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Post by Danjal on Sept 16, 2014 23:06:46 GMT
The problem with what you're saying is that Peter himself uses his own characteristics in his defense.
"I'm the victim here." "People don't respect me" "They never listen, even not when I told them about the puppy and they wanted a dragon."
To get over this stigma, he'll need to step up himself. Prove that he's man enough to rise above his reputation and deal with this like any professional adult should. Showing us that degree of respect, will earn him more respect and will result in a decrease of character attacks by the community.
However aslong as he remains hiding behind such excuses - then the very excuses will also be used against him.
No, we don't... We don't have to take that leap of faith at all.
If they give us garbage we don't have to appreciate that in the slightest.
Its up to them to put actions behind their words. And while these actions may take time. Its their actions that will determine the validity of their claims.
They can't hide in their tower for MONTHS without any discourse and expect people to just sit on their hands patiently.
That isn't how the world works. The world is driven by results - so people expect to SEE results.
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Post by Qetesh on Sept 16, 2014 23:10:10 GMT
Dude they lied to us, took our money and insulted us, I don't care how I am perceived if speaking the truth and demanding real answers is considered wrong in any way. It is quite simple, answer the questions without pomp and spin.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Sept 16, 2014 23:10:36 GMT
The problem with what you're saying is that Peter himself uses his own characteristics in his defense. "I'm the victim here." "People don't respect me" "They never listen, even not when I told them about the puppy and they wanted a dragon." To get over this stigma, he'll need to step up himself. Prove that he's man enough to rise above his reputation and deal with this like any professional adult should. Showing us that degree of respect, will earn him more respect and will result in a decrease of character attacks by the community. However aslong as he remains hiding behind such excuses - then the very excuses will also be used against him. Yeah...Without a doubt, he makes it far too easy to draw the attacks on himself with what he says...However, that shouldn't be extended to his coworkers, I don't think. If anything, some of them are right there with us in being frustrated with him, whether they'll say so or not publicly, given what he's said in interviews. >_> No, we don't... We don't have to take that leap of faith at all. If they give us garbage we don't have to appreciate that in the slightest. Its up to them to put actions behind their words. And while these actions may take time. Its their actions that will determine the validity of their claims. They can't hide in their tower for MONTHS without any discourse and expect people to just sit on their hands patiently. That isn't how the world works. The world is driven by results - so people expect to SEE results. I really don't disagree on the larger scale, I'm just trying to emphasize it for this small instance. We don't have to appreciate what's led to this point, and really, we shouldn't, but we may have to try for them bothering to recognize our outreach and agreeing to engage again on some level. Is it ludicrous? Yes. Should we really feel the need to appreciate it? Not really, no. However we may gain more if we give the impression that we do. |
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Post by hardly on Sept 16, 2014 23:23:39 GMT
As you've noticed I've recently gone feral. Basically I've been waiting more than a year for 22cans to show an ounce of honour and it hasn't happened. If 22cans commit to an actual dicussion of design I will participate in that discussion in a positive and thoughtful way. When GMR reached out what we wanted was a change from 22cans, what we got is a video (more of the same). Until 22cans come to the proverbial party I am going to call them what they are - charlatans. That can be perceived as bullying, abuse or a personal attack but I prefer to view it as the truth. 22cans have lead the PC community along for two years and have to this date no delivered and have not even presented a plan for how they will deliver. Their conduct is outrageous. Even in implementing their cynical plan they appear to have failed. This experience is not something id want on my cv.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Sept 16, 2014 23:45:53 GMT
=/ To return this back to our current task, here's how I've currently got the questions compiled and organized.Edit: Some food for thought that I'd not read before this whole affair. I think this could apply equally well for both ourselves and 22cans in some instances. It seems that I've been practicing some approximation of this with my own thoughts/writings before posting, at least for some of my better posts. |
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Post by hardly on Sept 17, 2014 1:19:44 GMT
The problem is 22cans were secretive yesterday, they are secretive today and guess what? They'll probably be secretive tomorrow. They won't commit to sharing information and they only tell us stuff when we fight for it. Why should we be polite and constructive when they are secretive, elusive as aloof?
Here are some questions:
What is your vision for the PC version, where is the design process for that version and what will the PC game look like as distinct from the mobile version?
When will the PC sprint happen and what will it deliver?
What is the status of hubworld and what are the mechanics of hubworld?
What changes have you considered to gems, waiting, stickers and other mechanics we have asked to be changed?
If you aren't changing one of these mechanics what makes you think it is acceptable in its current form?
We don't need a video to answer those questions.
And let me add if you say you don't know / haven thought about it then that is being secretive. Not considering something is a cop out that I will not accept. You are 2 years into develop a PC game and you need to act like it and stop hiding behind your own inadequacies.
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Post by hardly on Sept 17, 2014 1:23:00 GMT
And don't even talk to me about being too busy making your free to play mobile monstrosity. The abandonment of the PC version and the cheap port it became is a epic betrayal that cannot be justified.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Sept 17, 2014 1:34:56 GMT
And don't even talk to me about being too busy making your free to play mobile monstrosity. The abandonment of the PC version and the cheap port it became is a epic betrayal that cannot be justified. I feel more and more that we really need a short bit at the start before the questions outlining these expectations for them to take into account before recording anything. I think expressing these alongside why we feel the community has become so toxic/vehement/vitriolic/etc. (ya fucked up 22cans, then ya fucked up more by going silent on whoever remained faithful, and sticking to your guns only serves to add insult to injury) might be pretty damn useful at getting our point across. |
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Post by Danjal on Sept 17, 2014 1:42:11 GMT
As usefull as that might be - 22cans buying time for themselves to make excuses is just gonna make matters worse.
We're all on borrowed time here. Its a matter of time before shit is gonna hit the fan again.
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Post by hardly on Sept 17, 2014 1:45:46 GMT
Your doing a good thing here GMR but I don't think they'll meet you halfway and I don't think they deserve your effort.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Sept 17, 2014 2:04:53 GMT
As usefull as that might be - 22cans buying time for themselves to make excuses is just gonna make matters worse. We're all on borrowed time here. Its a matter of time before shit is gonna hit the fan again. =/ That's why I've been a little hesitant to bother with adding in that part, as I suspect they'd dance around that for like 5 minutes or so allowing them to "regretfully" not get to the rest of the questions. Your doing a good thing here Gmr but I don't think they'll meet you halfway and I don't think they deserve your effort. Thanks. I obviously hope you're wrong, yet the realist in me mostly agrees with you. Should we start going over whether to recategorize the questions/sort them by priority, by the way? I feel like we're getting close to where we may have to put up a cutoff point. |
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Post by hardly on Sept 17, 2014 2:30:57 GMT
Well my suggested questions are above. I wouldn't ask anymore or any less. Your leading this GMR so just go through and reshape and prioritise. Don't try and get everything into one session. Like I said focusing on the future will be much more effective than the past so personally I'd drop the historic grievances and try and pin them down on what they are going to do. The key is PC specific answers with real design detail.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Sept 17, 2014 2:43:53 GMT
Pushed this out over on Steam.Bulk of idea is reiterating what I've discussed over here, with a little more detail: Some ideas I've had are grouping together similar questions together and tagging them as being similar to allow for answering several at once (killing two birds with one stone, etc.), as well as having the categories arranged in terms of overall priority. E.g. Meta-high priority. q1-10 high priority. q11-15 moderate. 15-20 low. Comms-high priority. Requests-high priority. Hubworld-moderate priority. Gameplay-moderate priority. q1-5 high priority. q6-10 moderate. 11-15 low. Something to that effect, questions rearranged accordingly, where below 10 questions, all questions should be considered their categorical priority. Priorities in example not set, just conveying the thoughts jostling about. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Sept 17, 2014 15:01:24 GMT
Bumping this up a moment. Any help/feedback on how to order the priorities of these questions would be greatly appreciated. I know I'm being fairly insistent about this, but I don't want to mix up which questions get attention over others. My priorities and the community's very likely differ in some slight ways that make a pretty big difference.
Thought of another couple questions:
It's insisted that PC Godus will not feature microtransactions of any sort since very early in development, yet we now have the gem exchange and much of the balance that heavily encourages its use remains in place, why is this if gems are viewed as formalized cheating? Are there any plans to revise gems to feel less like their free to play counterpart?
Does 22cans recognize how the absence of transparency and unresponsiveness to more constructive feedback has led to the community's irritability?
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Post by Danjal on Sept 17, 2014 15:47:28 GMT
I'd say that anything regarding the freemium mechanics and inherent 'mobile' nature of the game. Aswell as anything regarding to making the game more "PC oriented" should be high on the priorities list.
Similarly, I'd very much like to have some answers regarding hubword - since its been so long held up as a flagship piece.
Though ultimately I would not care if hubworld got scrapped in favor of a more homeworld focused level of gameplay.
Ultimately, anything regarding to continued communications in the future I regard as the highest priority.
Ensuring that this won't be a one-off is the way forward. Because thats the only way we can have any control over preventing the degradation of the community down to hateflinging, bilespewing and general anarchy.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Sept 17, 2014 16:39:13 GMT
So I was just crunching some numbers a moment ago, and if we want more meaningful answers and we equate meaningful with length of response, it's gonna be a bit of a rough situation. The only way they could get around to pretty much all of our questions would be for each answer to be around 30-45 seconds. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know that that would get us the answers we're interested in hearing. You could get 10 in with 3 minutes per answer, 20 with 1min30 seconds per answer, and obviously 30 with 1 min per answer. Shot a tweet over to Matthew Allen about this, wondering if to ensure best responses maybe it could be split into two videos, as I think getting around 20 in each with roughly 1min30 or a little over, might get some better responses than trying to compress the answers. Then again, if Jack did most of the answering, with the speed at which he talks, he might be able to speed right through these with decent responses in 30 minutes, but I dunno. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 17, 2014 17:00:53 GMT
Given that Peter would usually take about 15 to 30 minutes for an answer and then still manages to avoid the actual question, the outlook for this little Q&A thing is pretty grim.
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Post by Qetesh on Sept 17, 2014 17:01:31 GMT
So I was just crunching some numbers a moment ago, and if we want more meaningful answers and we equate meaningful with length of response, it's gonna be a bit of a rough situation. The only way they could get around to pretty much all of our questions would be for each answer to be around 30-45 seconds. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know that that would get us the answers we're interested in hearing. You could get 10 in with 3 minutes per answer, 20 with 1min30 seconds per answer, and obviously 30 with 1 min per answer. Shot a tweet over to Matthew Allen about this, wondering if to ensure best responses maybe it could be split into two videos, as I think getting around 20 in each with roughly 1min30 or a little over, might get some better responses than trying to compress the answers. Then again, if Jack did most of the answering, with the speed at which he talks, he might be able to speed right through these with decent responses in 30 minutes, but I dunno. Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have been played. They just don't want to do it, and they are trying to make it as hard as possible to get the answers they should be freely willing to give us. There is no excuse for this. Their time is obviously much more valuable than yours since you have to spend all this time working on this on they are willing to give a bloody half hour. I think I have my answer already. |
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Post by Danjal on Sept 17, 2014 17:06:07 GMT
I'll have to agree with Qetesh - if 22cans/Peter is unwilling to even take the time to answer these questions in any fashion. Then its quite clear that their only motive to proceed here is because they want to restrict negative attention from the PC community. There is no reason why they should or could not take more time to resolve this situation, because as they acknowledged themselves. Its not exactly good for business. We have 20 months worth of issues. Most of which were present during the AMA and were ignored or glossed over. If they can't answer them now - then their refusal to answer IS their answer. In which case it would be in their best interest to simply remove the game from Steam Early Access and focus entirely on their mobile sockpuppet. The decision NOT to act, is an action in and of itself. *EDIT* I don't care much for how they answer them. Be it in video, or in text format. Be it through twitter or facebook or whatever. Whether they answer them in one sitting, or split it up in two or three sittings spread across multiple days/weeks. All I care for is that we find a middle ground to work from - or acknowledge that the priorities and interests aren't with the PC platform and to simply stop that charade. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Sept 17, 2014 19:19:46 GMT
Danjal; Well said. That reflects exactly the sentiments I feel about the current state of things. That is why I ultimarelty have concluded that we are simply wasting our time with it all. All opportunities to change the outcome have been afforded to them, without consession or considerable effort to rectify the egregious and unfortunate state of the game or community. Do we even have a modicum of an notion when they want to produce this assuredly resplendent little video pseudo-inquisition? Have they provided a deadline for our questions so they may proceed within a reasonable timeframe?
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