Post by Danjal on Oct 15, 2014 5:40:38 GMT
Cross-posted from my steam-boards suggestion thread.
Starting with the outline.
So in response to the answer Peter has given in the Q&A video I would like to elaborate my perspective and a potential solution to the problem I forsee, with the current direction Godus is taking and how settlements may pose a problem.
Lets get one thing straight upfront, I don't think this is a high priority issue. Settlements "work" right now. This is something that will become a problem later on if its not dealt with however.
Right now we have a small and manageable number of settlements.
We're looking at 3 sizes (small, medium, large) and 3 types (builder, farmer, miner) for a total of 9 settlement selections.
I recognize that the perception of the previous iteration of settlements was that the three statues were "fiddly" and that that wasn't a direction that 22cans favoured.
I also recognize that this primarily is an issue for the iOS/mobile version of Godus where touch-screen controls allow for less accuracy than we on PC have with the mouse.
So some of you reading this (aswell as people from 22cans) may remember the previous iteration of the Timeline, where you had to scroll/slide around a lot to get to the stickers you wanted to. This is a problem that is growing larger and becoming more tedious and is something that Peter acknowledges as such in the Q&A video.
Something that starts out as a functional and 'enjoyable' mechanic, does not scale well as numbers grow bigger.
Settlements are going to run into a similar problem.
As more settlements get introduced and potentially larger settlements get introduced, we get more and more options filling up that sub-menu. Making it a hassle to manage.
A problem in perception
Before describing my proposed solution to this, I want to elaborate on another "problem" with settlements. Which is one of perception.
Based on what Peter mentioned in the Q&A video, I'm getting the feeling that he sees abodes as single houses, settlements as small hamlets or villages and intends to integrate these small hamlets/villages into larger multi-discipline cities later in the game.
Now argueably this is a functional solution. However it does not remove the abovementioned problem of a clogged up settlement selection menu.
Moreover, as we are seeing right now, Settlements scale up poorly.
I'm not just talking about the belief and resources they produce in comparison to individual abodes.
But I'm talking about pure base numbers.
We're seeing settlements that have thousands or even tens of thousands of followers living in them.
At the current pacing, our first "cities" (squeeze settlements together into a zoned city) will be millions or even multi-millions strong metropolises.
I'm not even going to get started on the potential damage that comes from performance.
Just the idea that a medieval city or whatnot has millions upon millions of people living in it just feels off.
So then, what IS the solution?
The solution I'm proposing, taking into account platform specific performance.
Aswell as taking into account avoiding fiddly menu's and problems.
That solution would be the following:
For starters, extend the metaphor.
Keep the numbers in your mind while working within the system.
Allowing a single settlement to keep growing, and maintaining a playable non-fiddly game. Without clogging any menu's or adding a ton of micro-management.
This would in turn be perfectly compatible with any form of "zoned" cities that may be created later on. And it would assist in keeping the entire game smooth and clean.
A secondary solution regarding performance
Right now we're seeing the following happen with farming and mining.
A larger plot size adds 1 to the "total resource count", while allowing for a larger production count.
In essence, there is no value in creating anything but size 1 plots with regards to unlocking technologies.
And the "stockpiled" resources (wheat and ore) are limited in usage, after building all the ore-beacons ore is basicly useless and wheat results in a similar resource drain.
Adding to this problem is the growing pathfinding issue slowing down the game.
So why not introduce the "settlement mechanic" to individual fields and mines aswell?
Squeezing together 3~4 or more seperate fields or mines into a single larger one with the farmers or miners forming a work-detail together. Thereby cutting down the pathfinding massively. Aswell as making more use of limited and valuable terrain. (Adding tactical depth and strategic decisions.)
Similarly builders can be equipped with small tents which they pitch up around the location they build. As opposed to walking up and down from their house to the build-site.
Allowing for a more accurate build timer (as they sleep/rest on-site) and a drastic decrease in pathfinding requirements to the game as a whole.
Some final thoughts
As you can see, these suggestions extend on the very problems as posed by Peter Molyneux himself.
Avoiding creating a messy or bogged down menu aswell as avoiding fiddly micro-management by extending the existing systems and focusing on making the game more enjoyable and smooth to play.
Starting with the outline.
So in response to the answer Peter has given in the Q&A video I would like to elaborate my perspective and a potential solution to the problem I forsee, with the current direction Godus is taking and how settlements may pose a problem.
Lets get one thing straight upfront, I don't think this is a high priority issue. Settlements "work" right now. This is something that will become a problem later on if its not dealt with however.
Right now we have a small and manageable number of settlements.
We're looking at 3 sizes (small, medium, large) and 3 types (builder, farmer, miner) for a total of 9 settlement selections.
I recognize that the perception of the previous iteration of settlements was that the three statues were "fiddly" and that that wasn't a direction that 22cans favoured.
I also recognize that this primarily is an issue for the iOS/mobile version of Godus where touch-screen controls allow for less accuracy than we on PC have with the mouse.
So some of you reading this (aswell as people from 22cans) may remember the previous iteration of the Timeline, where you had to scroll/slide around a lot to get to the stickers you wanted to. This is a problem that is growing larger and becoming more tedious and is something that Peter acknowledges as such in the Q&A video.
Something that starts out as a functional and 'enjoyable' mechanic, does not scale well as numbers grow bigger.
Settlements are going to run into a similar problem.
As more settlements get introduced and potentially larger settlements get introduced, we get more and more options filling up that sub-menu. Making it a hassle to manage.
A problem in perception
Before describing my proposed solution to this, I want to elaborate on another "problem" with settlements. Which is one of perception.
Based on what Peter mentioned in the Q&A video, I'm getting the feeling that he sees abodes as single houses, settlements as small hamlets or villages and intends to integrate these small hamlets/villages into larger multi-discipline cities later in the game.
Now argueably this is a functional solution. However it does not remove the abovementioned problem of a clogged up settlement selection menu.
Moreover, as we are seeing right now, Settlements scale up poorly.
I'm not just talking about the belief and resources they produce in comparison to individual abodes.
But I'm talking about pure base numbers.
We're seeing settlements that have thousands or even tens of thousands of followers living in them.
At the current pacing, our first "cities" (squeeze settlements together into a zoned city) will be millions or even multi-millions strong metropolises.
I'm not even going to get started on the potential damage that comes from performance.
Just the idea that a medieval city or whatnot has millions upon millions of people living in it just feels off.
So then, what IS the solution?
The solution I'm proposing, taking into account platform specific performance.
Aswell as taking into account avoiding fiddly menu's and problems.
That solution would be the following:
For starters, extend the metaphor.
Keep the numbers in your mind while working within the system.
- Step 1 - Simplify the menu.
Rather than adding more and more settlements and clogging the menu there, you keep things clean and simple.
Initially this would mean that you select the size settlement and that settlement becomes specified to the discipline you select (farmer, builder, miner etc). - Step 2 - Expansion and growth
Once you reach a certain population size as you're adding more and more abodes to a settlement. This changes and the city prompts you with the option to "add" a new discipline.
You can either do nothing, and it will continue as the game is right now keeping this entire settlement focused around a single industry.
OR you can select a secondary focus for this city that has now reached thousands in population.
This secondary focus allows you to place down a specialized industry HQ which will function as the "focus" for this new disciple. Thereby not resulting in fiddly menu's.
Your main settlement (or your initial focus HQ) will function as the basis for your first industry.
And your secondary focus HQ will function as the basis for your second industry.
Allowing a single settlement to keep growing, and maintaining a playable non-fiddly game. Without clogging any menu's or adding a ton of micro-management.
This would in turn be perfectly compatible with any form of "zoned" cities that may be created later on. And it would assist in keeping the entire game smooth and clean.
A secondary solution regarding performance
Right now we're seeing the following happen with farming and mining.
A larger plot size adds 1 to the "total resource count", while allowing for a larger production count.
In essence, there is no value in creating anything but size 1 plots with regards to unlocking technologies.
And the "stockpiled" resources (wheat and ore) are limited in usage, after building all the ore-beacons ore is basicly useless and wheat results in a similar resource drain.
Adding to this problem is the growing pathfinding issue slowing down the game.
So why not introduce the "settlement mechanic" to individual fields and mines aswell?
Squeezing together 3~4 or more seperate fields or mines into a single larger one with the farmers or miners forming a work-detail together. Thereby cutting down the pathfinding massively. Aswell as making more use of limited and valuable terrain. (Adding tactical depth and strategic decisions.)
Similarly builders can be equipped with small tents which they pitch up around the location they build. As opposed to walking up and down from their house to the build-site.
Allowing for a more accurate build timer (as they sleep/rest on-site) and a drastic decrease in pathfinding requirements to the game as a whole.
Some final thoughts
As you can see, these suggestions extend on the very problems as posed by Peter Molyneux himself.
Avoiding creating a messy or bogged down menu aswell as avoiding fiddly micro-management by extending the existing systems and focusing on making the game more enjoyable and smooth to play.
