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Post by Gmr Leon on Nov 14, 2014 19:16:51 GMT
...all the store pages for Godus, either on mobile or Steam, make no mentions of what's to come? No mention of battles or multiplayer, just the nothing that's there now. On one hand, it's obvious you can't mention them as being there, but shouldn't you want to hype up the players with what's intended? Unless, you know, you no longer intend those things or know what you intend to do with the game...
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Nov 14, 2014 21:26:49 GMT
I think they've hyped quite enough about what they 'intended'.
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tikigod
Master
Resistance is mean.
Posts: 115
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Post by tikigod on Nov 15, 2014 0:19:48 GMT
...all the store pages for Godus, either on mobile or Steam, make no mentions of what's to come? No mention of battles or multiplayer, just the nothing that's there now. On one hand, it's obvious you can't mention them as being there, but shouldn't you want to hype up the players with what's intended? Unless, you know, you no longer intend those things or know what you intend to do with the game... One would hope they've learnt their lesson. That or they've simply given up and plan to just release the game as is and throw in a few more themed rooms islands.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Nov 15, 2014 2:44:57 GMT
...all the store pages for Godus, either on mobile or Steam, make no mentions of what's to come? No mention of battles or multiplayer, just the nothing that's there now. On one hand, it's obvious you can't mention them as being there, but shouldn't you want to hype up the players with what's intended? Unless, you know, you no longer intend those things or know what you intend to do with the game... One would hope they've learnt their lesson. That or they've simply given up and plan to just release the game as is and throw in a few more themed rooms islands. I'm still half expecting to see them announce in early February that they've finished the PC Sprint - without us realizing they had even started it - and then releasing the full game from SEA in March. Hopefully they keep up the communication, and are honest about it - and keep George and Matt in the loop - so as not to blindside everyone. But we'll see...
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tikigod
Master
Resistance is mean.
Posts: 115
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Post by tikigod on Nov 15, 2014 12:22:21 GMT
One would hope they've learnt their lesson. That or they've simply given up and plan to just release the game as is and throw in a few more themed rooms islands. I'm still half expecting to see them announce in early February that they've finished the PC Sprint - without us realizing they had even started it - and then releasing the full game from SEA in March. Hopefully they keep up the communication, and are honest about it - and keep George and Matt in the loop - so as not to blindside everyone. But we'll see... Personally I lost much faith in the 'PC sprint', when it was mentioned on these forums that the PC Sprint is seen as an extra good will gesture to the PC players rather than an obligation as part of the core game development.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Nov 15, 2014 16:47:29 GMT
I hadn't heard the term PC sprint for a while and actually hadn't thought about it either.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Nov 15, 2014 18:10:36 GMT
I hadn't heard the term PC sprint for a while and actually hadn't thought about it either. And - sadly - a large part of me now feels that, from all our collective experiences thus far, that's exactly what they (the controlling parties at 22Cans) hope to accomplish with all this stalling and shifting of priorities; that we will eventually forget about all the {broken} promises because it's been so long, or we get fatigued with it all and simply move on. It's an old tactic that I wouldn't put past them in the slightest at this juncture - due in part because of all the other 'seeming' attempts at trickery, stalling, and slight-of-hand they've pulled over the last 2 years. Such a sad state of affairs they've wrought.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Nov 15, 2014 18:32:27 GMT
Agreed.
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
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Post by Raspofabs on Nov 17, 2014 13:20:20 GMT
Although not as reassuring as you would probably like, at our latest internal announcement meeting we did talk about planning who in the office would be moving away from maintenance and other mobile stuff, and those people would be the ones doing the PC sprint. So it's definitely on the roadmap.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Nov 17, 2014 14:23:07 GMT
Although not as reassuring as you would probably like, at our latest internal announcement meeting we did talk about planning who in the office would be moving away from maintenance and other mobile stuff, and those people would be the ones doing the PC sprint. So it's definitely on the roadmap. Very glad to hear that, it's somewhat encouraging to know. Thanks for informing us of that, RaspofabsI really and truly hope for the best possible outcome, or at least an agreeable middleground compromise. Not sure I speak for everyone, but I think most of us are still looking forward to a proper PC game focus - despite our obvious disappointment and disapproving criticisms. Granted we don't have much hope, or belief, that it will ever actually occour this point, but your effort - and continued presence on this board - is appreciated; it at least shows us that someone on staff (besides Matt and George) cares and is passionate.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 14:41:01 GMT
Although not as reassuring as you would probably like, at our latest internal announcement meeting we did talk about planning who in the office would be moving away from maintenance and other mobile stuff, and those people would be the ones doing the PC sprint. So it's definitely on the roadmap. I doubt you'll be able to answer this, but your comment makes it sound as if the PC Sprint will not be an "all hands on deck" approach as we've been told the mobile sprints have been, is that the case? I understand that the mobile side needs constant attention but it saddens me that the studio's full attention may never be set on PC, even for a short multi-week sprint. ...sigh. I've said it before, I think 22cans has been constantly fumbling a golden opportunity to turn their terrible image around and wow the PC crowd by delivering a smashing PC version. I don't think your doing yourselves any favours by mitigating that opportunity by possibly splitting your workload, after all, we've been told repeatedly by 22cans that splitting the studio between tasks would be folly. Regardless, good luck Rasbo and Team! I sincerely hope that by the end of the PC sprint those that have been assigned to the task will be satisfied that they have given their all and delivered their fans the best Godus PC version possible, and definitely something closer to what we backed in the first place. Cheers.
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Nov 17, 2014 16:05:31 GMT
Although not as reassuring as you would probably like, at our latest internal announcement meeting we did talk about planning who in the office would be moving away from maintenance and other mobile stuff, and those people would be the ones doing the PC sprint. So it's definitely on the roadmap. I doubt you'll be able to answer this, but your comment makes it sound as if the PC Sprint will not be an "all hands on deck" approach as we've been told the mobile sprints have been, is that the case? I understand that the mobile side needs constant attention but it saddens me that the studio's full attention may never be set on PC, even for a short multi-week sprint. ...sigh. I've said it before, I think 22cans has been constantly fumbling a golden opportunity to turn their terrible image around and wow the PC crowd by delivering a smashing PC version. I don't think your doing yourselves any favours by mitigating that opportunity by possibly splitting your workload, after all, we've been told repeatedly by 22cans that splitting the studio between tasks would be folly. Regardless, good luck Rasbo and Team! I sincerely hope that by the end of the PC sprint those that have been assigned to the task will be satisfied that they have given their all and delivered their fans the best Godus PC version possible, and definitely something closer to what we backed in the first place. Cheers. We could probably do the same job in less time if we didn't have to maintain the mobile version as well, but I wouldn't say that it would impact the amount of changes we are going to make, just the number of days the players have to wait for it. (I actually think it will improve the quality a little because there will be less builds per day meaning that bugs can be caught earlier during development, and people will have time to guide the development as the pace won't be breakneck like it's been for the last few months.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 1:31:03 GMT
I doubt you'll be able to answer this, but your comment makes it sound as if the PC Sprint will not be an "all hands on deck" approach as we've been told the mobile sprints have been, is that the case? I understand that the mobile side needs constant attention but it saddens me that the studio's full attention may never be set on PC, even for a short multi-week sprint. ...sigh. I've said it before, I think 22cans has been constantly fumbling a golden opportunity to turn their terrible image around and wow the PC crowd by delivering a smashing PC version. I don't think your doing yourselves any favours by mitigating that opportunity by possibly splitting your workload, after all, we've been told repeatedly by 22cans that splitting the studio between tasks would be folly. Regardless, good luck Rasbo and Team! I sincerely hope that by the end of the PC sprint those that have been assigned to the task will be satisfied that they have given their all and delivered their fans the best Godus PC version possible, and definitely something closer to what we backed in the first place. Cheers. We could probably do the same job in less time if we didn't have to maintain the mobile version as well, but I wouldn't say that it would impact the amount of changes we are going to make, just the number of days the players have to wait for it. (I actually think it will improve the quality a little because there will be less builds per day meaning that bugs can be caught earlier during development, and people will have time to guide the development as the pace won't be breakneck like it's been for the last few months. Thanks for your insight Rasbofabs.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Nov 24, 2014 11:44:09 GMT
...all the store pages for Godus, either on mobile or Steam, make no mentions of what's to come? Don't the new Steam Early Access guidelines expressly forbid that?
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Post by Danjal on Nov 24, 2014 12:03:10 GMT
...all the store pages for Godus, either on mobile or Steam, make no mentions of what's to come? Don't the new Steam Early Access guidelines expressly forbid that? The store page isn't allowed to make such promises - because the store page should reflect the product that is being sold. Which is to say, a currently very much incomplete and unbalance product with strong mobile and freemium tendencies. As opposed to "If you're patient, its going to get better soon! I promise!" Meanwhile, the project as a whole, should have a clear and concise goal and objectives. As to ensure that the developer/creator isn't just running around like a headless chicken. I don't think that using the new Steam Early Access regulations to excuse 22cans lack of solid planning is a particularly smart move... More importantly, its in the developers best interests to ensure that customers are satisfied and aware of the goings on if they want to sustain themselves in the SEA model. The main reason we're seeing projects drop out of SEA and crowdfunding in general is poor business management, planning and communications (often due to inexperience...).
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Post by Gmr Leon on Nov 24, 2014 12:32:19 GMT
As Danjal notes, I simply think some degree of guiding expectations outside of vague statements and neglecting the original goals/statements would be better than leading people on with what's there as if that's all there is to it or there will be to it.
It's kind of against the guidelines, but I think the guidelines are, as we've seen, sort of the result of stumbling about to begin with. What's the point in Early Access if you're not going to indicate where a project's going at all? That practically worsens the situation as much as it helps it. Instead of indicating where a project intends to go, now you'll get projects lying through their teeth about what they have, despite it very likely being a barebones experience.
I dunno, I see where Valve's coming from, but I think they're about as lost as everyone else on how to handle Early Access.
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Post by distraction on Nov 24, 2014 20:13:01 GMT
...all the store pages for Godus, either on mobile or Steam, make no mentions of what's to come? Don't the new Steam Early Access guidelines expressly forbid that? Maybe, but Kickstarter demands you do.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Nov 24, 2014 20:31:33 GMT
Don't the new Steam Early Access guidelines expressly forbid that? Maybe, but Kickstarter demands you do. Whoops. Looks like a slight conflict of terms. Quite a sticky wicket you have there.
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Post by Danjal on Nov 24, 2014 21:03:03 GMT
Its not really that big of a conflict...
It really is quite simple especially if you think about it. Kickstarter (crowdfunding in general) aims for a "final product". It presents you with a concept, with idea's and with a broad outline of how to get there. And then asks people to help kick it off the ground.
It helps "kickstart" the engine (hence the name) - a BIG BIG BIG issue with that is that people view Kickstarter and crowdfunding as the finish line. When in reality its merely the starting point. Without proper business and financial management aswell as future planning, its not going to get you anywhere. Relying solely on Early Access sales and your kickstarter money is a foolish endeavour unless you are 100% certain you can consistently deliver and convince more and more people to buy into your product.
Which becomes harder and harder as more projects collapse under poor management and planning. And as more and more people are getting stung.
So, its a two-edged blade. On the one hand you have kickstarter/crowdfunding, and your "in development" project as a whole. Which relies heavily on planning and communication/interaction with your players and customers. Keep in mind Early Access itself ALSO has a strong pillar of communication...
On the other you have the Steam *STORE* which is actually about selling products. What Valve did here isn't saying you can't plan for the future. But rather they are saying you can't sell hot air based on PROMISES for the future that you currently can not fullfill.
They are forced to put in this clause purely because Early Access developers/participants have been putting in a whole boatload of features that they would like to put into their game. Without the knowledge that they even CAN put them in. And I'm not talking solely time or funding, but also purely based on skill as a programmer. Hell, look at Godus. It started off with a promise of mobile and PC being interconnected. We all know where that ended up.
Now its a good thing that most of the PC users aren't particularly interested in that side, and probably are glad to see it gone as it means that its easier to split the PC development into a different balance and mechanics focus aswell.
However these new rules do not mean that Early Access developers can get away with saying nothing and just doing their thing in the darkness.
This has not changed... Valve is basicly just saying "Don't talk bullshit." Stay with the facts.
HONESTY & TRANSPARANCY rather than smoke and mirrors. And yes, honesty is double-edged. Honesty means saying things that your customers may not like to hear. Well TOUGH!, deal with it.
The reality is that its BETTER to hear something truthful that you do not want to hear than to be sold on lies and hot air. Early Access is far LESS about trying to market your game and sell based on words. And far more about generating those sales through actions - make a good game with feedback from your players and they will in turn spread the word and cause more sales. Piss off your players and they'll be damned sure to let everyone know what happened to the money they dropped on you.
We're not doing eachother 'favors' here. As a developer you only have ONE objective. Which is to generate revenue so you can keep doing your job, maybe get a bit extra on the side in the end. As a player and consumer we also only have a SINGLE objective, which is to get a fun game to play.
Thats it. No more strings attached. Fun game == revenue. It doesn't get much simpler than that in concept.
There are obviously some obstacles. Sometimes development is buggy and boring. Sometimes you need to go through a valley before you can climb to the mountain peak. And nobody said the road wouldn't be rough and bumpy. However to rely on manipulation alone isn't going to get you there.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Nov 25, 2014 11:18:15 GMT
Don't the new Steam Early Access guidelines expressly forbid that? Maybe, but Kickstarter demands you do. I think Danjal sums it up quite nicely here: On the one hand you have kickstarter/crowdfunding, and your "in development" project as a whole. Which relies heavily on planning and communication/interaction with your players and customers. Keep in mind Early Access itself ALSO has a strong pillar of communication... On the other you have the Steam *STORE* which is actually about selling products. What Valve did here isn't saying you can't plan for the future. But rather they are saying you can't sell hot air based on PROMISES for the future that you currently can not fullfill. Bingo.
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