Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 23, 2014 5:07:17 GMT
I completely agree with you ba'al. Something tells me you mistook tikigod's post for mine.
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Post by hardly on Sept 23, 2014 5:41:43 GMT
I completely agree with you ba'al. Something tells me you mistook tikigod's post for mine. This is really awkward. Can I take that comment back now I know tiki god posted that. Only joking, i do agree with him that if they keep depositing content on a shakey foundation the fundamental issues will be irreconcilable later on.
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zeruelb
Junior Apprentice
Posts: 63
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Post by zeruelb on Sept 23, 2014 10:25:42 GMT
I expect there will be... a Ship to be built. Then you would sail to another island, with higher tech, wanting you to build... a Big Ship that sails over the sea to another continent (island) where you get new tech levels and, surprisingly, a new maybe this time Metal Ship! This goes through to propeller planes, jets and spaceships.
Wow, already seen all the content of the game already. Somewhat disappointing.
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Post by Deth on Sept 23, 2014 12:19:11 GMT
Maybe that is the idea. We have to advanced far enough down our time line, to give them time to figure out the tech, to build a spaceship so we can fly to the Jupiter size planet and crash on it so only 2 of our people survive and then the game really starts. That's a Peter type of idea right?
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Post by earlparvisjam on Sept 23, 2014 19:37:31 GMT
Sigh, I've done it before so I might as well get this done now, here's my interpretation of each of these features:
"Arc is unlocked once last expansion shrine is completed."
They've hit the limits of mobile devices and need to manage the new memory.
"Player must repair the arc using huge amount of followers, Crops and ore"
The arc "building" will require a good 100-500 builders to operate. Crops and ore will hover at a level prohibitively high and taking at least a week to accumulate.
"Any workers involved in repair will be taken to a new land called “Wayworld”"
Say goodbye to all the builders on Homeworld. While working on the Arc, there's nothing else you can do and regenerating new builders will pretty much kill enthusiasm to stick around Homeworld.
"The arc will take a long time to build and take many resources, Up to 500 of your followers will make the voyage."
Yep, up to 500 builders can be put to construction. You thought a week was a long time? Boy, have we designed a timer for you. Oh, and expect to do NOTHING while it's being built since ALL of your available resources will go into its construction.
"Once the Arc is completed the player is prompted to set sail."
Press here to generate the new zone.
"A sailing transition screen is shown."
All the big names call this a cut scene. Likely, it'll just be a rehash of the Voyages ship animation.
"The arc will arrive a “Wayworld” and the player must house all followers aboard."
Flatten land quickly or all those builders will die. Otherwise, wtf does "house" mean since we don't actually create structures?
"“Wayworld’ contains a new timeline with new cards, any card not unlocked in “homeworld” remain unlocked."
The effects from Homeworld unlocks carry over but you can't unlock Homeworld cards from Wayworld. Returning to Homeworld will allow you to gather all the useless cards from before that are suddenly necessary on Wayworld.
"Through the settings menu the player can return to the original “Homeworld”, belief/crops/ore collected only apply to that world."
This reminds me of the fish aquarium game on my phone. I can use the menu to cycle between tanks. Each tank is fully contained, though Godus carries over unlocked effects (until they implement Arcs without this feature and fail to get it to work right).
"Wayworld Completely different visually based on desert world where trees are cactuses and rocks are sands."
This is what we've kept our artists busy on for the last 6 months. New skin, same old game.
"Has 2 types of areas that are best for crops and abodes."
We've removed the artificial restriction on an additional level to see if this reduces complaints. We might even come up with a fluff excuse, but probably won't.
"Has 2 tribes of Astari who work under the same rules, except we advertise a massive treasure they are hiding."
See, we've ratcheted up the difficulty. Sort of. Oh, and if you clobber them, we'll give you something super duper cool. No, way better than the last thing we told you was super cool, or the one before that...
"An area that will contain a new tribe called the meanies (to be implemented in future update.)."
We have no idea what we're doing with this but we're going to experiment with some new game mechanics. Hope it isn't as bad as Astari...
"Has random sheep, that will be used in future settlement."
They could be roaming around or they could be another resource bar. Likely, they'll be a resource bar until the team can figure out how to put creatures back into the game.
"Uses dynamic water to make fertile lands."
We really really want this to work. Sure, we've been talking about this for ages, but this time it's for reals.
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Post by hardly on Sept 23, 2014 20:56:25 GMT
Earl I don't think this new content as described is inherently bad or good. What will decide that is how well it's balanced, how well the new astari and meanies work and how novel the new areas/expansion are. For me I'm really interested to see if well be able to sculpt dynamic water. If we can't I will be disappointed.
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Post by Danjal on Sept 23, 2014 21:13:12 GMT
Earl I don't think this new content as described is inherently bad or good. What will decide that is how well it's balanced, how well the new astari and meanies work and how novel the new areas/expansion are. For me I'm really interested to see if well be able to sculpt dynamic water. If we can't I will be disappointed. I'd say that the new area - whatever it will be - isn't going to be inherently "good". In the sense that its existence within the grand scheme of Godus' design plans is a band-aid. They couldn't deal with the exponentially growing population problem and further exponential growth will remain a problem going forward. Its a stopgap, a temporary solution, a band-aid. In the grand scheme of things, this new area doesn't "change" anything. And unless they solve the other issues they'll keep running into them time and time again. So even if they add new mechanics that can be perceived as good - they won't be good because of the new area. They'd be good because they're good new mechanics. Mechanics that potentially add new problems and increase the pile of balancing issues and fixes going forward. Which goes back to Tiki's post - unless 22cans goes back and solves those inherent problems. They're gonna have quite an obstacle to overcome in the future.
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Post by hardly on Sept 23, 2014 21:23:18 GMT
There is precedence for this Islands approach in other games. It's not my preferred approach (I prefer one open world) but some of my favourite games including settlers 2 successfully used it. It tends to be in older games. What ok saying is the quality of the experience will depend on things like pacing, empowerment, meanies, astari and dynamic water/fertilisation. If 22cand nail all of these we won't be worry about the island factor. Having said that past experience suggests 22cans won't nail those features but we can hope they will.
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Post by Danjal on Sept 23, 2014 21:32:53 GMT
There is, but given what 22cans has said about their design intentions, they originally didn't plan to go with an approach like this. I'd go so far as to say that many of the recent additions and changes were all reactive ones to band-aid problems they encountered. Rather than purposeful design decisions. Which leads me to believe that rather than being in control of their project.
It is infact spinning out of control with them haphazardly trying to apply makeshift solutions and jury-rigging new mechanics to stay afloat. I would love to see 22cans stop, step back, look at what they have on hands right now. Then pick a direction and stick to it for a while. All the while keeping communications and development open and transparant.
Rather than constantly implementing bandaid solutions to the problems they encounter and scrabbling to keep up with things.
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Post by bed on Sept 23, 2014 21:38:56 GMT
'invest to play' but really your investment get thrown away to start again now. meh this all continues in a direction that is most unappealing.
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Post by hardly on Sept 23, 2014 21:55:57 GMT
Don't get me wrong I think 22cans approach is ass backwards and that this update will be more of the same but there is a small chance that this time they've got it right. Probably not though.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Sept 23, 2014 22:15:48 GMT
I really would like that they get it right too. I'm not all that interested in discussing balance and comms issues, I'd much prefer talking about the game and cool features of it, but so far they seem extremely intent on not giving us anything worth talking about that doesn't come back to balance and communications issues. =|
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Post by Danjal on Sept 23, 2014 22:17:05 GMT
Perhaps we need them to implement a new policy - invest-to-develop. For each new thing they add, they need to invest into the future of their game. Rather than just focusing on monetization, they need to invest in longevity and actual gameplay mechanics =D
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Post by earlparvisjam on Sept 23, 2014 22:37:22 GMT
Earl I don't think this new content as described is inherently bad or good. What will decide that is how well it's balanced, how well the new astari and meanies work and how novel the new areas/expansion are. For me I'm really interested to see if well be able to sculpt dynamic water. If we can't I will be disappointed. The new content, as proposed, has so many problems that even discussing implementation is a disservice to the gaming population. As a prime example, the arc's construction as described has a number of problems. For a game that already has days (notice that 's' in that word) long timers, any mention of a "long time" from 22Cans brings up the possibility of weeks. Since all the builders used to construct it will be the people that head for Wayworld, that means that 100-500 builders will be busy for the entire time the arc takes to construct. All this hints at a build time hovering at close to a month for a realistic accomplishment of this goal. That's a time frame with NOTHING to do since all resources will be going into its construction/kickoff. The Astari are a badly implemented and terribly broken mechanic and, before addressing this with a fix/change, have doubled down on them. Heck, they were problematic before the swamp nerf. Imagine the joy of starting over with two tribes of them to deal with. Fun isn't even close to a descriptor. Then, tack on a brand new untested faction with Molyneux only knows what new half-baked mechanics that come with it. I can't support anything at this point without some clear indication it'll work better than any of the existing train wreck mechanics. Settlements have been redone 3 times and they still don't work well. The dynamic rivers that are going to affect production will be nice, assuming they actually get the mechanics to work. If any aspect of this game worked properly, I'd be all for new features, but this feels like a bandaid. It's not even a bandaid for us, but for the second-biggest problem on mobile; the game is already hitting the limits of tablet hardware capabilities. To make it even worse, we've been pointing out these problems for ages. We'd warned of this sort of issue when the mobile release was announced back in March/April. All we got was silence. It doesn't take a 20 year veteran game designer to see when a project has stepped onto a pier and is marching straight for open water. Time's running out. We've hit 1 year into SEA and they can borrow from Peter to pay Paul for only so long.
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Post by Danjal on Sept 23, 2014 22:46:26 GMT
I predict that the Meanies will complaint to us that we're sculpting far too much and that our empire is far too flat. They will complain when we sacrifice our followers into the Pit of Doom and they will complain that we're not making the world look 'delicious and zen-like'. =D
I also predict that they will get a rename to "The bullies" rather than "the meanies".
And I do agree with Earl. The water mechanic is horrendously broken. If you so much as touch an existing river it just stops functioning and the water flows for about a third or less of the distance. Now imagine if you can only build near that water... So rather than having the entire MAP to fill with farms, you can only make a handful of farms near the water. The rest just don't work. Or are far slower.
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Post by hardly on Sept 23, 2014 23:05:04 GMT
I think the meanies might involve combat.
In terms of dynamic water i don't think well be able to sculpt rivers (although I hope we can), it's more likely rivers will be a god power that influences the terrain as this would be easier to implement. As danjal says dynamic water is seriously broken in current version.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Sept 23, 2014 23:05:40 GMT
I predict that the Meanies will complaint to us that we're sculpting far too much and that our empire is far too flat. They will complain when we sacrifice our followers into the Pit of Doom and they will complain that we're not making the world look 'delicious and zen-like'. =D I also predict that they will get a rename to "The bullies" rather than "the meanies". And I do agree with Earl. The water mechanic is horrendously broken. If you so much as touch an existing river it just stops functioning and the water flows for about a third or less of the distance. Now imagine if you can only build near that water... So rather than having the entire MAP to fill with farms, you can only make a handful of farms near the water. The rest just don't work. Or are far slower. My prediction for the Meanies is the first post-2.0 release combat implementation. Rather than lure away followers with happiness, they'll raid our areas and kill our people. Coupled with the Astari, there's going to be a lot fewer friendly people roaming around and doing stock animation activities. "Ooh, look, the Meanies have killed all the builders at that expansion shrine for the third time."
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Post by Gmr Leon on Sept 23, 2014 23:05:46 GMT
I predict that the Meanies will complaint to us that we're sculpting far too much and that our empire is far too flat. They will complain when we sacrifice our followers into the Pit of Doom and they will complain that we're not making the world look 'delicious and zen-like'. =D I think you have the roles reversed. The Meanies will be criticizing us for not sculpting enough and for not making our empire flat enough and that we're not sacrificing enough and that we're missing so many features. They'll be us, as you have it, they're 22cans. Which would be great for letting us annihilate them and vent if we so desired, but they made a Pit of Doom inspired by us. I predict that the Meanies will complaint to us that we're sculpting far too much and that our empire is far too flat. They will complain when we sacrifice our followers into the Pit of Doom and they will complain that we're not making the world look 'delicious and zen-like'. =D I also predict that they will get a rename to "The bullies" rather than "the meanies". And I do agree with Earl. The water mechanic is horrendously broken. If you so much as touch an existing river it just stops functioning and the water flows for about a third or less of the distance. Now imagine if you can only build near that water... So rather than having the entire MAP to fill with farms, you can only make a handful of farms near the water. The rest just don't work. Or are far slower. My prediction for the Meanies is the first post-2.0 release combat implementation. Rather than lure away followers with happiness, they'll raid our areas and kill our people. Coupled with the Astari, there's going to be a lot fewer friendly people roaming around and doing stock animation activities. "Ooh, look, the Meanies have killed all the builders at that expansion shrine for the third time." I'd say you're right. They'll probably raid us every hour or some set time and we'll have to defend ourselves or something. It'll be so dully predictable that the only annoying part will be that they'll have smashed up our civilization every time we load back in after not having played for a few hours. Please, please prove me wrong here 22cans. Stop trying to reinforce the notion that you can't do opponents. 1.03 proves that you can, to some degree.
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Post by hardly on Sept 24, 2014 0:15:06 GMT
I hope they don't raid while we are asleep
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Post by Danjal on Sept 24, 2014 0:34:54 GMT
Yea, the whole persistent world thing may be a nice touch for iOS where the whole farmville/maffia wars-esque progression is a thing. But it definitely doesn't do anyone any favours on PC.
It'd improve the game greatly if they shifted away from the offline/passive progression and focused more on online/active progression instead. Or atleast adjusted the pacing accordingly so that while you're online things progressed much faster, while certain events or occurances would be 'disabled' when you're not actually there.
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