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Post by hardly on Jan 11, 2015 1:23:34 GMT
I wasn't talking about obligations and breaches of contract at all, mainly because I personally don't care about those things in relation to Godus. I neither have to meet any obligations (I as a customer didn't make any), nor do I expect them to deliver anything specific. I was content with Peter doing his thing wherever that would end up. So the difference between your view and mine isn't about whether or not obligations have been met. The difference is you care about that part of it, and I don't. Ignoring the legalities of the situation isn't going to make them go away. I'm concerned about them because they are something 22Cans SHOULD be concerned with. It's how businesses operate and a company that ignores them is playing with fire. As far as your obligations as a customer, you've already met them unless 22Cans gave you a copy of this game out of the blue. For the rest of the backers, our part was handing over money for the product promised on the Kickstarter or as was described on the Steam page (which referenced the Kickstarter). Just because you threw money at a PM project blindly and didn't care what was produced doesn't absolve responsibilities of 22Cans. It doesn't mean the Kickstarter was unimportant. It doesn't prove Godus was "always designed as a game where you do 'a bit of this and a bit of that' on a daily basis". It's merely how you describe what you perceive this project's been able to produce. I'm talking intentions and you're talking about results. Kickstarter's whole setup is based around the premise that what is proposed is going to be what is produced, within a reasonable amount of acceptable deviation. Feel free to check out their policies about this. It's all there about producing what you promise, good faith obligations, and the expectations of communication. I am having a hard time believing I have to prove that the Kickstarter is important in the completion of this project. There aren't many on this forum who will disagree with you. Plus companies that shit on their customers don't last the distance. I doubt peter will develop another successful game on PC in his life, he is done. He'll have to settle for the mediocrity of mobile. |
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Post by hardly on Jan 11, 2015 1:25:30 GMT
He might have made a buck but he did it at the expense of his reputation. I guess only he can decide whether the trade was worth it.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 11, 2015 1:34:45 GMT
Setting aside the Kickstarter side-discussion, I mostly roll with what Spiderweb and hardly have said in regards to what FuriousMoo's having to go with. I'm not sure how much he'll be able to do with what's left of this thing, but hopefully we've caught him early enough to get him setting down some "big picture" ideas for what the incremental changes he's making will build up to, unlike 22cans appear to have been doing for most of this thing's development. >_> |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 11, 2015 1:36:31 GMT
Well you might consider the promises of the KS as commercial dribble but most backers consider them legally binding contractual obligations. PM has left the building for all of un-finished Godus so I think it is naive to base any finished future product on belief soley on that failure thus far. Anyen , your words are coming quite close to mouthpiece spin imo at and this point and I have been aiming to be as un-bias as I can lately. Long and short, PM fucked us over and what we have left is whatever Moo can turn it into, but if I hear any more spin, I might vomit. Your kosher and on board with all that has occurred as of today, bully for you, I am not. I am okay with giving Moo a shot at making the best he can out of what crap he been left with but find it insulting to insinuate any backers were reading something into thin air, when in reality we all know that we backed for a promise that was never intended and there is no commercial dribble about that, just snake oil lying bait and switch. You might not care, but clearly many many us of care more than quite a bit. Peter told you what he knew you wanted to hear at the time to get your money, whether he knew he wouldn't meet those promises at the time is unknown and probably will never be known. What we do know is he has shown a casual disregard for meeting his own promises and doesn't really acknowledge any duty to kickstart backers including the obligation to keep working on godus until it meets the initial description. I think this is wrong and you are completely justified in your views. Whatever Aynen thinks, Peter has done significant harm to kickstarter. I wasnt a kickstarter backer but after this debacle I can't see myself backing a game on kickstarter in the futureMe either, maybe never again. |
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Post by heggers on Jan 11, 2015 2:07:07 GMT
I wasn't talking about obligations and breaches of contract at all, mainly because I personally don't care about those things in relation to Godus. I neither have to meet any obligations (I as a customer didn't make any), nor do I expect them to deliver anything specific. I was content with Peter doing his thing wherever that would end up. So the difference between your view and mine isn't about whether or not obligations have been met. The difference is you care about that part of it, and I don't. To but it bluntly then Aynen, you are a fool and not someone who is able to effectively champion the community (not that either of you do that anyway). Whether you like it or not, the KS starter promises are obligations that the Cons have to complete otherwise they are in breach of the ToCs that creators have to agree to when running a Kickstarter. Maybe its time you started to care about the community more than yourself? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 2:19:28 GMT
Peter told you what he knew you wanted to hear at the time to get your money, whether he knew he wouldn't meet those promises at the time is unknown and probably will never be known. What we do know is he has shown a casual disregard for meeting his own promises and doesn't really acknowledge any duty to kickstart backers including the obligation to keep working on godus until it meets the initial description. I think this is wrong and you are completely justified in your views. Whatever Aynen thinks, Peter has done significant harm to kickstarter. I wasnt a kickstarter backer but after this debacle I can't see myself backing a game on kickstarter in the futureMe either, maybe never again. I've had a very pleasant experience with Kickstarter up until I backed Godus. Every single item/gizmo/project I've ever backed has been fulfilled to my expectations, except Godus. I've backed projects that have had pitfalls and hangups and all sorts of issues, but never one that the company was constantly feeding its backers/fans disingenuous B.S. over and over again like 22Cans has. Maybe I'm lucky.. but I've never backed a project where the company didn't eventually deliver what they had promised in their Kickstarter pitch . Maybe this is why I have "unreasonable" expectations for Godus, to actually deliver what they pitched, instead of making excuses over and over again why what they told us was possible.. isn't, all the while continually diverting resources away from a promised feature (PC version as explained in Kickstarter, etc). All that said, I appreciate Moo's candor. Even while some of the disappointing realistics we've been guessing at for months seem to be confirmed, I find his directness and much less "market spinny" approach to engaging us on these forums refreshing. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 11, 2015 3:38:15 GMT
Me either, maybe never again. I've had a very pleasant experience with Kickstarter up until I backed Godus. Every single item/gizmo/project I've ever backed has been fulfilled to my expectations, except Godus. I've backed projects that have had pitfalls and hangups and all sorts of issues, but never one that the company was constantly feeding its backers/fans disingenuous B.S. over and over again like 22Cans has. Maybe I'm lucky.. but I've never backed a project where the company didn't eventually deliver what they had promised in their Kickstarter pitch . Maybe this is why I have "unreasonable" expectations for Godus, to actually deliver what they pitched, instead of making excuses over and over again why what they told us was possible.. isn't, all the while continually diverting resources away from a promised feature (PC version as explained in Kickstarter, etc). All that said, I appreciate Moo's candor. Even while some of the disappointing realistics we've been guessing at for months seem to be confirmed, I find his directness and much less "market spinny" approach to engaging us on these forums refreshing. Agreed. In light of his apparent openness and 'good-faith' attitude, I'll certainly give Moo the benefit of a doubt and see what he can produce. |
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Post by hardly on Jan 11, 2015 3:54:21 GMT
Yeah I like his candor. It's tough to deal with the past and it won't go away but I trust Moo to at least be honest about the constraints he works under.
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 11, 2015 6:22:25 GMT
There's a reoccurring theme here of concern that you don't think I'm addressing 'the big picture' of Godus.
The position I'm in right now is very much a case of 'this is what you have, do the most with it that you can' rather than 'what would you like to do'? The new Godus team has only been in play for a short period of time and in the short term we need to focus on delivering small improvements in a short space of time. This is both to demonstrate to management that we are capable of delivering positive updates that move development along and to get a realistic sense of what we can deliver in what time frame. So this means discrete features we already have a lot of the groundwork in place for like combat or easy to implement features like a story. So that is the sort of update you are likely to see in the next few months. Things that we can improve and keep without being affected much when we start to tackle bigger features like for instance the resource system.
This will also buy me a lot of thinking time for what to actually do with Godus as a whole. You all want to know what this game is actually supposed to be, well so I. Like I said, I was never given any indication of what Peter's vision was of Godus as an end product beyond the kickstarter pitch. There's not much point me making grand plans now because I simply don't know what will be achievable. To be brutally candid and realistic I simply can't see us delivering all the features promised on the kickstarter page, a lot of the multiplayer stuff is looking seriously shaky right now especially the persistent stuff like hubworld.
Godus is rather confused right now, it plays like an ongoing persistent game without real end point and yet it's divided up into discrete levels. This is one of the big decisions we will need to make in the next couple of weeks. And again realistically I'm having to ask myself, "how can we turn what Godus is right now into a good complete experience" rather than "how can we deliver on the kickstarter pitch goals". We are in the process of re-evaluating the 'big picture' direction of and end goal of Godus. It's not an easy or straightforward task, but I will let you know when I can.
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 11, 2015 7:12:15 GMT
Thanks for the candid response, I'm not a KS backer, just an SEA player, all I want was good god game to waste a few hours on (which I've already spent more than a few on). Seeing the design process was a draw to SEA for me, but it has so far, been a black box and mostly a community moan fest. With exception to 2 months before Christmas and before the trail announcement I garnered more hope. Then CMs quit and the trail began and the one communicative dev fabs was taken from Godus  I must add I for one have lost all respect for Peter and his design methods plus the way he just moved on to his next project, I won't buy another PM game without very positive reviews well after a full release. I for one look forward to any improvements you can make and will continue to try to give positive feedback. (I'm a optimist). This forum is mostly a breath of fresh air compared to steam forum (great job Lord Ba'al and Qetesh) and I hope you can find some great ideas here to help. |
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Post by Aynen on Jan 11, 2015 10:10:51 GMT
I wasn't talking about obligations and breaches of contract at all, mainly because I personally don't care about those things in relation to Godus. I neither have to meet any obligations (I as a customer didn't make any), nor do I expect them to deliver anything specific. I was content with Peter doing his thing wherever that would end up. So the difference between your view and mine isn't about whether or not obligations have been met. The difference is you care about that part of it, and I don't. So you were content, and quite pleased, to just help Peter and his employees pay their bills for the better part of a year? It's your money, so I won't judge you on what you do with it; but I'm fairly certain that's not what most Backers and SEA supporters gave money for. I know I didn't. There are plenty of other websites for that kind of charitable giving, but Kickstarter isn't one of them. We gave money to support the development of a product, and expected a reasonable return on that investment. [Here's that sensation of deja-vu again, except this time I know for certain that you've discussed this point before, in both the official backer forums and on steam.] That aside, Aynen, I actually like a lot of your suggestions to one degree or another. It's not that I didn't expect a product in return for my contribution. It's just that I never felt that the kickstarter description had much hope of being accurate as to what that product would be, so I ignored it. I figured the gist of it was 'Peter wants to try his hand at re-inventing the God-game', and his attempt at doing so was enough for me. That said, I certainly wish I could have persuaded him to handle things a bit differently than he did. I can certainly understand how people approached it differently than I did, and I did champion those concerns as a mod. But personally I didn't mind Godus becoming something other than what was described. The only one who was ever able to actually talk to Peter was George, whom Peter only seemed to have listened to after Gmr Leon tried his communication thread. But when the creepy stare happened in the videos I knew something was up. A few weeks later Peter left the project without even telling his own team and that was it. Me personally caring about the kickstarter description wouldn't have changed a thing, except that I'm not super frustrated and thus able to do my job. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 11, 2015 14:33:22 GMT
So you were content, and quite pleased, to just help Peter and his employees pay their bills for the better part of a year? It's your money, so I won't judge you on what you do with it; but I'm fairly certain that's not what most Backers and SEA supporters gave money for. I know I didn't. There are plenty of other websites for that kind of charitable giving, but Kickstarter isn't one of them. We gave money to support the development of a product, and expected a reasonable return on that investment. [Here's that sensation of deja-vu again, except this time I know for certain that you've discussed this point before, in both the official backer forums and on steam.] That aside, Aynen, I actually like a lot of your suggestions to one degree or another. It's not that I didn't expect a product in return for my contribution. It's just that I never felt that the kickstarter description had much hope of being accurate as to what that product would be, so I ignored it. I figured the gist of it was 'Peter wants to try his hand at re-inventing the God-game', and his attempt at doing so was enough for me. That said, I certainly wish I could have persuaded him to handle things a bit differently than he did. I can certainly understand how people approached it differently than I did, and I did champion those concerns as a mod. But personally I didn't mind Godus becoming something other than what was described. The only one who was ever able to actually talk to Peter was George, whom Peter only seemed to have listened to after Gmr Leon tried his communication thread. But when the creepy stare happened in the videos I knew something was up. A few weeks later Peter left the project without even telling his own team and that was it. Me personally caring about the kickstarter description wouldn't have changed a thing, except that I'm not super frustrated and thus able to do my job. I'ts a good thing for PM that most others never saw it that way, or the game never would have been backed. I am not one to think someone else s fantasy or pipe dreams is something to back. I also disagree, in the KS and vid after vid, PM professed his abilities to do so. I don't think being a mod has anything to do with that either. I am not an optimist or a pessimist, I am a realist. I am not super frustrated either and able to do mine, but that does not excuse PM's sins. The only thing that is tweaking my nerves is when people make light of it. What PM did was just WRONG on so many levels it is shocking and why I will probably never back any game for a significant amount ever again, I would also never give PM a penny or any company he is affiliated now or in the future. For Godus, shame on me. I like Moo's sincerity and even if the game is never going to be ice cream, maybe we can help to assist him in putting together some tasty frozen yogurt. |
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Post by Aynen on Jan 11, 2015 15:10:37 GMT
I'ts a good thing for PM that most others never saw it that way, or the game never would have been backed. I am not one to think someone else s fantasy or pipe dreams is something to back. I also disagree, in the KS and vid after vid, PM professed his abilities to do so. I don't think being a mod has anything to do with that either. I am not an optimist or a pessimist, I am a realist. I am not super frustrated either and able to do mine, but that does excuse PM's sins. The only thing that is tweaking my nerves is when people make light of it. What PM did was just WRONG on so many levels it is shocking and why I will probably never back any game for a significant amount ever again, I would also never give PM a penny or any company he is affiliated now or in the future. For Godus, shame on me. I like Moo's sincerity and even if the game is never going to be ice cream, maybe we can help to assist him in putting together some tasty frozen yogurt. I never said what he did was right, nor am I saying you shouldn't care. (I did previously consider it detrimental, but have reached a different conclusion since) I'm only saying it doesn't affect me personally that promises where not kept. Me not caring about the promises isn't the same as saying it doesn't matter objectively. But I see personal gain in ignoring the promises. That may not apply to you. Back on topic though, since the discussion phase starts soon, I wanted to see if any of you had any input to give on my pitch. Is it clear? Is it faulty in some way? Is it missing something? |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 11, 2015 16:01:49 GMT
I am not a combat person, as you can see from my other thread on brain and brawn, I just don't care all that much about it. I was going to abstain on that thread due to that. I don't personally like any thing remotely similar to a mobile F2p, again not my thing, and Godus as it stands today is screaming that to me. I want my game not to run offline, and not to have mandatory conflicts of any kind, and I hate the term "daily" used in any game. I prefer it to be up to me how and when I choose to use what God powers and I really fall more into the vote for brains versus brawn so I feel it is like comparing apples to oranges. Many people love apples, many people love oranges, some love both and some hate all. Whatever floats anyone's boat, but for me, I say viva la choix! I think I don't have enough background to critique anyone's pitch, but they all look good to my amateur casual gamer eyes.  |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 11, 2015 16:33:59 GMT
I'ts a good thing for PM that most others never saw it that way, or the game never would have been backed. I am not one to think someone else s fantasy or pipe dreams is something to back. I also disagree, in the KS and vid after vid, PM professed his abilities to do so. I don't think being a mod has anything to do with that either. I am not an optimist or a pessimist, I am a realist. I am not super frustrated either and able to do mine, but that does excuse PM's sins. The only thing that is tweaking my nerves is when people make light of it. What PM did was just WRONG on so many levels it is shocking and why I will probably never back any game for a significant amount ever again, I would also never give PM a penny or any company he is affiliated now or in the future. For Godus, shame on me. I like Moo's sincerity and even if the game is never going to be ice cream, maybe we can help to assist him in putting together some tasty frozen yogurt. I never said what he did was right, nor am I saying you shouldn't care. (I did previously consider it detrimental, but have reached a different conclusion since) I'm only saying it doesn't affect me personally that promises where not kept. Me not caring about the promises isn't the same as saying it doesn't matter objectively. But I see personal gain in ignoring the promises. That may not apply to you. Back on topic though, since the discussion phase starts soon, I wanted to see if any of you had any input to give on my pitch. Is it clear? Is it faulty in some way? Is it missing something? I get where you're coming from, Aynen. Even though I may disagree or have a differing opinion, I definitely appreciate you even taking the time to discuss your views on all of it. I'll read through your suggestions again and see if I have any input. I have yet to gather my own thoughts on Moo's questions into something I feel is presentable and worthy to post - or worth my time - but it's easier to read what others have posted and at least give them some feedback. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 11, 2015 19:09:06 GMT
There's a reoccurring theme here of concern that you don't think I'm addressing 'the big picture' of Godus. The position I'm in right now is very much a case of 'this is what you have, do the most with it that you can' rather than 'what would you like to do'? The new Godus team has only been in play for a short period of time and in the short term we need to focus on delivering small improvements in a short space of time. This is both to demonstrate to management that we are capable of delivering positive updates that move development along and to get a realistic sense of what we can deliver in what time frame. So this means discrete features we already have a lot of the groundwork in place for like combat or easy to implement features like a story. So that is the sort of update you are likely to see in the next few months. Things that we can improve and keep without being affected much when we start to tackle bigger features like for instance the resource system. This will also buy me a lot of thinking time for what to actually do with Godus as a whole. You all want to know what this game is actually supposed to be, well so I. Like I said, I was never given any indication of what Peter's vision was of Godus as an end product beyond the kickstarter pitch. There's not much point me making grand plans now because I simply don't know what will be achievable. To be brutally candid and realistic I simply can't see us delivering all the features promised on the kickstarter page, a lot of the multiplayer stuff is looking seriously shaky right now especially the persistent stuff like hubworld. Godus is rather confused right now, it plays like an ongoing persistent game without real end point and yet it's divided up into discrete levels. This is one of the big decisions we will need to make in the next couple of weeks. And again realistically I'm having to ask myself, "how can we turn what Godus is right now into a good complete experience" rather than "how can we deliver on the kickstarter pitch goals". We are in the process of re-evaluating the 'big picture' direction of and end goal of Godus. It's not an easy or straightforward task, but I will let you know when I can. Having to "demonstrate to management that we are capable" sounds like management's all but given up on this project. I thought you were in charge of this project and management (PM and Jack unless there's a silent overlord we've been kept in the dark about) had moved on to other things. With how reluctant 22Cans seems to be about actually telling us what the hell's going on, this is doing little more than rebuilding the wall that was finally coming down with the recent "openness". To me, all this sounds like is "management" trying to stall for time while they figure out how to drop this project into the bin. Unless your "new" team is comprised of new hires, I don't understand how we're supposed to believe that the same people that have been working on Godus for 2+ years are so unfamiliar with this project. "Management" should know whether or not the people that have been working on Godus can perform by now. None of this makes a bit of sense when we look at it from the information we've been given. For the entirety of this project, we've been fed the line that 22Cans is too small to split its workforce. Supposedly, everyone was working on Godus for this whole time. Now, suddenly, everything's different and we're getting big business excuses from a company without the manpower of a big business. We're on information lockdown (with the trickle we're able to squeeze from you) about just what 22Cans is doing with this project, and none of this is making things any clearer. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 11, 2015 19:44:48 GMT
There's a reoccurring theme here of concern that you don't think I'm addressing 'the big picture' of Godus. The position I'm in right now is very much a case of 'this is what you have, do the most with it that you can' rather than 'what would you like to do'? The new Godus team has only been in play for a short period of time and in the short term we need to focus on delivering small improvements in a short space of time. This is both to demonstrate to management that we are capable of delivering positive updates that move development along and to get a realistic sense of what we can deliver in what time frame. So this means discrete features we already have a lot of the groundwork in place for like combat or easy to implement features like a story. So that is the sort of update you are likely to see in the next few months. Things that we can improve and keep without being affected much when we start to tackle bigger features like for instance the resource system. This will also buy me a lot of thinking time for what to actually do with Godus as a whole. You all want to know what this game is actually supposed to be, well so I. Like I said, I was never given any indication of what Peter's vision was of Godus as an end product beyond the kickstarter pitch. There's not much point me making grand plans now because I simply don't know what will be achievable. To be brutally candid and realistic I simply can't see us delivering all the features promised on the kickstarter page, a lot of the multiplayer stuff is looking seriously shaky right now especially the persistent stuff like hubworld. Godus is rather confused right now, it plays like an ongoing persistent game without real end point and yet it's divided up into discrete levels. This is one of the big decisions we will need to make in the next couple of weeks. And again realistically I'm having to ask myself, "how can we turn what Godus is right now into a good complete experience" rather than "how can we deliver on the kickstarter pitch goals". We are in the process of re-evaluating the 'big picture' direction of and end goal of Godus. It's not an easy or straightforward task, but I will let you know when I can. Having to "demonstrate to management that we are capable" sounds like management's all but given up on this project. I thought you were in charge of this project and management (PM and Jack unless there's a silent overlord we've been kept in the dark about) had moved on to other things. With how reluctant 22Cans seems to be about actually telling us what the hell's going on, this is doing little more than rebuilding the wall that was finally coming down with the recent "openness". To me, all this sounds like is "management" trying to stall for time while they figure out how to drop this project into the bin. Unless your "new" team is comprised of new hires, I don't understand how we're supposed to believe that the same people that have been working on Godus for 2+ years are so unfamiliar with this project. "Management" should know whether or not the people that have been working on Godus can perform by now. None of this makes a bit of sense when we look at it from the information we've been given. For the entirety of this project, we've been fed the line that 22Cans is too small to split its workforce. Supposedly, everyone was working on Godus for this whole time. Now, suddenly, everything's different and we're getting big business excuses from a company without the manpower of a big business. We're on information lockdown (with the trickle we're able to squeeze from you) about just what 22Cans is doing with this project, and none of this is making things any clearer. It makes plenty of sense to me. It's more or less as you surmise, and if I were to toss in my speculation, finally getting all the community questions through to Peter and Jack made them realize what a critical state the game was in both in terms of actual development state and community holdouts still sticking to their expectations from the Kickstarter pitch. Once it finally sunk in that we didn't intend to bend over to whatever his new vision for the game was, he decided to say screw it, "admit" he was bullshitting people on Kickstarter, and move on. 22cans still can't manage two different projects, and it looks like FuriousMoo and whoever else he has to work with weren't happy leaving Godus in its current state, so he was tossed to us and told if he could pull something together, they might give him more to work with to somewhat better develop it. That's roughly what I've said somewhere else here, and it looks like I was pretty much on point about it. I imagine there may have been more of the Cans that were willing to help him, but there was lots of managerial overriding of requests with some terms set before the requests would be granted and related resources released for his use. It sucks, but that's the awkward business setup it sounds like 22Cans has configured for itself despite its size. It's not too shocking, they've been doing this ever since they made the ridiculous move to shove out the mobile version and "try" to run development on both, even though we've all pointed out how little sense that makes (and would make, before they even went ahead with it, I'm sure). Edit: By the way, thanks for elaborating on all this FuriousMoo. That's kind of the position I'd suspected you might find yourself in, but seeing as we kept pushing the end goal line about the game, I figured it might help to highlight your response to me again. However, hammering that out again with a better take on what you're having to work through and how you will be looking to improve the game is a...sort of reassuring take on it. That might be too strong of a description of it, but it's good to know that if the game does fall short, it will probably be more of management's faulty expectations for you given the mess they made and handed off to you, less than on you and the others there trying to salvage it. (I even said as soon as things shifted to you, if you do manage to make something decent of this, you should be the one given the praise, not Molyneux.) That said, my expectations are thoroughly checked at this point, but I definitely wish you the best of luck (and I'll try to toss in my thoughts here and there, if they seem useful). |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 11, 2015 20:03:50 GMT
A little "birdie" gave me a heads up on how much we were indeed going to be left to twist but I promised to remain silent and let it ride. I swallowed back my upchuck reactions and aside from a few biting posts let it mostly go. I do know for a FACT that we are of little thought for PM and call it a moan fest but you would be amazed at how much having actual knowledge would poison your dreams when burst beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I hope for some good tasting frozen yogurt but that ice cream salesman has lost any and all forms of respect I could ever have for any single person. So, once again...horse is rotting...on ward we go to some frozen yogurt making. I might prefer Cherry Garcia but Chunky Monkey and also Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough is yummy too. What would be best for both worlds is a way to pick and choose your flavor from day to day. That is my sustained hope for Godus. If I can't have the ice cream then let me have my pick of my flavors from my whims of when I feel like partaking of my snack.
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 11, 2015 20:19:05 GMT
There's a reoccurring theme here of concern that you don't think I'm addressing 'the big picture' of Godus. The position I'm in right now is very much a case of 'this is what you have, do the most with it that you can' rather than 'what would you like to do'? The new Godus team has only been in play for a short period of time and in the short term we need to focus on delivering small improvements in a short space of time. This is both to demonstrate to management that we are capable of delivering positive updates that move development along and to get a realistic sense of what we can deliver in what time frame. So this means discrete features we already have a lot of the groundwork in place for like combat or easy to implement features like a story. So that is the sort of update you are likely to see in the next few months. Things that we can improve and keep without being affected much when we start to tackle bigger features like for instance the resource system. This will also buy me a lot of thinking time for what to actually do with Godus as a whole. You all want to know what this game is actually supposed to be, well so I. Like I said, I was never given any indication of what Peter's vision was of Godus as an end product beyond the kickstarter pitch. There's not much point me making grand plans now because I simply don't know what will be achievable. To be brutally candid and realistic I simply can't see us delivering all the features promised on the kickstarter page, a lot of the multiplayer stuff is looking seriously shaky right now especially the persistent stuff like hubworld. Godus is rather confused right now, it plays like an ongoing persistent game without real end point and yet it's divided up into discrete levels. This is one of the big decisions we will need to make in the next couple of weeks. And again realistically I'm having to ask myself, "how can we turn what Godus is right now into a good complete experience" rather than "how can we deliver on the kickstarter pitch goals". We are in the process of re-evaluating the 'big picture' direction of and end goal of Godus. It's not an easy or straightforward task, but I will let you know when I can. Having to "demonstrate to management that we are capable" sounds like management's all but given up on this project. I thought you were in charge of this project and management (PM and Jack unless there's a silent overlord we've been kept in the dark about) had moved on to other things. With how reluctant 22Cans seems to be about actually telling us what the hell's going on, this is doing little more than rebuilding the wall that was finally coming down with the recent "openness". To me, all this sounds like is "management" trying to stall for time while they figure out how to drop this project into the bin. Unless your "new" team is comprised of new hires, I don't understand how we're supposed to believe that the same people that have been working on Godus for 2+ years are so unfamiliar with this project. "Management" should know whether or not the people that have been working on Godus can perform by now. None of this makes a bit of sense when we look at it from the information we've been given. For the entirety of this project, we've been fed the line that 22Cans is too small to split its workforce. Supposedly, everyone was working on Godus for this whole time. Now, suddenly, everything's different and we're getting big business excuses from a company without the manpower of a big business. We're on information lockdown (with the trickle we're able to squeeze from you) about just what 22Cans is doing with this project, and none of this is making things any clearer. If management (which includes PM as the studio head and our financial officer) wanted to halt development, they just would. There's nothing to figure out, it's really that simple. I have never once said I was in charge of the project as a whole. I'm a designer so I'm leading the design and direction of the game, that's it. I can engage you on topics relating to the design of features and mechanics of the game and nothing else. Also I would like to point out that no one has told me to come to these forums and engage with you at all directly, that's my decision and something I have done a lot on my own time. I could just as easily leave it to the community guys and that is what will happen as soon as I feel that discussions stop becoming useful to me in terms of game design. As I said in my first post; I have exactly zero interest in pr and community relations and I'm not here to make you feel better and make excuses for how the development has been handled up to this point. I believe there is a lot I can do to improve the game, but nothing to erase the bitterness felt by the pc community over the last 2 years. Whether you choose to engage with me is up to you, but you're wasting your time if you bring up topics not directly relating to design. I've gone off topic in general too much already, If you want to ask questions keep it design. You may not like some of the answers and I may not not be ready to answer some of the questions (probably a lot of them at this stage as I have a lot to work out). |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 11, 2015 21:24:46 GMT
If management (which includes PM as the studio head and our financial officer) wanted to halt development, they just would. There's nothing to figure out, it's really that simple. I have never once said I was in charge of the project as a whole. I'm a designer so I'm leading the design and direction of the game, that's it. I can engage you on topics relating to the design of features and mechanics of the game and nothing else. Also I would like to point out that no one has told me to come to these forums and engage with you at all directly, that's my decision and something I have done a lot on my own time. I could just as easily leave it to the community guys and that is what will happen as soon as I feel that discussions stop becoming useful to me in terms of game design. As I said in my first post; I have exactly zero interest in pr and community relations and I'm not here to make you feel better and make excuses for how the development has been handled up to this point. I believe there is a lot I can do to improve the game, but nothing to erase the bitterness felt by the pc community over the last 2 years. Whether you choose to engage with me is up to you, but you're wasting your time if you bring up topics not directly relating to design. I've gone off topic in general too much already, If you want to ask questions keep it design. You may not like some of the answers and I may not not be ready to answer some of the questions (probably a lot of them at this stage as I have a lot to work out). At this point, I'm trying to get as much information as possible about what's actually happening over there. I'm not going to bother with a bunch of design speculation with anyone until I'm convinced there's a point to it. While it's nice that a developer is being serious about including the community in the design process, it's hard for me to care since slapping combat on the current game won't help things. With you being pushed to do so, I can't help but feel like this is more of the same thing we've been getting since day #1. Our recommendations are only really being listened to if they fit within the very tiny parameter of what 22Cans wants to hear. I'm well aware of the fact that you don't have to be here and you could pick up your toys and go home. This has been the way every single time we've tried to engage anyone with any say in 22Cans on any meaningful issues. Godus is a fundamentally flawed game. Combat isn't a fundamental aspect of this game so fixing/expanding it isn't going to fix that. Even after you've put effort into the combat expansion, Godus is still going to be fundamentally flawed. Essentially, you want the community to focus on a tangent rather than try to help figure out how to address the fundamental problems. I really don't care what management thinks at this point. They seem to feel like they can do whatever they please and there won't be any ramifications. At this point, apart from your communication, it feels as if they've pretty much halted development already. We have no idea how big the team is that's working on Godus, what the cutoff is for development, or even where anyone expects Godus to go in the future. If it wasn't for you on here, we're back to another information blackout. You are the only proof that this project still exists within 22Cans. If you choose to storm off in a huff because a badly maligned community refuses to do exactly what you want, it's your call. You're a representative of a company that has insulted, belittled, and ignored this community at large and that really isn't something we are willing to ignore. I didn't have to try to be civil when I responded to your request. Instead, I've tried my best to point out how I see this as the wrong direction for this project at this time. I've repeatedly brought up concerns this community has and pointed out just how confused the situation is for us. If that's not good enough and you think I'm unreasonable then I feel for you. A few months down the line, people won't be so willing to walk on eggshells to keep you happy, and it won't be just one critical voice pushing back. All I'm doing is cutting to the chase rather than waiting for the inevitable conclusion. |
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