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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 8, 2015 22:31:43 GMT
Your comments basically amount to - Moo if you keep working like this you have a very low probability of success - and you are right. But he probably has a 0% chance of success the other way. Let him go his way and let's see where he gets to. It's fun (well for me it is) to talk about alternate features and even if ideas don't make it in having a two way conversation is a nice change. We all no godus as it stands is toilet paper and is probably doomed now to remain toilet paper (thanks peter for two years of running it into the ground) so it's a lot easier to try a Hail Mary and trust Moo because we have nothing to lose. Let's not piss off the only designer who has talked to us directly as adults and given us a framework to contribute in a constructive way. I understand and that's exactly what I'm saying. This needs to change. (Analogy time) If I don't know what I want to eat or where any restaurants are, I'm probably never going to get dinner if I rush out to the car and start driving around. Moo doesn't have a plan going forward. He needs one. I'm pointing at the best places to start. " I have not been given a design doc detailing features and systems leading up to a completion point. As far as I know there never was one. This is actually far more common than you might think btw. If you've ever seen a well written design doc for a shipped title detailing the game from start to finish; it's most likely been written after the fact. " While it's true that most well-written design docs are post mortem, projects don't finish if they don't at least have a decent outline to base themselves off of. Godus is a project that lacks a 30 second pitch. Beyond being a "god game" for whatever definition people want to use right this second, there's nothing about it. We need to at least know what sort of resource generation system we can expect. The specifics may shift around as the game increases complexity but we need to know the basics. If it's a matter of bars filling up, fine, but we need to know if there are to be more bars to fill and what sorts of things might fill them. Sticker chests are a mess. They're a hack to push in-game transactions and don't fit. It makes more sense that the functionality they represent should be outputs from follower activities rather than sky trash littering our landscape. While we don't need to know which specific comodities might be used for specific stickers (or the cards unlocked by the stickers), changing this mechanic alters the entire base metaphor surrounding stickers. The list goes on. Each and every single thing I brought up needs to be addressed in some way (even if it's an outline) so we know what to expect and can make recommendations based upon those expectations. Additionally, these are the same issues that were supposed to be fixed with the pc sprint. Now, we're stuck with another "well it didn't happen." As for the "not piss of the only person talking to us", I've been wondering how long this would take to be said. This same thing happens every single time 22Cans changes direction. It happened when we got the sudden communication dump a few months ago. It happened when we got the settlement revamp. It happened when Fabs showed up, when George showed up, when Matthew showed up. For a month after the event, it became taboo to be critical to either "give them some time" or else it's a warning that they'll go home in a huff and not talk to us any more. Well, we're all adults here. I'm tired of backing off every two-three months because they bring up another shield to hide behind. I pretty much got bad-mouthed off the Steam forums for this BS and am fed up with all this walking on egg shells. This isn't a time for platitudes or starry-eyed fantasies. If Godus is to be fixed, it needs a plan for how that's to happen. What's there is crap and tacking more crap onto it isn't going to make things better. The game needs to be reevaluated before pushing forward. More than making new features, addressing the problems we've had since SEA release day should be first and foremost. Anyone that thinks the fundamental flaws aren't significant issues is burying their head in the sand. I'm not going to play along and waste time that only has the potential of exacerbating the issue. It sounds like Moo doesn't have the resources to actually fix these fundamental problems. Let's stop with the false hope and stop pretending that this game's fundamental issues are ever going to be fixed. At this point, it sounds like we're all little more than recruits digging foxholes and then filling them back in again. If the ability to make fixes to them is possible, it should happen sooner rather than later to avoid refactoring new content once the changes come in. Additionally, with how uncertain this project's future is, the budget for making fixes isn't going to get any better down the line. Don't blame me for not wanting to pick up a shovel and join in, again. I'm just not keeping my mouth shut about what I see... |
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Post by hardly on Jan 8, 2015 22:45:43 GMT
First of all I do believe that one of the drivers for peter letting moo continue on this is it gives him a fig leaf to hide behind in that he can say godus is still going when clearly it is close to stalling. I said this earlier.
Second, nobody is trying to censor people in terms of negative views about 22cans. My outlook of the situation is 22cans has been both cynical and incompetent which while amusing to watch has had the effect of wrecking an otherwise promising game. The tragedy is that we called most of their errors before they made them and then they went ahead and did them anyway. Moo even said hold on to your cynicism.
Having said all that nobody can work with a constant stream of poo being poured on their head. If we want anything to change we need to be constructive, especially in those threads designed to facilitate actionable feedback. It doesn't mean we shouldn't call godus what it is, or level accusations at 22cans.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 8, 2015 23:01:37 GMT
Off topic a bit: is anyone else feeling this tremendous flashback like I just had reading this thread?
Because I'm having an extreme sensation of 'deja vu-deja vu', wherein I am almost certain some of these things have been said, almost to the letter, at least twice now - this now being potentially the third (or forth) time. At least twice in this thread alone, the conversations seem almost verbatim in my memory to past convos.
Damn - I almost want to find the matching conversations, just to prove I'm not insane.
All that aside, I will try using the design brief format and hash out some of my thoughts. I have a ton of notes and rambling posts that I can scour through, and hopefully glean some useful info from them. I may have to go watch some "Let's Play" videos to see the combat, as I am far from experiencing that any time soon-us.
Although, as has been stated, this all seems extremely familiar; those few of us left have been burned in the past by the same repetitive rigamarole. That must be the reason for my sudden flash mentioned above. Either that, or I'm a Cylon.
As it was said in BSG; "This has all happened before, and all this will happen again"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 23:08:48 GMT
Off topic a bit: is anyone else feeling this tremendous flashback like I just had reading this thread? Because I'm having an extreme sensation of 'deja vu-deja vu', wherein I am almost certain some of these things have been said, almost to the letter, at least twice now - this now being potentially the third (or forth) time. At least twice in this thread alone, the conversations seem almost verbatim in my memory to past convos. Damn - I almost want to find the matching conversations, just to prove I'm not insane. All that aside, I will try using the design brief format and hash out some of my thoughts. I have a ton of notes and rambling posts that I can scour through, and hopefully glean some useful info from them. I may have to go watch some "Let's Play" videos to see the combat, as I am far from experiencing that any time soon-us. Although, as has been stated, this all seems extremely familiar; those few of us left have been burned in the past by the same repetitive rigamarole. That must be the reason for my sudden flash mentioned above. Either that, or I'm a Cylon. As it was said in BSG; "This has all happened before, and all this will happen again" Yep. All the while 22cans is still pretending that Godus PC isn't playing second fiddle to Godus mobile. I guess it's third fiddle if you consider The Trail 1st seat. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 8, 2015 23:14:13 GMT
First of all I do believe that one of the drivers for peter letting moo continue on this is it gives him a fig leaf to hide behind in that he can say godus is still going when clearly it is close to stalling. I said this earlier. Second, nobody is trying to censor people in terms of negative views about 22cans. My outlook of the situation is 22cans has been both cynical and incompetent which while amusing to watch has had the effect of wrecking an otherwise promising game. The tragedy is that we called most of their errors before they made them and then they went ahead and did them anyway. Moo even said hold on to your cynicism. Having said all that nobody can work with a constant stream of poo being poured on their head. If we want anything to change we need to be constructive, especially in those threads designed to facilitate actionable feedback. It doesn't mean we shouldn't call godus what it is, or level accusations at 22cans. Yes, I don't make light of my beliefs in other threads either, but I see nothing wrong with honoring any requests from 22cans designers to obtain non clouded specific input on potential productive advancement on the PC sprint for their designated threads. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 8, 2015 23:18:47 GMT
First of all I do believe that one of the drivers for peter letting moo continue on this is it gives him a fig leaf to hide behind in that he can say godus is still going when clearly it is close to stalling. I said this earlier. Second, nobody is trying to censor people in terms of negative views about 22cans. My outlook of the situation is 22cans has been both cynical and incompetent which while amusing to watch has had the effect of wrecking an otherwise promising game. The tragedy is that we called most of their errors before they made them and then they went ahead and did them anyway. Moo even said hold on to your cynicism. Having said all that nobody can work with a constant stream of poo being poured on their head. If we want anything to change we need to be constructive, especially in those threads designed to facilitate actionable feedback. It doesn't mean we shouldn't call godus what it is, or level accusations at 22cans. Not addressing the fundamental flaws in the base mechanics is repeating the same mistakes we've seen over and over again. The most constructive thing I can say is to work on the foundation rather than tack on new features. When we don't have a plan or direction, it's better to stop and figure one out before plodding forward aimlessly. It may not be the feedback Moo was asking for, but it's pretty damn constructive. What is the biggest negative to fixing the fundamentals of this game? Can someone honestly tell me why this is a bad idea? Every ounce of my experience says it's the right move. Every single thing that's happened since SEA release has been pushing forward new features despite a shaky foundation. This project is overloaded with tangents, whether it's tacking on additional features, platforms, or public appearances. What 22Cans focuses on next is an important indicator as to where this project is going. There is no good end to blindly pushing forward. There's at least a chance if Godus is made a pc game and given a plan before trying to tack more features on. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 8, 2015 23:19:29 GMT
An easy fix is to limit the range in which combat powers can be used, as per the old combat system where range of action expanding out from built houses. Perhaps the best way to do this is to reverse the old system, and have you able to use powers anywhere except near enemy buildings. I think you're thinking of Black & White, there was never anything like this in Godus. Expanding area of influence. Starts at 4:22 |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 8, 2015 23:23:13 GMT
A reminder to all posters.... One pitch post for each member until we reach the discussion point, we are not at discussion point until FuriousMoo announces it. All multiple posts on these threads will be merged and all OT posts will be moved. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 8, 2015 23:27:16 GMT
My post was in reply to moo statement, I though we could discuss below sorry, how do I reply to him to point out his error?
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 8, 2015 23:31:59 GMT
My post was in reply to moo statement, I though we could discuss below sorry, how do I reply to him to point out his error? No worries. At this point, my suggestion is to quote him on here. This forum has limited functionality within threads for posts. On this thread he can see your response and yet he still has his requested one pitch format on his DEV thread. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 8, 2015 23:35:37 GMT
My post was in reply to moo statement, I though we could discuss below sorry, how do I reply to him to point out his error? No worries. At this point, my suggestion is to quote him on here. This forum has limited functionality within threads for posts. On this thread he can see your response and yet he still has his requested one pitch format on his DEV thread. Done thanks. |
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Post by morsealworth on Jan 8, 2015 23:36:36 GMT
Off topic a bit: is anyone else feeling this tremendous flashback like I just had reading this thread? Because I'm having an extreme sensation of 'deja vu-deja vu', wherein I am almost certain some of these things have been said, almost to the letter, at least twice now - this now being potentially the third (or forth) time. At least twice in this thread alone, the conversations seem almost verbatim in my memory to past convos. I remember absolutely the same shit since first day of beta and can bet my start projector it was the same since alpha. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 8, 2015 23:44:15 GMT
Forgive me for asking, I don't know if this has been addressed. Are we talking about player versus player battles here or player versus AI battles? Or player versus player versus AI? Or 8 players battling each other? Or are we talking limited minor skirmishes of player versus in-game tribes like the Astari and such? Also, question for FuriousMoo, have you ever played Populous the Beginning? If not, please give it a try soon before you start drawing up or finalizing your combat design plans. Just like to say populous the beginning is a awesome game, wasn't that made after Peter left bullfrog? |
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Post by hardly on Jan 8, 2015 23:49:48 GMT
How old is populous in the beginning and does it play natively in windows or do you need a dos box?
I played the old populous and power monger (and loads of other games) but I think I assumed populous in the beginning was a retread.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 8, 2015 23:51:19 GMT
Forgive me for asking, I don't know if this has been addressed. Are we talking about player versus player battles here or player versus AI battles? Or player versus player versus AI? Or 8 players battling each other? Or are we talking limited minor skirmishes of player versus in-game tribes like the Astari and such? Also, question for FuriousMoo, have you ever played Populous the Beginning? If not, please give it a try soon before you start drawing up or finalizing your combat design plans. Just like to say populous the beginning is a awesome game, wasn't that made after Peter left bullfrog? It's been a loooong time since I played that game. My strongest memory of it is "Shoka!" Time to dig through my old disk boxes... |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 8, 2015 23:51:37 GMT
How old is populous in the beginning and does it play natively in windows or do you need a dos box? I played the old populous and power monger (and loads of other games) but I think I assumed populous in the beginning was a retread. I had it running in windows not so long ago, don't remember what I did to get it running though  |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jan 8, 2015 23:53:22 GMT
Forgive me for asking, I don't know if this has been addressed. Are we talking about player versus player battles here or player versus AI battles? Or player versus player versus AI? Or 8 players battling each other? Or are we talking limited minor skirmishes of player versus in-game tribes like the Astari and such? Also, question for FuriousMoo, have you ever played Populous the Beginning? If not, please give it a try soon before you start drawing up or finalizing your combat design plans. Just like to say populous the beginning is a awesome game, wasn't that made after Peter left bullfrog? It could very well have been. It's much better than the original 2 Populous games too. But of course there were years of technology development between their relative dates of publishing. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 8, 2015 23:53:32 GMT
How old is populous in the beginning and does it play natively in windows or do you need a dos box? I played the old populous and power monger (and loads of other games) but I think I assumed populous in the beginning was a retread. Now that is worth the money! Unlike certain other on sale games I don't care to mention  |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jan 8, 2015 23:55:03 GMT
How old is populous in the beginning and does it play natively in windows or do you need a dos box? I played the old populous and power monger (and loads of other games) but I think I assumed populous in the beginning was a retread. You don't need a dos box. I think it's from around 1998. What do you mean by retread? |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jan 8, 2015 23:57:18 GMT
Just like to say populous the beginning is a awesome game, wasn't that made after Peter left bullfrog? It's been a loooong time since I played that game. My strongest memory of it is "Shoka!" Time to dig through my old disk boxes... Nagayeeen! |
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