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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 8, 2015 14:40:03 GMT
Relax, my skin is thick. I picked the god powers in combat topic, because I felt that this was an area I could do with some input in. It's a tricky problem and I'd like to see if a) You can come up with solutions that haven't occurred to me and b) Whether you can provide feedback in a fashion that makes it worth my time to do this. It's just one topic, nice and discrete to get us started and you should not read too much into why I chose this topic first. I like to plan ahead. Also I really don't need you to tell me what you'd like to see fixed first, we've collated this data already. We'll be working through this list in order of easy wins, because right now you need to see some results and not for us to go dark for 6 months. Again I will point out that radical overhauls of core systems are not feasible at this point. We will be fixing what is already there and adding new features in small increments. When we hit a roadblock where we really can't work around the limitations of the current codebase that will be the time for difficult decisions. But there is a lot we can do to improve the overall experience prior to that point and that is where my focus will be. If you put whipped cream on a turd, it doesn't become a sunday... Even if you put a cherry on top. Sculpting is barely acceptable. Resource acquisition is a half-baked joke. The sticker mechanic is an insult to anyone playing the game. Adding new features isn't going to change that one bit. I understand how daunting your job is. You've been given lead on a failed project that nobody wants to admit has failed. What I think you fail to understand is that I'm pointing at issues that this community has been complaining about since day 1. This project has spent nearly two years avoiding addressing glaring problems that go all the way to the foundation of the game's mechanics. If a bridge's structural support is found defective during construction, you don't just go ahead and keep building on top of it. We've been at this for quite some time now and I'm exhausted watching 22Cans sidestep these problems. I'm frustrated that what you're planning sounds like bolting on some new features rather than actually making this a decent pc game. I commend your efforts but can see where this is heading and refuse to ignore the glaring and obvious problems in favor of talking about extras. While I'm willing to believe your attempts are in earnest, we've been told things will be different so many times it's become cliche. I don't know you. I only know what 22Cans has said for the last 1.5 years to the community and to myself. We've spent a year listening to Baghdad Bob. Every time we've brought up how the core game is flawed, we've been told to be patient. The game isn't finished and we just don't see the big picture. We were assured another 2 years of development. That was, at best, wishful thinking. Every single time we encountered another deadline, another excuse is made to dodge responsibility and stall for time. Whether it was the autumn pc focus, the all-encompassing iterative design, iOS non-disclosure, or it's still only 49% finished excuses, we've been told to be patient and asked to curb our negativity for a while. Each time, we've been given another excuse to stall for time. By this point, it's more than clear that if the core problems aren't addressed soon, they're never going to be addressed at all. It's absurd to ask us to come up with additional content when we still don't know what Godus even is. Beyond being a "god game", it has no focus. It has no objective. It has no point. There's no winning or losing. The timeline goes nowhere, and barely scratches the promised surface. This is a mmo that has NEVER even had an online presence. Hubworld is gone. Commandments are gone. What you're doing is trying to turn a mockup into a finished product. It doesn't work that way. It's why so many of us have so little faith. The best thing you could do is to rework the base and try to move from there. If that's too much work and you don't have the budget for it, then you're just the target dummy for the community while the rest of the company looks for a way to hide from the fallout. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change it and I refuse to buy into that fantasy. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 8, 2015 14:45:13 GMT
Hi Moo - please take this as constructive and not me having a pop. So I wonder why your experimental thread relates solely to combat and god powers use during combat. You've played Godus before you joined 22cans right? Is the rushed military introduction your highest priority or are you just trying to see what the community can offer input wise? If your just testing the waters, thats fine and dandy, but when you ask us what we'd like to see fixed the majority I think will point to features other than what was just added (military). You want positive input, I think you are best listing what you can/will work on in a poll, asking what the community thinks should take priority and would add most to Godus (quick wins) then question us on what we'd do design/implementation wise about the most popular item(s) as in your design threads. Relax, my skin is thick. I picked the god powers in combat topic, because I felt that this was an area I could do with some input in. It's a tricky problem and I'd like to see if a) You can come up with solutions that haven't occurred to me and b) Whether you can provide feedback in a fashion that makes it worth my time to do this. It's just one topic, nice and discrete to get us started and you should not read too much into why I chose this topic first. I like to plan ahead. Also I really don't need you to tell me what you'd like to see fixed first, we've collated this data already. We'll be working through this list in order of easy wins, because right now you need to see some results and not for us to go dark for 6 months. Again I will point out that radical overhauls of core systems are not feasible at this point. We will be fixing what is already there and adding new features in small increments. When we hit a roadblock where we really can't work around the limitations of the current codebase that will be the time for difficult decisions. But there is a lot we can do to improve the overall experience prior to that point and that is where my focus will be. OK thanks for clearing that up a bit, to me it just seemed you were asking us about the first item on your list, not just getting opinions on one of many. I look forward to the lots of little wins to test out. One question though if you have time, will be seeing builds on a regular basis, like before Christmas? They were most welcome regular updates. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 8, 2015 14:56:24 GMT
Yeah I get you're angry, but if I'm being perfectly candid that is of very little interest to me from a practical point of view. My job isn't community relations and I can't claim any responsibility for design direction or the way community was handled prior to this point, so I will not engage at all in these topics. If you guys want to express your frustrations and grievances that's cool with me, Dave will engage you about those, but keep them to appropriate threads please. I'm here to discuss the improvement of existing game features and planning of new features ONLY. I will be adding more topics, but I've already put too much time into the forums this week, I have to get on with some work. Qetesh, the fact that you hate combat actually makes your feedback valuable. Why not try to abstract the concepts behind the combat and provide feedback based on that. Combat is in it's basic essence a contest of numbers after all. In terms of systems and mechanics without any graphical interpretation; the same systems could be applied to two armies engaging in bloody battle or two artists having a paint off. My comment about being angry was not directed at you, but more to PM, and so in this case his CMs would be who I would expect to respond. I encourage players to direct game design input to you and their general concerns to the CMs however this drift thread is open for rants and aside from specific threads like your DEV threads most other are fairly censor free. Would you like me to suggest those type of concepts on the combat thread or hold off for another thread? I can start here and take it from there, I can also move it if you prefer.  I prefer a contest of a more thought involved process. I guess you could call it a non combative contest similar to a quiz off than the gladiator battles. I am NOT referring to a click off in any means, much more mental power would be needed similar to Monkey Island and Myst style. I would actually not even have a problem with a cosmetic store, such a Sims has, selling clues to it, as long as the goals were still quite achievable minus the purchasable clues, and clues only, not accelerators or answers of any kind. I might also suggest a daily bonus trivia question available in the cosmetic store for free, with answers and clues NEVER for sale, where if correct you are given a small cosmetic feature permanently or a big cool one for a limited amount of time. This would help encourage the daily use but not penalize for not doing it, it would create more income for 22cans on a non F2p basis, and broaden your market to those that like using their brain as well as brawn in the battle that would become part of Godus, I also really prefer any true combat is voluntary to all players. As far as the God powers used in battles, I would suggest more of 2015 that has not been done before in previous versions. Check out some powers that Superheroes and mythological Gods have and mix them with some Guardians of the Galaxy and Star Trek-esque abilities. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 8, 2015 15:00:57 GMT
With the focus seeming to be on military units, should we imply that the current sticker system isn't going to change much? All the focus on high-level changes only locks in the current foundation. It's hard to make recommendations when we don't like fundamental aspects of this game. If the framework of this game is up for rework, then we should start there. The more that's layered on top of the existing framework, the harder it will be to change that framework over time. It's a difficult balancing act, while I agree some of the core systems are fundamentally flawed, at this stage it is simply unfeasible to start re-writing the game from the ground up. The sticker and card system is not the way I would have gone, but it's functional so for now it'll have to do. I'll be looking into ways on how to improve the system, but it's not the most pressing issue right now. When looking at the big picture there is a danger to get overwhelmed by just how much work there needs to be done and become paralysed as a result. Right now I have to be very much in the mindset of breaking up problems into small individual and manageable tasks and working through them methodically. Improvements will come in slow increments not in large overhauls. Also one of the points of these design feedback threads is to identify which part of the game fundamental systems will need reworking. A full design for the combat system will highlight core mechanic fundamentals which will have to be worked on. At that point I will have to make some decisions on what is feasible and what isn't and which compromises will have to be made etc. If your foundation is shaky, you don't keep tossing more things onto it. That's a recipe for disaster. We've been pointing out issues with the core design for a good year now, if you want a list, we could save a lot of time and just hash it out for you. You're never going to fix those core problems if you don't do it now. Be honest with yourself on this point. The project is on its last legs and this is a Hail Mary pass. There aren't too many people that will buy into the idea that this game will be any good without fixing them so you're risking this being a fool's errand. The community's been running on wishful thinking for far too long already. That bag of pixie dust is all used up. If I'm in a restaurant and I'm served a fly in my soup, I'm going to want that dealt with. I'm not going to want to spend time discussing whether or not the soup should come with bread sticks or what drink I'd like to have. |
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 8, 2015 15:12:49 GMT
Yeah I get you're angry, but if I'm being perfectly candid that is of very little interest to me from a practical point of view. My job isn't community relations and I can't claim any responsibility for design direction or the way community was handled prior to this point, so I will not engage at all in these topics. If you guys want to express your frustrations and grievances that's cool with me, Dave will engage you about those, but keep them to appropriate threads please. I'm here to discuss the improvement of existing game features and planning of new features ONLY. I will be adding more topics, but I've already put too much time into the forums this week, I have to get on with some work. Qetesh, the fact that you hate combat actually makes your feedback valuable. Why not try to abstract the concepts behind the combat and provide feedback based on that. Combat is in it's basic essence a contest of numbers after all. In terms of systems and mechanics without any graphical interpretation; the same systems could be applied to two armies engaging in bloody battle or two artists having a paint off. My comment about being angry was not directed at you, but more to PM, and so in this case his CMs would be who I would expect to respond. I encourage players to direct game design input to you and their general concerns to the CMs however this drift thread is open for rants and aside from specific threads like your DEV threads most other are fairly censor free. Would you like me to suggest those type of concepts on the combat thread or hold off for another thread? I can start here and take it from there, I can also move it if you prefer. I prefer a contest of a more thought involved process. I guess you could call it a non combative contest similar to a quiz off than the gladiator battles. I am NOT referring to a click off in any means, much more mental power would be needed similar to Monkey Island and Myst style. I would actually not even have a problem with a cosmetic store, such a Sims has, selling clues to it, as long as the goals were still quite achievable minus the purchasable clues, and clues only, not accelerators of any kind. I might also suggest a daily bonus trivia question, with answers NEVER for sale, where if correct you are given a small cosmetic feature permanently or a big cool one for a limited amount of time. This would help encourage the daily use but not penalize for not doing it, it would create more income for 22cans on a non F2p basis, and broaden your market to those that like using their brain as well as brawn in the battle that would become part of Godus, I also really prefer any true combat is voluntary to all players. As far as the God powers used in battles, I would suggest more of 2015 that has not been done before in previous versions. Check out some powers that Superheroes and mythological Gods have and mix them with some Guardians of the Galaxy and Star Trek-esque abilities. As far as the ongoing balance overhaul, I'll be trying to update on a weekly basis at least on the opt in branch. These changes won't be immediately obvious. As for features, really can't say, it will depend on the feature. Quetesh, this puzzle/quiz thing is not something I have thought about at all and is not something anyone has requested to my knowledge. If you feel strongly about it I would suggest you take the initiative write a basic design for this and I'll be happy to take a look. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 8, 2015 15:19:10 GMT
My comment about being angry was not directed at you, but more to PM, and so in this case his CMs would be who I would expect to respond. I encourage players to direct game design input to you and their general concerns to the CMs however this drift thread is open for rants and aside from specific threads like your DEV threads most other are fairly censor free. Would you like me to suggest those type of concepts on the combat thread or hold off for another thread? I can start here and take it from there, I can also move it if you prefer. I prefer a contest of a more thought involved process. I guess you could call it a non combative contest similar to a quiz off than the gladiator battles. I am NOT referring to a click off in any means, much more mental power would be needed similar to Monkey Island and Myst style. I would actually not even have a problem with a cosmetic store, such a Sims has, selling clues to it, as long as the goals were still quite achievable minus the purchasable clues, and clues only, not accelerators of any kind. I might also suggest a daily bonus trivia question, with answers NEVER for sale, where if correct you are given a small cosmetic feature permanently or a big cool one for a limited amount of time. This would help encourage the daily use but not penalize for not doing it, it would create more income for 22cans on a non F2p basis, and broaden your market to those that like using their brain as well as brawn in the battle that would become part of Godus, I also really prefer any true combat is voluntary to all players. As far as the God powers used in battles, I would suggest more of 2015 that has not been done before in previous versions. Check out some powers that Superheroes and mythological Gods have and mix them with some Guardians of the Galaxy and Star Trek-esque abilities. As far as the ongoing balance overhaul, I'll be trying to update on a weekly basis at least on the opt in branch. These changes won't be immediately obvious. As for features, really can't say, it will depend on the feature. Quetesh, this puzzle/quiz thing is not something I have thought about at all and is not something anyone has requested to my knowledge. If you feel strongly about it I would suggest you take the initiative write a basic design for this and I'll be happy to take a look. My forte is more business administration than game design, how would I create a design for it? I did mention it ions ago on 22cans but it was probably pruned from the alpha or early beta threads. Do I just kinda make it ala wish list style? Like what I would hope it would play like? I have no coding, game design or programming skills at all. I am more of the CFO type, ironic as that sounds. Please let me know how to go about laying that out so that it relate to your input criteria and I will do some research and put something together and then make a new thread for it. |
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 8, 2015 15:39:53 GMT
As far as the ongoing balance overhaul, I'll be trying to update on a weekly basis at least on the opt in branch. These changes won't be immediately obvious. As for features, really can't say, it will depend on the feature. Quetesh, this puzzle/quiz thing is not something I have thought about at all and is not something anyone has requested to my knowledge. If you feel strongly about it I would suggest you take the initiative write a basic design for this and I'll be happy to take a look. My forte is more business administration than game design, how would I create a design for it? I did mention it ions ago on 22cans but it was probably pruned from the alpha or early beta threads. Do I just kinda make it ala wish list style? Like what I would hope it would play like? I have no coding, game design or programming skills at all. I am more of the CFO type, ironic as that sounds. Please let me know how to go about laying that out so that it relate to your input criteria and I will do some research and put something together and then make a new thread for it. I'm not expecting a proper design doc or anything. All you are trying to do is communicate to me how this system would work in the game, do that in whatever way you feel is most effective. Try to visualise how it would look and work in game and all the steps involved. Imagine yourself using the system and take me through what you are doing. |
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 8, 2015 15:41:15 GMT
It's a difficult balancing act, while I agree some of the core systems are fundamentally flawed, at this stage it is simply unfeasible to start re-writing the game from the ground up. The sticker and card system is not the way I would have gone, but it's functional so for now it'll have to do. I'll be looking into ways on how to improve the system, but it's not the most pressing issue right now. When looking at the big picture there is a danger to get overwhelmed by just how much work there needs to be done and become paralysed as a result. Right now I have to be very much in the mindset of breaking up problems into small individual and manageable tasks and working through them methodically. Improvements will come in slow increments not in large overhauls. Also one of the points of these design feedback threads is to identify which part of the game fundamental systems will need reworking. A full design for the combat system will highlight core mechanic fundamentals which will have to be worked on. At that point I will have to make some decisions on what is feasible and what isn't and which compromises will have to be made etc. If your foundation is shaky, you don't keep tossing more things onto it. That's a recipe for disaster. We've been pointing out issues with the core design for a good year now, if you want a list, we could save a lot of time and just hash it out for you. You're never going to fix those core problems if you don't do it now. Be honest with yourself on this point. The project is on its last legs and this is a Hail Mary pass. There aren't too many people that will buy into the idea that this game will be any good without fixing them so you're risking this being a fool's errand. The community's been running on wishful thinking for far too long already. That bag of pixie dust is all used up. If I'm in a restaurant and I'm served a fly in my soup, I'm going to want that dealt with. I'm not going to want to spend time discussing whether or not the soup should come with bread sticks or what drink I'd like to have. Enough with the analogies, let's see your list. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 8, 2015 15:41:23 GMT
My forte is more business administration than game design, how would I create a design for it? I did mention it ions ago on 22cans but it was probably pruned from the alpha or early beta threads. Do I just kinda make it ala wish list style? Like what I would hope it would play like? I have no coding, game design or programming skills at all. I am more of the CFO type, ironic as that sounds. Please let me know how to go about laying that out so that it relate to your input criteria and I will do some research and put something together and then make a new thread for it. I'm not expecting a proper design doc or anything. All you are trying to do is communicate to me how this system would work in the game, do that in whatever way you feel is most effective. Try to visualise how it would look and work in game and all the steps involved. Imagine yourself using the system and take me through what you are doing. Sounds good, I will put something together.  |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 8, 2015 16:32:58 GMT
I'm not expecting a proper design doc or anything. All you are trying to do is communicate to me how this system would work in the game, do that in whatever way you feel is most effective. Try to visualise how it would look and work in game and all the steps involved. Imagine yourself using the system and take me through what you are doing. Sounds good, I will put something together. Try doing a web search for "game feature brief" or "game design feature write up" and you should find some good examples; the first one I saw was on gamasutra.com that looked useful. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 8, 2015 16:56:32 GMT
If your foundation is shaky, you don't keep tossing more things onto it. That's a recipe for disaster. We've been pointing out issues with the core design for a good year now, if you want a list, we could save a lot of time and just hash it out for you. You're never going to fix those core problems if you don't do it now. Be honest with yourself on this point. The project is on its last legs and this is a Hail Mary pass. There aren't too many people that will buy into the idea that this game will be any good without fixing them so you're risking this being a fool's errand. The community's been running on wishful thinking for far too long already. That bag of pixie dust is all used up. If I'm in a restaurant and I'm served a fly in my soup, I'm going to want that dealt with. I'm not going to want to spend time discussing whether or not the soup should come with bread sticks or what drink I'd like to have. Enough with the analogies, let's see your list. When I have enough information to actually make recommendations, I'll put some effort into it. Analogies are all I have to work with at this point. If you don't plan on changing the base mechanics, there's nothing I'm going to recommend because there's no point. Plain and simple, without at least the following things, we don't have a direction to look toward: 1. Resource gathering/usage needs to be refined. 2. Sticker chests need to be replaced with a real mechanic. 3. Game objectives need to be fleshed out. 4. Building/city/village mechanics need to be fleshed out 5. Hubworld/Online? Yes? No? 6. Timeline, is there actually a plan for progression beyond era names? You said this before: "I hope this at least highlights how much thought has to go into even modest design proposals, why game development takes such a long time and why most community feedback is of little practical use for a developer. But if your up for it here's your best chance to have a bigger impact on design." I agree with it. However, the first big reason that community feedback is dropped has to do with the community's lack of visibility to the underlying structure or design plan. We've been given the runaround every previous time we've tried to help with recommendations and the #1 reason has always been that we just don't see the big picture. When Hubworld came along, we'd get depth. When Commandment are implemented, we'd finally realize why things were what they were. On and on it goes and never are we given clarification as to why nothing gets implemented. We had to fight tooth and nail to get a road map and it was inaccurate within a week, if not already so when it was posted. Once again, we're being asked to generate a bunch of ideas while left in the dark about the game. I'm sick of shooting in the dark and want to know what we have to work with before I bother to put in effort like I'm being paid to do so. While I applaud you for trying to show the community how development works, don't expect us to act like employees. You aren't our manager and we aren't being paid to do this. Those of us that are still here are holdouts on a project that far more have given up on already. Some are here just to see how bad things get before it implodes. If this is how your company works with QA, I'm not surprised things are where they are. You can't system test with blinders on. |
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 8, 2015 18:11:06 GMT
Everything in your list can (and with the current state of the game, has to be) done in small incremental steps. This in not going to happen all at once. All except hubworld, that is on hold for now as it comes with it's own special set of headaches and quite frankly will take a truckload of work.
So I ask what is your point exactly? Do you think I have no plans to address these issues?
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 8, 2015 18:32:42 GMT
Everything in your list can (and with the current state of the game, has to be) done in small incremental steps. This in not going to happen all at once. All except hubworld, that is on hold for now as it comes with it's own special set of headaches and quite frankly will take a truckload of work. So I ask what is your point exactly? Do you think I have no plans to address these issues? I think the point is that we don't really know what those plans look like, nor do we really know what this game's supposed to look like when it's "finished." It hardly resembles what I think anyone here expected a revision of god games to look like (hence all the backlash), and with it having elaborated on whatever it was trying to be, it's hard to see what it might become at this point. The constant criticism used to be that it was a tech demo, I'm not sure what you'd call it now outside of maybe slightly less of a tech demo, which makes it hard to map out what's to be done with it. All we sorta know is that you're looking ahead on how to handle combat, what comes between now and that, aside from small adjustments to build up to larger changes affecting combat...We don't know anything about. We also don't really know why we can't know outside of concerns of things falling flat, so that also doesn't help much. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 8, 2015 18:35:02 GMT
Sounds good, I will put something together. Try doing a web search for "game feature brief" or "game design feature write up" and you should find some good examples; the first one I saw was on gamasutra.com that looked useful. Thanks, I took a look at some stuff. It's going to take me a bit, I need to do some chores and make Ba'al's dinner but I like the idea so I will work on it later tonight. Mine will of course be very very basic, but hopefully I can make it valid to some extent. |
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Post by Deth on Jan 8, 2015 19:05:09 GMT
I hope they succeed as well, but all the hope has been beat out of me. It just me and the dead horse laying over here on the side of the road right now. /9->
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 8, 2015 21:14:19 GMT
Everything in your list can (and with the current state of the game, has to be) done in small incremental steps. This in not going to happen all at once. All except hubworld, that is on hold for now as it comes with it's own special set of headaches and quite frankly will take a truckload of work. So I ask what is your point exactly? Do you think I have no plans to address these issues? See, I don't think you're actually listening/reading what I'm saying. Those things need to be figured out before we can get to any sort of feature expansion. We need to know what you guys are going to change and what you're going to keep in order to plan any sort of meaningful expansion. If you have no idea what those things are going to look like (once you get to them) then you're pretending that those things aren't going to significantly impact anything we come up with. That's a pitfall I'm not willing to ignore. You pointed out early on that even small changes can have big impacts and that's why you want us to be as explicit and concise in our recommendations. The problem is that you aren't taking your own advice about the things I listed out. Each one of those can/will have considerable impact on large portions of the game. Asking us to come up with new mechanics at this point has two major problems. First, we don't know how those mechanics will work so what we come with is based on current mechanics and might not make sense when those mechanics change. Second, it builds a situation of implementation and then revision once the mechanics are refactored. That's a measure once, cut twice approach. It's a short term gain but a long term nightmare. The smarter play is to work on getting those mechanics changed/implemented before tacking on more things that will only get in the way of making those changes. My only recommendation to improving combat is not to work on combat at this point. Combat's a new feature. It's barely implemented at this stage. Why focus on it when so much it's built on needs to be reworked. Also, we were promised a host of fixes and revisions since May. The pc focus was supposed to address the bulk of what I posted. Repeatedly, we were told to be patient and it would all be dealt with "this autumn". This project has repeatedly proven itself to be a disjointed mess of half-baked ideas slapped together. We keep asking for evidence to the contrary and are continually ignored. What you're doing sounds like more of the same pushing forward with new features when the base is still a nightmarish mess. This all feels like how 22Cans handled timer balancing: rather than address the issue head-on, it was dumped on the community's lap. Give us a clear idea of just what 22Cans has planned out for Godus. Is it single player? Is it multiplayer? Is it episodic with each world being a microcosm of the overall game? Does the timeline still make sense within this context? HOW DO WE WIN? I understand the concept of this "experiment" but now isn't the time to fiddle around with no direction. We need a plan and it's clear you've been handed a few scribbled notes and left out in the wind. I'm concerned you're just working off the old methodology. Hint: It doesn't work worth a damn. You sound like you've been part of the development process all along, but act like you've never heard about the problems I keep pointing out. The harsh truth is that the community isn't going to go easy on you for long. I'm just the first harsh voice of reality. I've lost the ability to put on a false face and smile while I watch the same mistakes being made. Being new doesn't reset the last 2 years of mismanagement for this project. I'm doing my best to remain as open-minded as possible but it's hard to do. You are the only remaining voice on this project. Everyone else has vanished into the woodwork. The official forum is a nightmarish wreck. Steam has been left in a wall of silence. This is it and it's just an "experiment". The community needs proof that things are going to get better. This project needs a major change in how it operates and that starts from the top down. What we have now is a mess and needs to be turned into something worth actually expanding on. Incorporating new features we come up with isn't going to solve that. We don't need to prove anything to you. It's the other way around. You want a list? Well get in line. We've been waiting for over a year. |
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Post by hardly on Jan 8, 2015 21:35:42 GMT
Earl, your points are valid, the best chance GODUS has to succeed is a fundamental review of the key elements. The reason it is a failure to date is because so many decisions were made that went against ergonomics, use ability, fun, challenging game play, engagement. Personally I'd rip all the elements out of the game and just get sculpting and landscape design working properly and then add stuff back in.
But I also understand that it's just no possible for Moo to start everywhere. He has major resource constraints (I don't think we've seen the whole story there) a very limited clout. He is trying to change the wheels on a car that is moving. It's shit for him as the mechanic and its shit for us as the passsengers but we just have to live with it.
Your comments basically amount to - Moo if you keep working like this you have a very low probability of success - and you are right. But he probably has a 0% chance of success the other way. Let him go his way and let's see where he gets to. It's fun (well for me it is) to talk about alternate features and even if ideas don't make it in having a two way conversation is a nice change.
We all no godus as it stands is toilet paper and is probably doomed now to remain toilet paper (thanks peter for two years of running it into the ground) so it's a lot easier to try a Hail Mary and trust Moo because we have nothing to lose.
Let's not piss off the only designer who has talked to us directly as adults and given us a framework to contribute in a constructive way.
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Post by hardly on Jan 8, 2015 21:38:14 GMT
Apologies for the typos and spelling mistakes above. English is my first language and I normally write good but I'm on my phone and that makes getting things perfect difficult.
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 8, 2015 21:43:37 GMT
Everything in your list can (and with the current state of the game, has to be) done in small incremental steps. This in not going to happen all at once. All except hubworld, that is on hold for now as it comes with it's own special set of headaches and quite frankly will take a truckload of work. So I ask what is your point exactly? Do you think I have no plans to address these issues? I think the point is that we don't really know what those plans look like, nor do we really know what this game's supposed to look like when it's "finished." It hardly resembles what I think anyone here expected a revision of god games to look like (hence all the backlash), and with it having elaborated on whatever it was trying to be, it's hard to see what it might become at this point. The constant criticism used to be that it was a tech demo, I'm not sure what you'd call it now outside of maybe slightly less of a tech demo, which makes it hard to map out what's to be done with it. All we sorta know is that you're looking ahead on how to handle combat, what comes between now and that, aside from small adjustments to build up to larger changes affecting combat...We don't know anything about. We also don't really know why we can't know outside of concerns of things falling flat, so that also doesn't help much. You know that's actually a very interesting question. What is Godus supposed to look like when it's finished? Simple answer is I don't know. Up to this point we have been following Peter's direction, now we are not. How Peter saw Godus concluding, I do not know. I have not been given a design doc detailing features and systems leading up to a completion point. As far as I know there never was one. This is actually far more common than you might think btw. If you've ever seen a well written design doc for a shipped title detailing the game from start to finish; it's most likely been written after the fact. Anyway the point is, I am now position where I have to move development forward and work out what the end goal is along the way. Maybe think about that yourselves. I don't have the luxury of spending weeks on planning so the practical solution is to attend to the issues that are apparent now. You know what they are, I know what they are (if you consider what the biggest complaints are, you should be able to infer what my to do list looks like) . That's my plan for the next few months. We're not going to be moving onto new ages or anything like that until I'm happy with the state of the current content and systems. And yeah that includes combat. I don't know how fast we will be able to deliver so I'm not going to give you dates. Sorry, but you will never be able to accuse me of promising something I can't deliver. I will let you know what is being worked on in the current sprint when we start in earnest on the 19th (baring any unexpected issues). My code support is tied up till then finishing of work for the Asia mobile release. |
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Post by Aynen on Jan 8, 2015 22:15:34 GMT
Are adding buffing spells within the realm of possibilities or do I need to rethink that part of my pitch? (are there any other parts that are outright wrong?)
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