(ir)Relevant tweets

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Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 21, 2015 17:28:41 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 21, 2015 17:28:41 GMT
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13thGeneral
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(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 21, 2015 17:30:57 GMT via mobile

Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 21, 2015 17:30:57 GMT

~facepalm~

It doesn't even mention that it's not a finished game!
It does mention its an early access, bit we all know that many people think of it as equivalent to a pre-order only that you can play it now; and they'll never click the "more info" link to research it.

Some people won't even look at the description.

I feel all this does is invite more people to be disappointed or dissatisfied with the game, when they see how brilliantly broken it is atm - tho it may take a while to realize, what with the time it takes to get that far. By then they may be beyond the rebate period.

Last Edit: Aug 21, 2015 17:40:54 GMT by 13thGeneral

"I used to be a wastelander like you, until I took a settlement to the quest log"

"The More You Know."™ ≈≈≈≈≈★

Gmr Leon
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(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 21, 2015 18:02:29 GMT Lord Ba'al likes this

Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 21, 2015 18:02:29 GMT

As much as I may agree, I think it's the only appropriate way to sell it anymore. It minimizes the frustration by telling you at least you got some things out of the transaction rather than the nothing of getting it on its own. That's the only reason I wasn't more frustrated by Spacebase DF-9, as it would turn out.

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 26, 2015 19:59:31 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 26, 2015 19:59:31 GMT
	This town cannot accommodate the numerical totality of our combined mass.

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 27, 2015 21:15:09 GMT Deth, Matthew Allen, and 1 more like this Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 27, 2015 21:15:09 GMT
	This town cannot accommodate the numerical totality of our combined mass.

Matthew Allen Former 22Cans staff Full Time Rock Star Posts: 295 Pledge level: Elemental Steam: MrMatthewAllen	(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 28, 2015 16:04:38 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Matthew Allen on Aug 28, 2015 16:04:38 GMT Aug 20, 2015 9:57:56 GMT greay said: Aug 20, 2015 4:49:38 GMT Lord Ba'al said: Just gonna leave these here in case anybody needs them... Did you read the article? What'd you think?
	Less Human \| More being

greay
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(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 29, 2015 8:57:45 GMT Lord Ba'al and morsealworth like this

Post by greay on Aug 29, 2015 8:57:45 GMT

Aug 28, 2015 16:04:38 GMT Matthew Allen said:

Did you read the article? What'd you think?

It's an interesting question. I did read it, and on the whole I agree with most of it. Is the entire industry too secretive? No. Different developers are more or less secretive, as suits them, and that's fine, for the most part.

But specifics is where it falls apart. First off, he mentions the response to the Mass Effect ending – now, I only played the first one, but I'm aware of the controversy (?) surrounding the third one's ending. And I totally understand it. But that's not really an issue of secrecy, that was just a bad decision. It's not that the fans felt they were promised "16 endings" and were disappointed / angry that they didn't get them, it's that for a series about player choice and making decisions that matter, taking that away at the ending isn't a good idea. I did play Deus Ex:Human Revolution, and it suffered from the same problem (even though there were technically more endings) – the way the ending was handled ran counter to everything that made the game good.

Icepick Lodge is a developer that's pretty secretive about their development. They've run 2 kickstarters, both of which I've backed. I don't want them to be less secretive. They do share some stuff, but it's often ... more poetic than it is informative, per se. Their communications suit their games, though, so I'm happy. There's plenty of other developers that keep their cards close to their chest, and usually I do think it's to their benefit (and mine, because mystery breeds excitement).

On the other hands, there's games like Crea (which I've talked about on occasion here). It's a 2D side-scrolling crafting game. They're very open about development, and discuss things w/the community and really responsive to feedback, often adding things to the game or changing them based on feedback. And the developer regularly live-streams development on Twitch, where you can talk to him & see how he makes things happen. Eco (discussion over in the kickstarter subformum here) is actually offering source code access to a limited number of backers.

But we're here to talk about Godus, right?

Godus sold itself on being in the latter category – open, collaborative development. And then it went around and did the opposite, and people were understandably upset. It's one thing for a game to change directions during development; it's another entirely to change things after you've made promises and taken people's money. It's not minor things, either – I have to believe that fans would be understanding if the changes made a better game – but in the case of Godus, like with the introduction of the F2P mechanics, some of the changes unquestionably made for a worse game.

So... yeah. I agree. except for all that text up there where I disagree.

hardly
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(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 29, 2015 21:53:07 GMT Lord Ba'al, morsealworth, and 1 more like this

Post by hardly on Aug 29, 2015 21:53:07 GMT

If a company produces a game, releases it for review one week before release and markets it honestly, then what is the scope for complaining? I guess if it is Diablo 4 then people will have inbuilt expectations but if it is a new game called Space Adventures then there will be no expectations other than the ones you create. No expectations means no disappointment.

I think where the games industry has gotten into trouble is the use of the "blockbuster" method from the movie industry:

In the months pre-dating Batman‍ 's release in June 1989, a popular culture phenomenon rose known as "Batmania".[40] Over $750 million worth of merchandise was sold.[30] Cult filmmaker and comic book writer Kevin Smith remembered: "That summer was huge. You couldn't turn around without seeing the Bat-Signal somewhere. People were cutting it into their fucking heads. It was just the summer of Batman and if you were a comic book fan it was pretty hot."[58]

Most game companies use this method for major releases and Matthew you discuss some of the techniques in your post. But should they? If the issue is fan expectations and disappointment, should a developer be whipping the fan interest into a frenzy? And that only for the developers that are honest.

What about Assassins Creed Unity, Batman Arkham Knight, SimCity, Rome Total War II, Aliens: Colonial Marines? All these games developers knew were rotten but didn't fully disclose their state before release. In the case of Assassin's Creed Unity they had a embargo to stop reviewers publishing opinions leaving only their controlled hype to guide customers. Is it any wonder then that once people played their flawed and broken game, with no opportunity to inform themselves before purchase, they were outraged?

You have to ask whether preorders should be banned by developers. If game developers wanted to run an honest business they would not allow digital preorders. Why have half a million people preordered then next CoD Game on Xbox One 16 weeks from release? Are they worried their wont be enough copies to go around? www.vgchartz.com/preorders/

Note the difference between how RTWII is discussed by the same publication before and after release:

www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/08/01/hands-on-total-war-rome-ii/

Creative Assembly have made a game with so many graphics, with such incredible fidelity and scale, that it puts every future-generation explosion and racing car to shame. And it’s a STRATEGY game. Now, can be quite curmudgeonly about this sort of thing – a strategy game should wear a sturdy cloth map and very little else, but playing Rome, as it strutted around like a peacock, flexing its tailfeathers, I was inclined to applaud vigorously.

www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/03/the-rps-verdict-total-war-rome-ii/

So then. I am usually in the Total War apologist camp, but not this time. I am not sure if it’s because I had a better experience with Shogun 2, or whether there’s some kind of allergy due to over-exposure going on, but Rome II rubbed me up the wrong druid.

Oh the difference a month makes.

Information is a two edged sword. Developers have used it for financial gain for a long time and then complained about the backlash. Molyneux used hype, crowd funding and early access for his financial benefit. When the fury of dashed expectations hit, the development community embraced him and played the "we are just struggling creators and its hard" card. You allude to this idea of difficult creative endeavours in your post. I'm not saying development isn't hard but when you intentionally release selective information to create hype, when you release your game in early access, when you use kickstarter and when you embargo reviews, you are gaining financially but you are also laying the fuel for a firestorm. All it takes is one spark and whoosh, everything goes up in flame. Perhaps it is better not to lay the fuel, allow the reviews a week to be published before your game, and then release it to a knowing and informed public. Then if the game disappoints, well people had their chance to inform themselves.

I don't disagree with your article Matthew, but developers need to think about how they are manipulating the information flow. If fans should keep their expectations in check then it is incumbent on developers not to tempt them otherwise. Perhaps the only communication should be "it will be done when it is done."

I really this is a completely unrealistic suggestion. Profit making companies will always hype as their is no disadvantage to preorders and heightened fan anticipation but if developers are going to go along with that business model then they can hardly cry when the hopes they raised aren't met and the pitch forks come out. If you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Matthew Allen
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(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 30, 2015 18:34:14 GMT Lord Ba'al and kakatoe like this

Post by Matthew Allen on Aug 30, 2015 18:34:14 GMT

Aug 29, 2015 8:57:45 GMT greay said:

But we're here to talk about Godus, right?

Not necessarily. That's what the (ir) is for at the beginning of the thread title. Some things, such as that tweet which was posted on my behalf, can be about broader topics within the games industry at large. I suppose I was just curious as to why, in response to an article that I felt was fairly tame, your reply was to hand out pitch forks while contributing absolutely no opinion of your own.

Regarding the article itself, it's not attempting to hold an all-encompassing all-sweeping opinion on the matter. Rather, there are complex challenges within the industry regarding how to communicate useful information to players in a productive and meaningful way when, at the same time, players cannot be expected to have as intimate an understanding of a project's development as those working 8+ hours a day on it for years at a time. I'm all for transparency, mind you, and I think my track record has shown that, if anything, I sometimes fly a bit too close to the sun when it comes to being uninhibited in my directness. At the same time, there's also a challenge that arises regularly with the small army of armchair experts that seem to so often plague the internet on pretty much any topic you can imagine - games are no different. Any dev can likely tell you how often they've seen people vehemently complain about an industry and process that they so clearly, and deeply, have no first hand or even fundamental understanding of. Yet, where does responsibility lie with combating industry ignorance and promoting a more transparent development process without sacrificing the integrity of that process or the patience of the community? I'd argue that it's a shared responsibility. I feel the article is arguing the same but is simply highlighting issues more specific to the development side of things (which is kind of the point of that fellow's blog to begin with). Anyhow, long story short, this issue isn't quite as two dimensional as some might think.

Also this:

Last Edit: Aug 30, 2015 19:12:02 GMT by Matthew Allen

Less Human | More being

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 30, 2015 20:04:11 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 30, 2015 20:04:11 GMT
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greay
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(ir)Relevant tweets Aug 31, 2015 11:18:36 GMT

Post by greay on Aug 31, 2015 11:18:36 GMT

Aug 30, 2015 18:34:14 GMT Matthew Allen said:

Aug 29, 2015 8:57:45 GMT greay said:

But we're here to talk about Godus, right?

I do agree that the article was fairly tame, and I'm well aware that covers a wider subject range (like I said, I really do mostly agree with everything in that post). What I meant by that was, and why I posted the pitchforks, is because of the context here – this forum as a whole is dedicated to Godus. So naturally I read the article with that in mind, and read in that lens, my interpretation is very different.That, coupled with the community as a whole's ... volatile nature (have you seen the Steam forums? </sarcasm>) led to a moment of thinking "ha ha, it would be funny to post a picture of pitchforks in response to this relatively tame article". That's all.

Aug 30, 2015 18:34:14 GMT Matthew Allen said:

Regarding the article itself, it's not attempting to hold an all-encompassing all-sweeping opinion on the matter. Rather, there are complex challenges within the industry regarding how to communicate useful information to players in a productive and meaningful way when, at the same time, players cannot be expected to have as intimate an understanding of a project's development as those working 8+ hours a day on it for years at a time. I'm all for transparency, mind you, and I think my track record has shown that, if anything, I sometimes fly a bit too close to the sun when it comes to being uninhibited in my directness. At the same time, there's also a challenge that arises regularly with the small army of armchair experts that seem to so often plague the internet on pretty much any topic you can imagine - games are no different. Any dev can likely tell you how often they've seen people vehemently complain about an industry and process that they so clearly, and deeply, have no first hand or even fundamental understanding of. Yet, where does responsibility lie with combating industry ignorance and promoting a more transparent development process without sacrificing the integrity of that process or the patience of the community? I'd argue that it's a shared responsibility. I feel the article is arguing the same but is simply highlighting issues more specific to the development side of things (which is kind of the point of that fellow's blog to begin with). Anyhow, long story short, this issue isn't quite as two dimensional as some might think.

Also this:

Honestly, I'm still pretty much 100% in agreement with you here. I'm not sure about the "shared responsibility" part, but not because I think you're wrong, just I don't know whose responsibility it is. I imagine it's going to be different in different circumstances, but yeah. I don't know.

As for the Cleese bit ... I love that bit. I think it's a powerful sentiment, and largely true, but also a great oversimplification. It misses a very important person – also the subject of an annoying platitude. "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." Or critics. They're a little rarer than the critics who do have some skill in the field they critique, but they absolutely exist. And they're not stupid, because they know they're not skilled. But they have a good eye, and understand the medium (whatever medium in question). Is every food critic a chef? Of course not. But is everyone a food critic? Not in the slightest.

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Sept 1, 2015 21:03:11 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 1, 2015 21:03:11 GMT
	This town cannot accommodate the numerical totality of our combined mass.

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Sept 3, 2015 22:07:03 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 3, 2015 22:07:03 GMT
	This town cannot accommodate the numerical totality of our combined mass.

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Sept 16, 2015 20:55:22 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 16, 2015 20:55:22 GMT
	This town cannot accommodate the numerical totality of our combined mass.

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Sept 22, 2015 18:43:45 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 22, 2015 18:43:45 GMT
	This town cannot accommodate the numerical totality of our combined mass.

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Sept 23, 2015 19:05:02 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 23, 2015 19:05:02 GMT
	This town cannot accommodate the numerical totality of our combined mass.

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Sept 24, 2015 20:21:28 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 24, 2015 20:21:28 GMT
	This town cannot accommodate the numerical totality of our combined mass.

heggers Master Posts: 203 Pledge level: Partner	(ir)Relevant tweets Sept 28, 2015 8:12:14 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by heggers on Sept 28, 2015 8:12:14 GMT Sept 24, 2015 20:21:28 GMT Lord Ba'al said: And to think of the number of times I just strolled on by the stand over the last 4 days... Probably for the best

Lord Ba'al Supreme Deity Posts: 6,260 Pledge level: Half a Partner I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape. I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames. Steam: stonelesscutter GOG: stonelesscutter	(ir)Relevant tweets Oct 7, 2015 21:32:39 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Lord Ba'al on Oct 7, 2015 21:32:39 GMT
	This town cannot accommodate the numerical totality of our combined mass.

13thGeneral Young God Productively Procrastinating Posts: 1,973 Pledge level: Supporter	(ir)Relevant tweets Oct 8, 2015 11:50:53 GMT Lord Ba'al, heggers, and 2 more like this Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by 13thGeneral on Oct 8, 2015 11:50:53 GMT
	Last Edit: Oct 8, 2015 12:00:57 GMT by 13thGeneral "I used to be a wastelander like you, until I took a settlement to the quest log" "The More You Know."™ ≈≈≈≈≈★

Shoutbox

Griffork: I'm back! Just saw the trailer of Masters of Albion and it's a godgame! Immediately thought of this forum and decided to visit. Aug 21, 2024 7:51:22 GMT

Griffork: I think I've sent you a discord friend request (if I've done it right) Ba'al! Aug 21, 2024 7:53:46 GMT

Griffork: Sorry for being away for so long. The job I had at the beginning of the year seems to be having a full-blown melt-down (and I got caught in it). I'm now at a new place but the new job has been a very hectic learning experience (yay for being on R&D!) Aug 21, 2024 7:55:26 GMT

hardly: Dammit you beat me I wanted to be first to come back just to remark that he’s at it again. Aug 21, 2024 10:08:21 GMT

hardly: Anyway, just wanted to say hi for old times sake. Damn Peter Molyneux. Aug 21, 2024 10:09:55 GMT

Lord Ba'al: lol\ Aug 21, 2024 17:32:20 GMT

Lord Ba'al: Hi hardly! Hi Griffork! Aug 21, 2024 17:32:42 GMT

Lord Ba'al: He is indeed at it again. I read a few lines from some article saying he took something from this game and something from that game and something from yet another game and put it all together. Aug 21, 2024 17:34:06 GMT

Lord Ba'al: Then it mentioned there was this big hand mouse cursor, and I was like, nah, this will be shit. Aug 21, 2024 17:34:25 GMT

Lord Ba'al: Initially it was promising though, as it mentioned he had "put the old band back together". Aug 21, 2024 17:35:05 GMT

Lord Ba'al: By the way, I closed the whole forum for posting, due to the fact that all that was being posted was spam, but if anyone wants to make a post, I'm happy to open it up again, even if that's maybe just temporarily. Aug 21, 2024 17:36:02 GMT

Lord Ba'al: Or... post in the spammer section, and I can always move it elsewhere