post that discusses the issues. Where is the open discussion of features? It doesn't exist. How about the write a post about the next major change they are going to make and we discuss it.
Posts: 1,655
Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats and Dogs. Travel when I want and not when I have to. A lazy sunday at home with my love watching movies and playing games after a long night out with friends and family. I don't like: Being Lied to.
Aren't we forgetting something here? These are game DEVS, they know damn right well what we are talking about when we discuss the F2p mechanics. Why should we need to water down our questions about it? I think it would be a very sad thing to have to have the gamers decribe what the F2p aspects of the game are to the devs. The mobile is a F2p and the PC game is the same damn game.
Griffork: I'm back! Just saw the trailer of Masters of Albion and it's a godgame! Immediately thought of this forum and decided to visit.
Aug 21, 2024 7:51:22 GMT
Griffork: I think I've sent you a discord friend request (if I've done it right) Ba'al!
Aug 21, 2024 7:53:46 GMT
Griffork: Sorry for being away for so long. The job I had at the beginning of the year seems to be having a full-blown melt-down (and I got caught in it). I'm now at a new place but the new job has been a very hectic learning experience (yay for being on R&D!)
Aug 21, 2024 7:55:26 GMT
hardly: Dammit you beat me I wanted to be first to come back just to remark that he’s at it again.
Aug 21, 2024 10:08:21 GMT
hardly: Anyway, just wanted to say hi for old times sake. Damn Peter Molyneux.
Aug 21, 2024 10:09:55 GMT
Lord Ba'al: He is indeed at it again. I read a few lines from some article saying he took something from this game and something from that game and something from yet another game and put it all together.
Aug 21, 2024 17:34:06 GMT
Lord Ba'al: Then it mentioned there was this big hand mouse cursor, and I was like, nah, this will be shit.
Aug 21, 2024 17:34:25 GMT
Lord Ba'al: Initially it was promising though, as it mentioned he had "put the old band back together".
Aug 21, 2024 17:35:05 GMT
Lord Ba'al: By the way, I closed the whole forum for posting, due to the fact that all that was being posted was spam, but if anyone wants to make a post, I'm happy to open it up again, even if that's maybe just temporarily.
Aug 21, 2024 17:36:02 GMT
Lord Ba'al: Or... post in the spammer section, and I can always move it elsewhere
Aug 21, 2024 19:32:37 GMT