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Post by hardly on Jan 9, 2015 0:00:58 GMT
How old is populous in the beginning and does it play natively in windows or do you need a dos box? I played the old populous and power monger (and loads of other games) but I think I assumed populous in the beginning was a retread. You don't need a dos box. I think it's from around 1998. What do you mean by retread? Where they take an old but great game, add some gimmicky features that make it worse and then make out it's a new game that moves the genre forward. Simcity societies might be a good example. I know there are others but they don't spring to mind. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 9, 2015 0:23:36 GMT
You don't need a dos box. I think it's from around 1998. What do you mean by retread? Where they take an old but great game, add some gimmicky features that make it worse and then make out it's a new game that moves the genre forward. Simcity societies might be a good example. I know there are others but they don't spring to mind. It is not one of those! But also its not really a god game, you play as the shaman, but it's still bloody good. |
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 9, 2015 0:35:49 GMT
I think you're thinking of Black & White, there was never anything like this in Godus. Expanding area of influence. Starts at 4:22 Hmm I'll have to double check, this was before my time at 22cans, but I reckon this is all trickery done via lua scripts. I know for a fact the enemy 'AI' was (if you played enough times you would notice it did the exactly the same thing every time). From observation it look like there are two preset areas of influence that the script increases the radius off based on the total population count. I has nothing to do with where the houses are placed. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 9, 2015 4:53:26 GMT
Just a suggestion for some posters. If I have merged your multiple posts on the DEV thread, plus feel free to edit to make them more clean or readable for your pitch. Again, I remind you all, FuriousMoo wants ONE post per member until he announces the thread is open for discussion. You can use this thread, or make a new if you want to bring up additional points of discussion but all multiple posts, with the exception of 22cans staff and the forum admins, will be merged on the DEV thread. You can edit your existing pitch post and he will have access to any additional input in this requested format so that he does not have to spend hours a day on board and is able to proceed with progressing Godus. |
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Post by rubgish on Jan 9, 2015 16:57:36 GMT
An easy fix is to limit the range in which combat powers can be used, as per the old combat system where range of action expanding out from built houses. Perhaps the best way to do this is to reverse the old system, and have you able to use powers anywhere except near enemy buildings. I think you're thinking of Black & White, there was never anything like this in Godus. The sequence you pointed out was scripted in lua to have influence areas enlarge from two predefined points based on total population, not house positions. Noting, but dirty trickery I tell you. Also our system right now does not support area of influence shrinking. Once it's uncovered it says uncovered for good. I'm not saying making some changes to the way area of influence works is out of the question (it would be a fairly small feature), but I'm not convinced it is a good solution. In Black & White I would find myself building long 'roads' made of small houses up to the enemy base so I could lob fireballs and rocks at them. It was a very inelegant system and one I would like to avoid. Also it doesn't solve the problem where as long as you see the enemy coming you could still wipe out massive armies with little effort as soon as they reached your borders. I'm reluctant to render meteor impotent, it makes a satisfyingly big hole especially when fully upgraded. It's fun blowing up mountains and I don't want to see that gone. I could give enemy followers an anti meteor radius similar to how the astari village is protected (but also have it only do some damage and nerf it's knock back effect and set on fire effect), it's not ideal, but am struggling for a better option. My current idea for finger of god is to give it a lengthy cool down after it has been used to directly kill an enemy follower. That way it would still have use in combat and you could still use it to destroy your own stuff without restriction. And with clever use of the tree power combined with finger of god you could set fire traps. Welp, I don't know that i'm surprised that it was a really half-arsed method of doing it. It's sad, because it'd be a very useful feature to have. I personally don't think the black & white influence was so bad, primarily because you had the ability to act outside your influence zone by throwing objects (I think for me, throwing fireballs/rocks at long range was one of the most enjoyable parts of the game). I don't think that's currently possible in Godus & imagine it never will be, which makes influence areas less favourable. I do think some level of protection for enemy troops is going to be the only real viable option, otherwise you are going to have to drastically nerf the players power at all other points of the game. Do you know if your future plans have god powers being used by enemies as well as players? |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 9, 2015 18:14:20 GMT
I think you're thinking of Black & White, there was never anything like this in Godus. The sequence you pointed out was scripted in lua to have influence areas enlarge from two predefined points based on total population, not house positions. Noting, but dirty trickery I tell you. Also our system right now does not support area of influence shrinking. Once it's uncovered it says uncovered for good. I'm not saying making some changes to the way area of influence works is out of the question (it would be a fairly small feature), but I'm not convinced it is a good solution. In Black & White I would find myself building long 'roads' made of small houses up to the enemy base so I could lob fireballs and rocks at them. It was a very inelegant system and one I would like to avoid. Also it doesn't solve the problem where as long as you see the enemy coming you could still wipe out massive armies with little effort as soon as they reached your borders. I'm reluctant to render meteor impotent, it makes a satisfyingly big hole especially when fully upgraded. It's fun blowing up mountains and I don't want to see that gone. I could give enemy followers an anti meteor radius similar to how the astari village is protected (but also have it only do some damage and nerf it's knock back effect and set on fire effect), it's not ideal, but am struggling for a better option. My current idea for finger of god is to give it a lengthy cool down after it has been used to directly kill an enemy follower. That way it would still have use in combat and you could still use it to destroy your own stuff without restriction. And with clever use of the tree power combined with finger of god you could set fire traps. . I agree the area of influence per abode is probably to much. But have you considered upgradable user placed beacons or similar (at a high cost) that would add strategy to positioning them? Also restricting expansion by blighting war areas were power were use on enemies? These are in my war thread but not sure from these comments if we start discussion yet. |
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 9, 2015 18:28:50 GMT
I thought we'd start proper discussions on monday, give time for those participating to have a proper think over the weekend. Placable beacons could certainly be a thing, but area of influence is only tangentially related to the current topic.
As for god powers being used against the player by AI, you can assume that they won't be outside of specifically scripted scenarios.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 9, 2015 20:01:25 GMT
As for god powers being used against the player by AI, you can assume that they won't be outside of specifically scripted scenarios. Hmm? =O |
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Post by morsealworth on Jan 9, 2015 21:11:17 GMT
I think the influence should be around altar (Mostly placed in the temples) with the radius proportional to people worshipping at it (not at the time, but you understand what I mean). The altars also must have a maximum capacity since more people can't fit in a temple.
I also mentioned a campaign altar already.
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 9, 2015 21:20:32 GMT
As for god powers being used against the player by AI, you can assume that they won't be outside of specifically scripted scenarios. Hmm? =O I wouldn't read too much into that, just a bunch of if, maybe's and wouldn't it be nice ifs floating around in my head right now. We won't be getting any proper enemy AI time soon so an interim measure will be to add more interesting an complex scripts to control the astari raids and that could potentially include use of god powers. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 9, 2015 22:30:41 GMT
I think the influence should be around altar (Mostly placed in the temples) with the radius proportional to people worshipping at it (not at the time, but you understand what I mean). The altars also must have a maximum capacity since more people can't fit in a temple. I also mentioned a campaign altar already. That's an interesting concept. |
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Post by Aynen on Jan 9, 2015 22:36:31 GMT
FuriousMoo I actually think your interim measure would make for a better final product, considering that an AI that remains fun to play against over a good amount of time is no small feat, which many studios have failed to deliver on in spite of having started developing them earlier in the process. Would you consider developing script-based hurdles further rather than opting to develop an interesting and challenging AI?
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Post by morsealworth on Jan 9, 2015 23:09:28 GMT
I think the influence should be around altar (Mostly placed in the temples) with the radius proportional to people worshipping at it (not at the time, but you understand what I mean). The altars also must have a maximum capacity since more people can't fit in a temple. I also mentioned a campaign altar already. You could also start with household altars and funally unite them after discovering a technology. Think Godus 1.3's Settlements, but automatical. |
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 9, 2015 23:48:57 GMT
FuriousMoo I actually think your interim measure would make for a better final product, considering that an AI that remains fun to play against over a good amount of time is no small feat, which many studios have failed to deliver on in spite of having started developing them earlier in the process. Would you consider developing script-based hurdles further rather than opting to develop an interesting and challenging AI? We'll see how much we can do with scripts, they tend to become very unreliable and not work very well once you reach a certain point of complexity though. And no we're never going to have a 'battle AI', but we could do with some more behaviors when it comes to combat. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 10, 2015 2:54:39 GMT
FuriousMoo I actually think your interim measure would make for a better final product, considering that an AI that remains fun to play against over a good amount of time is no small feat, which many studios have failed to deliver on in spite of having started developing them earlier in the process. Would you consider developing script-based hurdles further rather than opting to develop an interesting and challenging AI? We'll see how much we can do with scripts, they tend to become very unreliable and not work very well once you reach a certain point of complexity though. And no we're never going to have a 'battle AI', but we could do with some more behaviors when it comes to combat.  This game grows ever more perplexing to me. Would that suggest that there's really not all that much peace AI either? Just some clever little scripts, with minimal pathfinding AI (explaining A LOT)? |
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Post by hardly on Jan 10, 2015 4:18:26 GMT
FuriousMoo I actually think your interim measure would make for a better final product, considering that an AI that remains fun to play against over a good amount of time is no small feat, which many studios have failed to deliver on in spite of having started developing them earlier in the process. Would you consider developing script-based hurdles further rather than opting to develop an interesting and challenging AI? After almost 30 years of PC game, AI remains my great disappointment. Watching a AI blunder it's way through game mechanics all the while blatantly cheating to keep up with human players is depressing. As you say Aynen, far bigger studios with bigger budgets have failed in this area. There are ways for games to be challenging without opponent Civs and without combat. For me this steers the game more towards a sandbox economic (+religious) where the challenge is internal rather than external. |
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Post by morsealworth on Jan 10, 2015 5:40:30 GMT
Guys? Do you even God game? God game is a type of Artificial Life simulation. Which means that AI is EVERYTHING.
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 10, 2015 5:43:44 GMT
What I meant to say was "we're never going to have a 'battle AI' like you would expect to see in a combat rts game". There is AI or your followers would never do anything, it determines their behaviors. Godus isn't a combat focused game so combat AI will never be nearly as much of a priority or receive as much attention as say Starcraft. There are a lot of AI behaviors at work already, but there's more we can do to improve the illusion of autonomy and intelligence. Make no mistake AI is always just a bunch of smoke and mirrors to give the appearance there is a semblance of being some smarts there. It's not about the power of the computer, for a long time now that's been a non issue, it's a case of a computer being fundamentally stupid and unable to make judgements, decisions and strategies. 'Good' AI is just a computer cheating in a way that's not obvious to the player.
Also the pathfinding is far from minimal, it's pretty damn complex. There are two problems which can make it appear so however. Firstly it can be very easy for the player to miss a blockage along the path they wish their followers to take. We saw this time and time again during focus tests on small simple voyage maps, on the homeworld this issue is magnified immensely. This is not entirely down to player error either, in some positions there can appear to be step between layers when there actually isn't due to the way the layers are drawn. Then there is the problem of range. The layered 3d terrain of Godus makes for a hellishly complicated navigation map, a full explanation goes beyond my technical understanding and would need a coder to explain. In very simple terms pathfinding across the Godus terrain takes a lot of processing power and we have to impose limits on distance a path can be plotted or your pc would grind to a halt. It's been a big technical hurdle for some time now.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 10, 2015 6:02:09 GMT
What I meant to say was "we're never going to have a 'battle AI' like you would expect to see in a combat rts game". There is AI or your followers would never do anything, it determines their behaviors. Godus isn't a combat focused game so combat AI will never be nearly as much of a priority or receive as much attention as say Starcraft. There are a lot of AI behaviors at work already, but there's more we can do to improve the illusion of autonomy and intelligence. Make no mistake AI is always just a bunch of smoke and mirrors to give the appearance there is a semblance of being some smarts there. It's not about the power of the computer, for a long time now that's been a non issue, it's a case of a computer being fundamentally stupid and unable to make judgements, decisions and strategies. 'Good' AI is just a computer cheating in a way that's not obvious to the player. Also the pathfinding is far from minimal, it's pretty damn complex. There are two problems which can make it appear so however. Firstly it can be very easy for the player to miss a blockage along the path they wish their followers to take. We saw this time and time again during focus tests on small simple voyage maps, on the homeworld this issue is magnified immensely. This is not entirely down to player error either, in some positions there can appear to be step between layers when there actually isn't due to the way the layers are drawn. Then there is the problem of range. The layered 3d terrain of Godus makes for a hellishly complicated navigation map, a full explanation goes beyond my technical understanding and would need a coder to explain. In very simple terms pathfinding across the Godus terrain takes a lot of processing power and we have to impose limits on distance a path can be plotted or your pc would grind to a halt. It's been a big technical hurdle for some time now. Aah, okay, that makes a little more sense. The way you put it was definitely interesting without thinking up the context you added. I was mostly being a little tongue in cheek about the pathfinding, since it's been such a lingering issue, and we've (or at least I've) kind of joked about the follower behaviors appearing to be looping scripts/animations more than any sophisticated AI stuff. Which I guess maybe is kinda the point, but it always sounded like the smoke and mirrors were intended to work a little better than they ever ended up working (...here's to marketing BS?). |
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Post by morsealworth on Jan 10, 2015 6:32:29 GMT
It's not about the power of the computer, for a long time now that's been a non issue, it's a case of a computer being fundamentally stupid and unable to make judgements, decisions and strategies. There are two problems which can make it appear so however. Firstly it can be very easy for the player to miss a blockage along the path they wish their followers to take. We saw this time and time again during focus tests on small simple voyage maps, on the homeworld this issue is magnified immensely. This is not entirely down to player error either, in some positions there can appear to be step between layers when there actually isn't due to the way the layers are drawn. Then there is the problem of range. The layered 3d terrain of Godus makes for a hellishly complicated navigation map, a full explanation goes beyond my technical understanding and would need a coder to explain. In very simple terms pathfinding across the Godus terrain takes a lot of processing power and we have to impose limits on distance a path can be plotted or your pc would grind to a halt. It's been a big technical hurdle for some time now. 1. Well, the fact that we haven't taught our abaci to think is true and obvious. You can't make a rock choose whether to fall down on the Earth. I'm talking about the scripted behaviour based on input from player, their stats and terrain around. You know, the same they do in Banished, Evil Genius or even Spacebase DF-9. 2. Well, you can try to use the indicators like in From Dust. Those were very helpful concerning sculpting the way. |
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This game grows ever more perplexing to me. Would that suggest that there's really not all that much peace AI either? Just some clever little scripts, with minimal pathfinding AI (explaining A LOT)? 
