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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 10, 2015 7:03:54 GMT
What I meant to say was "we're never going to have a 'battle AI' like you would expect to see in a combat rts game". There is AI or your followers would never do anything, it determines their behaviors. Godus isn't a combat focused game so combat AI will never be nearly as much of a priority or receive as much attention as say Starcraft. There are a lot of AI behaviors at work already, but there's more we can do to improve the illusion of autonomy and intelligence. Make no mistake AI is always just a bunch of smoke and mirrors to give the appearance there is a semblance of being some smarts there. It's not about the power of the computer, for a long time now that's been a non issue, it's a case of a computer being fundamentally stupid and unable to make judgements, decisions and strategies. 'Good' AI is just a computer cheating in a way that's not obvious to the player. Also the pathfinding is far from minimal, it's pretty damn complex. There are two problems which can make it appear so however. Firstly it can be very easy for the player to miss a blockage along the path they wish their followers to take. We saw this time and time again during focus tests on small simple voyage maps, on the homeworld this issue is magnified immensely. This is not entirely down to player error either, in some positions there can appear to be step between layers when there actually isn't due to the way the layers are drawn. Then there is the problem of range. The layered 3d terrain of Godus makes for a hellishly complicated navigation map, a full explanation goes beyond my technical understanding and would need a coder to explain. In very simple terms pathfinding across the Godus terrain takes a lot of processing power and we have to impose limits on distance a path can be plotted or your pc would grind to a halt. It's been a big technical hurdle for some time now. I'm a bit confused about all of this. Why is it so imperative we expand the combat system when it's not the focus of this game and the AI won't be anything like an rts? Do you plan on implementing pvp so we actually have something worth all the effort into combat? Are we going to be battling scripted events? How does 22Cans see combat fitting into the overall Godus experience? At this point my vision of Godus is the following: Godus is a zen-like experience where we sacrifice followers to alleviate boredom. We sculpt the land, but aren't supposed to do too much. There is combat, but it's not the focus. Our powers are available, but too expensive to really use often. We have structures we can place, but only a specific few. We progress down a timeline but it leads nowhere. It's a persistent game, but also consists of episodic stages. There's no losing but there's also no winning. As an insider, what's the 22Cans vision of Godus on the pc? |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 10, 2015 20:15:21 GMT
I think the point is that we don't really know what those plans look like, nor do we really know what this game's supposed to look like when it's "finished." It hardly resembles what I think anyone here expected a revision of god games to look like (hence all the backlash), and with it having elaborated on whatever it was trying to be, it's hard to see what it might become at this point. The constant criticism used to be that it was a tech demo, I'm not sure what you'd call it now outside of maybe slightly less of a tech demo, which makes it hard to map out what's to be done with it. All we sorta know is that you're looking ahead on how to handle combat, what comes between now and that, aside from small adjustments to build up to larger changes affecting combat...We don't know anything about. We also don't really know why we can't know outside of concerns of things falling flat, so that also doesn't help much. You know that's actually a very interesting question. What is Godus supposed to look like when it's finished? Simple answer is I don't know. Up to this point we have been following Peter's direction, now we are not. How Peter saw Godus concluding, I do not know. I have not been given a design doc detailing features and systems leading up to a completion point. As far as I know there never was one. This is actually far more common than you might think btw. If you've ever seen a well written design doc for a shipped title detailing the game from start to finish; it's most likely been written after the fact. Anyway the point is, I am now position where I have to move development forward and work out what the end goal is along the way. Maybe think about that yourselves. I don't have the luxury of spending weeks on planning so the practical solution is to attend to the issues that are apparent now. You know what they are, I know what they are (if you consider what the biggest complaints are, you should be able to infer what my to do list looks like) . That's my plan for the next few months. We're not going to be moving onto new ages or anything like that until I'm happy with the state of the current content and systems. And yeah that includes combat. I don't know how fast we will be able to deliver so I'm not going to give you dates. Sorry, but you will never be able to accuse me of promising something I can't deliver. I will let you know what is being worked on in the current sprint when we start in earnest on the 19th (baring any unexpected issues). My code support is tied up till then finishing of work for the Asia mobile release. Well, we do have this earlparvisjam, so...That kind of helps explain the state of things. |
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Post by Aynen on Jan 10, 2015 22:10:40 GMT
earlparvisjamFrom my understanding of the game (which may be totally off) it was always designed as a game where you do 'a bit of this and a bit of that' on a daily basis. And without all the intended parts of the game fully implemented that couldn't happen. Combat was a part of this, and so was hubworld. If that perception was correct, then combat doesn't play the role of being a long-lasting task to overcome an obstacle, but rather it plays the role of presenting you with a few tasks you can do on a daily basis that are added to all the other tasks you can do, to achieve that 'a little bit of this and that' effect. So in essence, it means you log in, see an incoming raiding party, and you do 2 or 3 actions to deal with them that relate to combat, then move on to the other things that need your attention while your combat related orders play out over the next few hours. No rts-like AI required. Of course, now we're a bit further down the line, and it's become apparent that this design is often seen as not compatible with what the PC gamer was expecting.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 10, 2015 22:18:59 GMT
You know that's actually a very interesting question. What is Godus supposed to look like when it's finished? Simple answer is I don't know. Up to this point we have been following Peter's direction, now we are not. How Peter saw Godus concluding, I do not know. I have not been given a design doc detailing features and systems leading up to a completion point. As far as I know there never was one. This is actually far more common than you might think btw. If you've ever seen a well written design doc for a shipped title detailing the game from start to finish; it's most likely been written after the fact. Anyway the point is, I am now position where I have to move development forward and work out what the end goal is along the way. Maybe think about that yourselves. I don't have the luxury of spending weeks on planning so the practical solution is to attend to the issues that are apparent now. You know what they are, I know what they are (if you consider what the biggest complaints are, you should be able to infer what my to do list looks like) . That's my plan for the next few months. We're not going to be moving onto new ages or anything like that until I'm happy with the state of the current content and systems. And yeah that includes combat. I don't know how fast we will be able to deliver so I'm not going to give you dates. Sorry, but you will never be able to accuse me of promising something I can't deliver. I will let you know what is being worked on in the current sprint when we start in earnest on the 19th (baring any unexpected issues). My code support is tied up till then finishing of work for the Asia mobile release. Well, we do have this earlparvisjam, so...That kind of helps explain the state of things. What's frustrating me is that I don't actually think Moo knows what the biggest complaints are. While combat and a new god powers are on the list of issues with this game, they hover, at best, as third or fourth priority below the fundamental issues we have with Godus. So, why focus on them so intently. It's especially frustrating when the combat system is the newest feature added to this game. It's not even on the list of longstanding problems. From all accounts, what we're going to be getting with combat is (if we're lucky) a rudimentary facsimile of an rts. It's a secondary feature since Godus "isn't a combat focused game" so why is it priority #1 at this stage? This is the very reason I keep focusing on why we need this stuff hammered out before adding to the pile of features in this project. I don't want the doctor to perform plastic surgery when my lungs are collapsing. Push forward and it'll all sort itself out is how we got where we are. Without a destination, there is no forward or backward, only motion. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 10, 2015 22:34:35 GMT
earlparvisjamFrom my understanding of the game (which may be totally off) it was always designed as a game where you do 'a bit of this and a bit of that' on a daily basis. And without all the intended parts of the game fully implemented that couldn't happen. Combat was a part of this, and so was hubworld. If that perception was correct, then combat doesn't play the role of being a long-lasting task to overcome an obstacle, but rather it plays the role of presenting you with a few tasks you can do on a daily basis that are added to all the other tasks you can do, to achieve that 'a little bit of this and that' effect. So in essence, it means you log in, see an incoming raiding party, and you do 2 or 3 actions to deal with them that relate to combat, then move on to the other things that need your attention while your combat related orders play out over the next few hours. No rts-like AI required. Of course, now we're a bit further down the line, and it's become apparent that this design is often seen as not compatible with what the PC gamer was expecting. Where do you get this stuff? Nowhere in the Kickstarter was the term "casual" (or anything even close to that) uttered. The only screenshots on the Kickstarter page are of a (still nonexistent) tornado power tearing up the countryside. The video is of multiplayer combat. Here, I'll even pull some Kickstarter quote goodness: "If you choose to spread out and conquer more lands however, you will confront other gods with their own civilizations of followers. There is only room for one god, so prepare to guide your worshippers into battle by altering the world around them with your god powers, then watch your followers reign victorious across the world." "Half a living sandbox world, and half a strategy game, players can choose to explore the power of the almighty however they wish. Whether it’s granting the power of life and blossoming the world around your believers, or using godly powers to wreak havoc via natural disasters to defeat the armies of other gods, prepare for the Ultimate God Game: Single Player, Multiplayer, Cross-Platform gameplay, sandbox worlds, strategic battles, living populations, and the power to create, change, and destroy the very structure of the world." "As you flourish and build your own cult, you’ll engage in pitched battles with other gods and their cults. It’s a multiplayer power-struggle the way it should be." |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 10, 2015 23:15:28 GMT
Well, we do have this earlparvisjam, so...That kind of helps explain the state of things. What's frustrating me is that I don't actually think Moo knows what the biggest complaints are. While combat and a new god powers are on the list of issues with this game, they hover, at best, as third or fourth priority below the fundamental issues we have with Godus. So, why focus on them so intently. It's especially frustrating when the combat system is the newest feature added to this game. It's not even on the list of longstanding problems. From all accounts, what we're going to be getting with combat is (if we're lucky) a rudimentary facsimile of an rts. It's a secondary feature since Godus "isn't a combat focused game" so why is it priority #1 at this stage? This is the very reason I keep focusing on why we need this stuff hammered out before adding to the pile of features in this project. I don't want the doctor to perform plastic surgery when my lungs are collapsing. Push forward and it'll all sort itself out is how we got where we are. Without a destination, there is no forward or backward, only motion. That's why I tried to rephrase your last point to maybe get that a little more across to FuriousMoo, as all the analogies and the like weren't really doing much. Someone at 22cans should have been thinking about what Godus was supposed to eventually look like, and that should have been Peter/Jack/Jamie, as well as FuriousMoo somewhere in the mix (I would think), but none of them seem to have bothered for some incomprehensible reason. I don't understand that approach to creative work, at all, personally. I get not knowing the details, but I expect there to be broad outlines that are gradually filled out and trimmed back as needed, including an idea of the final product...Which doesn't seem to have been the case here despite all the "remain dedicated to the vision" stuff Molyneux kept spouting. |
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Post by Aynen on Jan 10, 2015 23:16:06 GMT
I'm basing my theory on the design choices Peter has made during the course of development so far, not on what was said in the Kickstarter. I never really gave a you-know-what about exactly what was said on Kickstarter. I filter that stuff out as irrelevant commercial dribble. Like advertisement-blindness.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 23:16:06 GMT
earlparvisjamFrom my understanding of the game (which may be totally off) it was always designed as a game where you do 'a bit of this and a bit of that' on a daily basis. And without all the intended parts of the game fully implemented that couldn't happen. Combat was a part of this, and so was hubworld. If that perception was correct, then combat doesn't play the role of being a long-lasting task to overcome an obstacle, but rather it plays the role of presenting you with a few tasks you can do on a daily basis that are added to all the other tasks you can do, to achieve that 'a little bit of this and that' effect. So in essence, it means you log in, see an incoming raiding party, and you do 2 or 3 actions to deal with them that relate to combat, then move on to the other things that need your attention while your combat related orders play out over the next few hours. No rts-like AI required. Of course, now we're a bit further down the line, and it's become apparent that this design is often seen as not compatible with what the PC gamer was expecting. Where do you get this stuff? Nowhere in the Kickstarter was the term "casual" (or anything even close to that) uttered. The only screenshots on the Kickstarter page are of a (still nonexistent) tornado power tearing up the countryside. The video is of multiplayer combat. Here, I'll even pull some Kickstarter quote goodness: "If you choose to spread out and conquer more lands however, you will confront other gods with their own civilizations of followers. There is only room for one god, so prepare to guide your worshippers into battle by altering the world around them with your god powers, then watch your followers reign victorious across the world." "Half a living sandbox world, and half a strategy game, players can choose to explore the power of the almighty however they wish. Whether it’s granting the power of life and blossoming the world around your believers, or using godly powers to wreak havoc via natural disasters to defeat the armies of other gods, prepare for the Ultimate God Game: Single Player, Multiplayer, Cross-Platform gameplay, sandbox worlds, strategic battles, living populations, and the power to create, change, and destroy the very structure of the world." "As you flourish and build your own cult, you’ll engage in pitched battles with other gods and their cults. It’s a multiplayer power-struggle the way it should be." Pssssh, words don't mean things!  |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 10, 2015 23:24:08 GMT
Well, we do have this earlparvisjam, so...That kind of helps explain the state of things. What's frustrating me is that I don't actually think Moo knows what the biggest complaints are. While combat and a new god powers are on the list of issues with this game, they hover, at best, as third or fourth priority below the fundamental issues we have with Godus. So, why focus on them so intently. It's especially frustrating when the combat system is the newest feature added to this game. It's not even on the list of longstanding problems. From all accounts, what we're going to be getting with combat is (if we're lucky) a rudimentary facsimile of an rts. It's a secondary feature since Godus "isn't a combat focused game" so why is it priority #1 at this stage? This is the very reason I keep focusing on why we need this stuff hammered out before adding to the pile of features in this project. I don't want the doctor to perform plastic surgery when my lungs are collapsing. Push forward and it'll all sort itself out is how we got where we are. Without a destination, there is no forward or backward, only motion. In Moo's posts so far he has stated combat isn't the only issue being worked on, it is just the one he though might be useful to get input on that he may not of thought of, and whether we as a community can actually offer anything to his design process. While I don't know Moo from Adam, and I don't see why he can't list what he is currently working on, I do think he should be given a chance. You can't complain about what he is doing or his approach until we see something tangible released, then I think we can critique his decisions. He admits Godus is flawed which is a good start, but to use another car analogy, do you try a service before you go ahead and replace the engine? Especially if you are budget restricted? |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 10, 2015 23:56:20 GMT
I'm basing my theory on the design choices Peter has made during the course of development so far, not on what was said in the Kickstarter. I never really gave a you-know-what about exactly what was said on Kickstarter. I filter that stuff out as irrelevant commercial dribble. Like advertisement-blindness. Which is half-silly/half-pragmatic, considering how Kickstarter should operate. If any of the hardware ventures there had run as Godus has, you'd hear the same flat silence or grumbling as you have around this project (e.g. Ouya, to an extent). That's also why I've been getting the vibe that Kickstarter's main appeal has mostly cooled off in the tech/gaming sectors, as many of their pitches have wasted their time doing what you describe, making a really good/decent enough advertisement, without any apparent intent to effectively follow through. There's a good reason Kickstarter's been having to revise some of its fine print lately. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 11, 2015 0:11:07 GMT
What's frustrating me is that I don't actually think Moo knows what the biggest complaints are. While combat and a new god powers are on the list of issues with this game, they hover, at best, as third or fourth priority below the fundamental issues we have with Godus. So, why focus on them so intently. It's especially frustrating when the combat system is the newest feature added to this game. It's not even on the list of longstanding problems. From all accounts, what we're going to be getting with combat is (if we're lucky) a rudimentary facsimile of an rts. It's a secondary feature since Godus "isn't a combat focused game" so why is it priority #1 at this stage? This is the very reason I keep focusing on why we need this stuff hammered out before adding to the pile of features in this project. I don't want the doctor to perform plastic surgery when my lungs are collapsing. Push forward and it'll all sort itself out is how we got where we are. Without a destination, there is no forward or backward, only motion. That's why I tried to rephrase your last point to maybe get that a little more across to FuriousMoo, as all the analogies and the like weren't really doing much. Someone at 22cans should have been thinking about what Godus was supposed to eventually look like, and that should have been Peter/Jack/Jamie, as well as FuriousMoo somewhere in the mix (I would think), but none of them seem to have bothered for some incomprehensible reason. I don't understand that approach to creative work, at all, personally. I get not knowing the details, but I expect there to be broad outlines that are gradually filled out and trimmed back as needed, including an idea of the final product...Which doesn't seem to have been the case here despite all the "remain dedicated to the vision" stuff Molyneux kept spouting. That confuses, and confounds me too. I went to art school, and drafting school, and Navy electrical school. I've worked as an electrician, a graphic designer, and now in ship building design. One thing I have learned is; you need to have an idea of the end product before you begin any project. It doesn't have to be highly detailed or fleshed out, and can stay fairly flexible throughout the design and production phases, but overall there needs to be some defined goal (not a vague idea like "Game" or "Boat"). I recall reading the Kickstarter Pledge - and to some degree, the Steam EA description - and thinking that they did a fairly good job of outlining the idea/plan concept. I read it again, and I still get the same general idea of what they hoped to accomplish. 22Cans apparently described a game that resulted in many people essentially envisioning the same, or tacitly similar concept. To support that statement, just look around on all the forums and other sources of feedback, and you'll see that - although there are slight variations in the concept - people's expectations all share many similarities and qualities; an organic, open-world, cross-platform God Game, with RTS and Sandbox qualities, that would work congruently and seemlessly between PC and Mobile. That means that 22Cans appeared to have a solid enough scope for the final game as per the outline. It was specific enough that most Backers/Supporters imagined what the game would be, and what to expect from the Dev team, and their resulting visions aligned rather closely with each other. What happened to that vision? Perhaps, in hindsight, they really didn't have a more solid plan outside of; make a game ... profit. The description was just vague enough, and used many key words and nostalgic references, that it could literally have been interpreted into any number of game styles. Maybe they just plucked random ideas and strung them up, as a dort of "loose foundation" just to look good enough to pass as an actual plan. So it seems - be it by intention or naivety - that they either misrepresented their plans, or lack of, and mislead a nostalgic and dedicated PC fan-base to fund an open-ended project, or they are just really bad at making solid decisions. But all this finger pointing really isn't getting us anywhere - and hasn't over the entirety of this debacle - but it does press the point we're all trying to understand; What, if anything, did they expect Godus to look like, how did they expect it to play upon launch (regardless of leaving room for that vision to change), and what do they NOW expect it to be? Discussing Combat right now is fine, as it'll help define where it fits in the overall scheme/theme of gameplay; I think most of us expected it to at least be a part of the end result (BTW: I expected combat to be much more organic, similar to what we saw in the early Prototype and the Battles scenario). That aside, I agree that the core foundation of the game need to be addressed sooner rather than later. Reading that over, I'm not sure I had a solid point, and I sort of meandered around without having a definitive end-result, rambling a bit in the middle; And that's exactly how I feel playing Godus. |
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Post by Aynen on Jan 11, 2015 0:11:31 GMT
I'm basing my theory on the design choices Peter has made during the course of development so far, not on what was said in the Kickstarter. I never really gave a you-know-what about exactly what was said on Kickstarter. I filter that stuff out as irrelevant commercial dribble. Like advertisement-blindness. Which is half-silly/half-pragmatic, considering how Kickstarter should operate. If any of the hardware ventures there had run as Godus has, you'd hear the same flat silence or grumbling as you have around this project (e.g. Ouya, to an extent). That's also why I've been getting the vibe that Kickstarter's main appeal has mostly cooled off in the tech/gaming sectors, as many of their pitches have wasted their time doing what you describe, making a really good/decent enough advertisement, without any apparent intent to effectively follow through. There's a good reason Kickstarter's been having to revise some of its fine print lately. I certainly don't think commercial dribble is a good idea, it never has been. But it's everywhere and I learned to filter it out. That's all I was trying to say. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 11, 2015 0:32:44 GMT
I'm basing my theory on the design choices Peter has made during the course of development so far, not on what was said in the Kickstarter. I never really gave a you-know-what about exactly what was said on Kickstarter. I filter that stuff out as irrelevant commercial dribble. Like advertisement-blindness. So, Godus was always a deep and challenging game except when it wasn't? When you say "always" that implies that what Godus is today is what it was from the very start of the project. Both of us know that's inaccurate. Only one of us actually wishes to admit to it. You can't just dismiss the Kickstarter as being both unimportant and inaccurate when it's the heart of the contractual obligation this project is founded on. I'd love to see that argument used in a court case over breach of contract. "Your honor, we aren't obligated to fulfill this contract because what we promised was just commercial dribble." If we can't base anything off of the Kickstarter pitch, then 22Cans is going to reach a breach of contract situation. While it's understandable that certain things may not turn out exactly as expected, they can't just pretend they can rewrite the contract at will. What was pitched in Kickstarter needs to be fulfilled or some form of restitution is in order. Whether that's refunds or an acceptable replacement remains to be determined, and 22Cans isn't the ruling authority of what would be considered acceptable. With all of that in mind, we have to look at pushing forward and how it relates to the Kickstarter if this project is going to hit "completion" since it is the only metric with legal weight. If it's not attainable, we're all just standing around playing a big game of "wouldn't it be nice if?" and biding our time until the inevitable. Most of this whole conversation with 22Cans is predicated upon the assumption that they are still able to actually fulfill the Kickstarter. That's far from clear. First and foremost is the problem that there's no road map to completion. There's no plan and no direction apart from tacking on more features in the hopes that enough aspects of Godus will resemble the Kickstarter for 22Cans to get away with calling this project completed. We've been asking for proof to the contrary since at least March 2013. I don't blame Moo for the state this project is in right now. He's barely gotten to the "what have I gotten myself into" point of this whole mess. What I'm concerned about is that he doesn't sound like he's changing the way things have been done. He doesn't appear to be getting any more organized than PM was and continuing the trend that has squandered nearly 2 years on this project. Focusing the community on a tangent area of the game rather than putting all attention and work into shoring up the core is only going to continue to make things worse. Here's another quote that drives home the issue with how what Moo's said isn't going to help get Godus any closer to the Kickstarter (From Kickstarter's FAQ): "The deities you will battle against in the game are reminiscent of Populous. These will vary in intelligence and challenge. You will find that no matter what your skill level you will be challenged. Multiplayer will offer a deep and competitive design along with ranked matchmaking so that no matter how hardcore you are, there will be a game for you. " |
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Post by Aynen on Jan 11, 2015 0:45:40 GMT
I'm basing my theory on the design choices Peter has made during the course of development so far, not on what was said in the Kickstarter. I never really gave a you-know-what about exactly what was said on Kickstarter. I filter that stuff out as irrelevant commercial dribble. Like advertisement-blindness. So, Godus was always a deep and challenging game except when it wasn't? When you say "always" that implies that what Godus is today is what it was from the very start of the project. Both of us know that's inaccurate. Only one of us actually wishes to admit to it. You can't just dismiss the Kickstarter as being both unimportant and inaccurate when it's the heart of the contractual obligation this project is founded on. I'd love to see that argument used in a court case over breach of contract. "Your honor, we aren't obligated to fulfill this contract because what we promised was just commercial dribble." If we can't base anything off of the Kickstarter pitch, then 22Cans is going to reach a breach of contract situation. While it's understandable that certain things may not turn out exactly as expected, they can't just pretend they can rewrite the contract at will. What was pitched in Kickstarter needs to be fulfilled or some form of restitution is in order. Whether that's refunds or an acceptable replacement remains to be determined, and 22Cans isn't the ruling authority of what would be considered acceptable. With all of that in mind, we have to look at pushing forward and how it relates to the Kickstarter if this project is going to hit "completion" since it is the only metric with legal weight. If it's not attainable, we're all just standing around playing a big game of "wouldn't it be nice if?" and biding our time until the inevitable. Most of this whole conversation with 22Cans is predicated upon the assumption that they are still able to actually fulfill the Kickstarter. That's far from clear. First and foremost is the problem that there's no road map to completion. There's no plan and no direction apart from tacking on more features in the hopes that enough aspects of Godus will resemble the Kickstarter for 22Cans to get away with calling this project completed. We've been asking for proof to the contrary since at least March 2013. I don't blame Moo for the state this project is in right now. He's barely gotten to the "what have I gotten myself into" point of this whole mess. What I'm concerned about is that he doesn't sound like he's changing the way things have been done. He doesn't appear to be getting any more organized than PM was and continuing the trend that has squandered nearly 2 years on this project. Focusing the community on a tangent area of the game rather than putting all attention and work into shoring up the core is only going to continue to make things worse. Here's another quote that drives home the issue with how what Moo's said isn't going to help get Godus any closer to the Kickstarter (From Kickstarter's FAQ): "The deities you will battle against in the game are reminiscent of Populous. These will vary in intelligence and challenge. You will find that no matter what your skill level you will be challenged. Multiplayer will offer a deep and competitive design along with ranked matchmaking so that no matter how hardcore you are, there will be a game for you. " I wasn't talking about obligations and breaches of contract at all, mainly because I personally don't care about those things in relation to Godus. I neither have to meet any obligations (I as a customer didn't make any), nor do I expect them to deliver anything specific. I was content with Peter doing his thing wherever that would end up. So the difference between your view and mine isn't about whether or not obligations have been met. The difference is you care about that part of it, and I don't. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 11, 2015 1:05:26 GMT
Well you might consider the promises of the KS as commercial dribble but most backers consider them legally binding contractual obligations. PM has left the building for all of un-finished Godus so I think it is naive to base any finished future product on belief soley on that failure thus far.
Anyen , your words are coming quite close to mouthpiece spin imo at this point and I have been aiming to be as un-bias as I can lately. Long and short, PM fucked us over and what we have left is whatever Moo can turn it into, but if I hear any more spin, I might vomit.
Your kosher and on board with all that has occurred as of today, bully for you, I am not. I am okay with giving Moo a shot at making the best he can out of what crap he been left with but find it insulting to insinuate any backers were reading something into thin air, when in reality we all know that we backed for a promise that was never intended and there is no commercial dribble about that, just snake oil lying bait and switch.
You might not care, but clearly many many us of care more than quite a bit.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 11, 2015 1:10:48 GMT
I wasn't talking about obligations and breaches of contract at all, mainly because I personally don't care about those things in relation to Godus. I neither have to meet any obligations (I as a customer didn't make any), nor do I expect them to deliver anything specific. I was content with Peter doing his thing wherever that would end up. So the difference between your view and mine isn't about whether or not obligations have been met. The difference is you care about that part of it, and I don't. So you were content, and quite pleased, to just help Peter and his employees pay their bills for the better part of a year? It's your money, so I won't judge you on what you do with it; but I'm fairly certain that's not what most Backers and SEA supporters gave money for. I know I didn't. There are plenty of other websites for that kind of charitable giving, but Kickstarter isn't one of them. We gave money to support the development of a product, and expected a reasonable return on that investment. [Here's that sensation of deja-vu again, except this time I know for certain that you've discussed this point before, in both the official backer forums and on steam.] That aside, Aynen, I actually like a lot of your suggestions to one degree or another. |
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Post by hardly on Jan 11, 2015 1:15:03 GMT
There is a couple of things to note here. First my interpretation of what Moo has said is that he asked us to contribute to the discussion on combat because that was on thing on his to do list and one where he thought a community discussion could yield ideas he hadn't thought of. I greatly appreciate this effort.
Second, as I recall Moo has a wider list of issues he's working on (not necessarily of a lesser priority) that probably includes common concerns that Earl is referring to. Personally I want sculpting improved as a priority.
As others have said there should have been a vision for GODUS. From where I'm sitting Peter seems to have flushed the vision most of us backed through either EA and Kickstarter once those funding processes were complete. If so this is incredibly cynical and I would say immoral. That wasn't a choice he was entitled to make since kickstarter requires the delivery of the product as specified. It's not optional to not deliver, it's also not option to not provide updates on delays. Hopefully the discussions on this board are in someway useful for Moo and the team to define what GODUS is. I agree with Earl this should be a priority.
As you say Earl, Moo is definitely at the WTF have I inherited stage. He has implied his handover was shit and that peter had no idea what he was working towards. Ultimately he will either sink or swim and he is in very deep water at the moment. He seems to have the right attitude but it will be tough.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 11, 2015 1:15:52 GMT
I wasn't talking about obligations and breaches of contract at all, mainly because I personally don't care about those things in relation to Godus. I neither have to meet any obligations (I as a customer didn't make any), nor do I expect them to deliver anything specific. I was content with Peter doing his thing wherever that would end up. So the difference between your view and mine isn't about whether or not obligations have been met. The difference is you care about that part of it, and I don't. Ignoring the legalities of the situation isn't going to make them go away. I'm concerned about them because they are something 22Cans SHOULD be concerned with. It's how businesses operate and a company that ignores them is playing with fire. As far as your obligations as a customer, you've already met them unless 22Cans gave you a copy of this game out of the blue. For the rest of the backers, our part was handing over money for the product promised on the Kickstarter or as was described on the Steam page (which referenced the Kickstarter). Just because you threw money at a PM project blindly and didn't care what was produced doesn't absolve responsibilities of 22Cans. It doesn't mean the Kickstarter was unimportant. It doesn't prove Godus was "always designed as a game where you do 'a bit of this and a bit of that' on a daily basis". It's merely how you describe what you perceive this project's been able to produce. I'm talking intentions and you're talking about results. Kickstarter's whole setup is based around the premise that what is proposed is going to be what is produced, within a reasonable amount of acceptable deviation. Feel free to check out their policies about this. It's all there about producing what you promise, good faith obligations, and the expectations of communication. I am having a hard time believing I have to prove that the Kickstarter is important in the completion of this project. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 11, 2015 1:19:47 GMT
There is a couple of things to note here. First my interpretation of what Moo has said is that he asked us to contribute to the discussion on combat because that was on thing on his to do list and one where he thought a community discussion could yield ideas he hadn't thought of. I greatly appreciate this effort. Second, as I recall Moo has a wider list of issues he's working on (not necessarily of a lesser priority) that probably includes common concerns that Earl is referring to. Personally I want sculpting improved as a priority. As others have said there should have been a vision for GODUS. From where I'm sitting Peter seems to have flushed the vision most of us backed through either EA and Kickstarter once those funding processes were complete. If so this is incredibly cynical and I would say immoral. That wasn't a choice he was entitled to make since kickstarter requires the delivery of the product as specified. It's not optional to not deliver, it's also not option to not provide updates on delays. Hopefully the discussions on this board are in someway useful for Moo and the team to define what GODUS is. I agree with Earl this should be a priority. As you say Earl, Moo is definitely at the WTF have I inherited stage. He has implied his handover was shit and that peter had no idea what he was working towards. Ultimately he will either sink or swim and he is in very deep water at the moment. He seems to have the right attitude but it will be tough. From the Steam Forum, make of it what you will: 22cans Weekly Dev Activity Update – 6th January 2015 This week here at the 22cans tower, Team Godus were mostly busy working on the iOS and Android versions of Godus getting everything in place for the Asia release. Design Designing features for the single player experience on PC Code Fixing various bugs Looking stylishly cool Production Making sure everything is in place for the Asia release. QA Tested transferring saves between iOS and Android Community Saved the cheerleader, saved the world! |
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Post by hardly on Jan 11, 2015 1:20:10 GMT
Well you might consider the promises of the KS as commercial dribble but most backers consider them legally binding contractual obligations. PM has left the building for all of un-finished Godus so I think it is naive to base any finished future product on belief soley on that failure thus far. Anyen , your words are coming quite close to mouthpiece spin imo at and this point and I have been aiming to be as un-bias as I can lately. Long and short, PM fucked us over and what we have left is whatever Moo can turn it into, but if I hear any more spin, I might vomit. Your kosher and on board with all that has occurred as of today, bully for you, I am not. I am okay with giving Moo a shot at making the best he can out of what crap he been left with but find it insulting to insinuate any backers were reading something into thin air, when in reality we all know that we backed for a promise that was never intended and there is no commercial dribble about that, just snake oil lying bait and switch. You might not care, but clearly many many us of care more than quite a bit. Peter told you what he knew you wanted to hear at the time to get your money, whether he knew he wouldn't meet those promises at the time is unknown and probably will never be known. What we do know is he has shown a casual disregard for meeting his own promises and doesn't really acknowledge any duty to kickstart backers including the obligation to keep working on godus until it meets the initial description. I think this is wrong and you are completely justified in your views. Whatever Aynen thinks, Peter has done significant harm to kickstarter. I wasnt a kickstarter backer but after this debacle I can't see myself backing a game on kickstarter in the future. |
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