|
|
Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 7, 2015 14:43:38 GMT
So heres the first in depth topic: God powers in combat. Please read my comments in the ***Involving community in design--DEV THREAD *** before posting. Here are some questions to ask yourselves to get you started: What are the problems with the current god powers in terms of combat? What can we do with the current powers to make them work better in terms of combat? How would changes to current god powers effect the game as a whole outside of combat? Do we need any new god powers for combat? Justify the inclusion off and explain the functionality of any new god powers suggested in relation to combat and the game as a whole. Ok new rule for these threads. You get one post to make your pitch in. Refine and edit it as you see fit. All pitch posts will be moved to the top of the thread and discussion can continue further down and on subsequent pages. This is to keep the thread better organised and easier for me to use. We are going to be super focused here so anything off topic in your pitch we'll ask you to remove.
|
|
|
|
Post by Aynen on Jan 7, 2015 15:37:44 GMT
Last edit: 1/8/2015 22:37
General design philosophy:
- Casting powers should represent a significant time investment through high belief cost.
- Choosing whether to deal with combat through powers or your army should be a choice of how you want to spend your time/belief.
- Powers should not serve the same purpose as an army.
- Powers should create gameplay that forces the player to continuously re-evaluate their next move.
Problems with the current god powers for combat:
- They are the quickest way to destroy something, competing with any army you might have because they both serve the same purpose.
- They offer no reason to re-evaluate what you need to do in order to achieve your goals. (if you're trying to destroy a building with the finger of god for instance, the building is either destroyed, or you cast it again. Nothing will happen that makes you consider another option along the way)
What do we do to improve powers for combat:
step:
- Increase the cost of Meteor and Finger of God to the point where they can be cast sparingly.
- Finger of God and Meteor should be cheaper if used on friendly units, and more expensive when used on enemies.
- supply every player with a free defensive army at all times to deal with incoming raids when the player can't or doesn't want to invest belief into Meteors / Finger of God.
- Keep swamps cheap and increase it's slowing effect on raiding parties that pass through it.
- Using Finger of God on an incoming raiding party would tell your soldiers to attack it.
Leap:
- Using an army and using offensive spells must serve different purposes. If you conquer or destroy towns using soldiers, and you buff your soldiers using spells, then the two mechanics complement each other rather than to compete with each other. This requires new spells that buff soldiers.
- Once these buffs are cast, the player still needs to keep an eye on the battle in order to see if additional spells are required for their army to win. This means they have to continuously re-evaluate the situation.
- By extension this means AI code needs to be written so soldiers can go over to a town, fight it's defenses and conquer the town if they remain there for an x amount of time without being driven away. (I suggest this x amount of time to be in the range of 12 hours or more, to ensure that the player has time to interact even if they are casual gamers. By active buffing through god powers, this time can be reduced, as it ensures that the player is aware and interacting with the game at this time)
required new assets:
- Buffing power to increase the effectiveness of soldiers. The effect must not be big enough to ensure that casting once would make them win any war. You need to be able to evaluate if investing more belief into more buffs is needed or not, thus the buffs need to stack.
- power that decreases the time it takes for your army's presence to trigger a town being conquered.
- Timer that detects the presence of your soldiers in an enemy town that converts the town to the player's control when it reaches zero. (including visual representation of this timer)
- code that triggers your soldiers to attack a town if you've used god powers to damage an enemy town in some way.
- code that triggers your soldiers to stop attacking if you've used god powers to damage your own attacking soldiers.
- every player needs a free defensive army at all time to defend against raids the player otherwise ignores.
These changes will have an effect on existing offensive powers such as Meteor and Finger of God in that they must be re-balanced to not be able to do the job of conquering / destroying towns quicker than a buffed army can. Offensive powers should be a player's way of telling their people what they should destroy for the player. These powers should still be usable to deform terrain however.
|
|
|
|
Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 7, 2015 15:55:20 GMT
Ok, let's attempt to give a suggestion in the right format: Problems with the current god powers for combat: - They are the quickest way to destroy something, competing with any army you might have because they both serve the same purpose. - They offer no reason to re-evaluate what you need to do in order to achieve your goals. (if you're trying to destroy a building with the finger of god for instance, the building is either destroyed, or you cast it again. Nothing will happen that makes you consider another option along the way) What do we do to improve powers for combat: - Using an army and using offensive spells must serve different purposes. If you conquer or destroy towns using soldiers, and you buff your soldiers using spells, then the two mechanics complement each other rather than to compete with each other. This requires new spells that buff soldiers. - Once these buffs are cast, the player still needs to keep an eye on the battle in order to see if additional spells are required for their army to win. This means they have to continuously re-evaluate the situation. - By extension this means AI code needs to be written so soldiers can go over to a town, fight it's defenses and conquer the town if they remain there for an x amount of time without being driven away. (I suggest this x amount of time to be in the range of 12 hours or more, to ensure that the player has time to interact even if they are casual gamers. By active buffing through god powers, this time can be reduced, as it ensures that the player is aware and interacting with the game at this time) required new assets: - Buffing power to increase the effectiveness of soldiers. The effect must not be big enough to ensure that casting once would make them win any war. You need to be able to evaluate if investing more belief into more buffs is needed or not, thus the buffs need to stack. - power that decreases the time it takes for your army's presence to trigger a town being conquered. - Timer that detects the presence of your soldiers in an enemy town that converts the town to the player's control when it reaches zero. (including visual representation of this timer) - code that triggers your soldiers to attack a town if you've used god powers to damage an enemy town in some way. - code that triggers your soldiers to stop attacking if you've used god powers to damage your own attacking soldiers. These changes will have an effect on existing offensive powers such as Meteor and Finger of God in that they must be re-balanced to not be able to do the job of conquering / destroying towns quicker than a buffed army can. Offensive powers should be a player's way of telling their people what they should destroy for the player. These powers should still be usable to deform terrain however. Would this be the correct format for suggestions, FuriousMoo? Better. But before thinking too much about new powers and features, I'd like you to think about and expand upon how you would re-balance finger of god and meteor to work. Finger of gods currently makes soldiers redundant, what can we do to it to still give a function both in terms of combat and non combat while solving this problem. The same goes for meteor. Consider the scenario of an Astari raiding party on it's way to raid your settlement. How would alter the current powers to make them useful in dealing with the raiding party without being completely overpowered? |
|
|
|
Post by catonmushroom on Jan 7, 2015 16:34:03 GMT
just a tought tho, maybe some follower influence area. for things more destructive or like conversion of (enemy)followers
sacrifice a follower dropping a meteor on his head to make space for building as well to couse mayhem on the enemy if the follower makes it near its target.
or just convert or distract them making peace by charm the area.
but its a wild thought.
|
|
muir
Participator
Posts: 15 
|
Post by muir on Jan 7, 2015 16:49:03 GMT
Currently, combat is very haphazard in that it feels like it's been put in as an after thought. It is neither well-balanced nor well thought out, and the player is forced to fight when they might not want to do so.
Combat, first and foremost, should be optional. There should always be more than one way to "win" over a civilisation in Godus. Several different options can be implemented via the information window that appears when the player clicks on a settlement.
Combat options:
Declare war. - This gives the player the ability to wage war upon a particular city. To declare war, the player simply clicks on the city and selects the "declare war" option from the list. Doing so triggers the warriors in that city to come out to defend it. The player can then select their troops and direct them to attack. If the attack is successful, the city and any inhabitants convert over to the player's religion and control. If the attack is unsuccessful, the surviving enemy troops march to the nearest player controlled settlement and attack. If they are successful, that settlement is converted over and the player loses control of it. The war ends when either control of one player settlement is lost or when all the enemy AI troops are killed.
Convert. - This option starts a peaceful conquering mode where the player attempts to peacefully convert the AI followers to their cult. This could be done by use of a special "priest" or "missionary" follower. When the convert option is chosen, the player can choose two priest followers to journey to the AI settlement. These followers proselytise to the AI people who slowly convert over to the player's cult. The happiness meter can be used as a way to measure the rate of conversion. The happier the player's followers are, the faster the AI people convert. Conversely, if the player's followers aren't happy, then the player could run the risk of losing the priests to the AI god. The priests remain in the AI settlement until their stamina is low, at which point they return to their homes to sleep, returning to the AI village when they have recovered.
Peacefully live with. - This final option allows the player to build near the AI settlement, but not control it, the AI followers, or be able to sculpt the land around it. The AI people and the player's followers who live nearby will socialise with each other and very rarely, one or the other will convert over, but this should be a very rare occurrence (possibly 1:1000 chance of it happening).
God Powers and Combat:
God powers for player vs AI combat should be limited to "natural" powers (e.g. swamps, beautify), powers which affect only the player's followers, such as the buff power which improves a followers energy or health levels. Powers such as earthquake, tornado/hurricane, meteors and Finger of God could potentially make battle too easy for the player.
For the convert mode, the more direct powers such as earthquake, meteors, Finger of God, and so on could work as a way to prove yourself to the AI people. Using these powers within a given radius of the AI settlement could cause those AI people who witness it to convert over more quickly. To encourage the player to use these powers sparingly though, they could be coded in such a way as to render each one ineffective once it's been used.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gmr Leon on Jan 7, 2015 18:27:32 GMT
Better. But before thinking too much about new powers and features, I'd like you to think about and expand upon how you would re-balance finger of god and meteor to work. Finger of gods currently makes soldiers redundant, what can we do to it to still give a function both in terms of combat and non combat while solving this problem. The same goes for meteor. Consider the scenario of an Astari raiding party on it's way to raid your settlement. How would alter the current powers to make them useful in dealing with the raiding party without being completely overpowered? Without drifting too much: I don't think it's a good idea to try to make some/all powers have both violent/nonviolent uses. This over complicates or over simplifies their design in detrimental ways, if you ask me. Nevertheless... Going back to the OP: Problems with current god powers in terms of combat (and what could be done to improve them in combat) Frankly, I'd say that there just isn't enough combat to say. If I look at the few instances where there is, though: - Finger of god just seems pointless and weak. You don't want it overpowered, but then it can only affect a few at a time, still requiring two squishes to be effective. Flinging enemies with this as an alternative to outright squashing them also feels inconsistent. --Potential adjustments: should serve as a sort of stun against enemies, as well as possibly directing certain followers as Aynen says. This way it's less of an outright squash'em all ability and more of a guiding pointer. If the direct damage quality of it was still desired, you might make it so that that requires being within vision of followers (going back to the empowerment idea I mentioned earlier). I'm not sure how possible that is, but seeing as followers already show some response to their surroundings, it seems like you could adjust that to affect powers. (It's already offset to shrines in a way, so I think it's sort of possible.) --Additional thoughts would be to improve the consistency of flinging enemies, so you're not just two or so squashes and done with them. - Meteor is great, it feels mostly like it should. However, better visual feedback like something on the ground to know where it's going to be hitting would help readjust aim, as the current perspective can make it difficult to discern this. It should be your primary offensive power early on, the major damage dealer to larger groups of enemies. However, you could also use it for shellshock as a wider area of effect than finger of god to slow down enemies and get your followers up to them. Followers, if it's not becoming clear, would be your cheaper but slower method of tackling enemies. --What I'm thinking of with the stun and shellshock mentioned above is that these wouldn't be new abilities at all, but a repurposing of the champions' knockdown ability, adjusting the affected area as desired. - Swamp is...useless? I'm not sure if it was ever restored to affect your enemies again, so it's kind of just a useless environmental change. I agree with some of the other thoughts to make it less of a directly offensive ability and more of a slowdown than anything else. If used well, you might also have these reduce stamina leading to enemies falling back due to exhaustion (treating walking through them as you would constructing a large building). - Holy Forest, Rain of Purity, and Beautify: none of these, to my knowledge, affect combat at all, but these could be readjusted to sway enemies to your side. However, the only part of the game that even indicates that ability are the festivals, so I don't know if that can be reworked for other parts of the game or not. How would changes affect them outside of combat
-If the changes were made to finger of god as mentioned, this could act as an improved form of leashing, directing groups of followers at once without having to pick each individual one. -If meteor were changed...It would mostly remain the same. It's a meteor, unless the resource system is adjusted, it doesn't make sense for it to do much else other than be aggressive. -If swamp were changed, it could act as a passive defense or a method of keeping followers from wandering too far off (if its effects were applied to all people). -If holy forest, rain of purity, and beautify were changed, it'd be mostly the same as now, except you might be able to more actively modify the loyalty of taunting tribes/raiding parties to join you, instead of it feeding solely into happiness. New god powers?
-As much as I'd like to suggest some, I'd say it's better if combat or general follower interactions can be sorted out first, so then we can see what makes sense from there. If combat isn't all that central to the game, then more aggressive abilities (like meteor) wouldn't (and arguably don't) make much sense. If it is, then more solely aggressive abilities like that can make more sense. (Comet excluded because comet does literally only one thing and is otherwise useless and I don't know how it could be modified to be anything else without applying its same effects to meteor.) Additional thoughts:
-If the powers were modified in such a way as to have a controllable side effect (i.e. stun/shellshock/exhaustion) by careful use, you could make it so that militant followers are implemented earlier/simultaneously with these powers, in such a way that you learn how to manage both together instead of relying too heavily on one or the other. E.g. if Finger of God only stuns and guides military followers to the site (when used on enemies), you learn the value of both. Similarly, if you see that Meteor doesn't flat out crush and burn every follower beneath it, instead shellshocking some near its impact, you learn the value of having military followers nearby ready to clean up the rest instead of spamming Meteor. |
|
|
|
Post by Qetesh on Jan 7, 2015 18:54:24 GMT
So heres the first in depth topic: God powers in combat. Please read my comments in the ***Involving community in design--DEV THREAD *** before posting. Here are some questions to ask yourselves to get you started: What are the problems with the current god powers in terms of combat? What can we do with the current powers to make them work better in terms of combat? How would changes to current god powers effect the game as a whole outside of combat? Do we need any new god powers for combat? Justify the inclusion off and explain the functionality of any new god powers suggested in relation to combat and the game as a whole. Ok new rule for these threads. You get one post to make your pitch in. Refine and edit it as you see fit. All pitch posts will be moved to the top of the thread and discussion can continue further down and on subsequent pages. This is to keep the thread better organised and easier for me to use. We are going to be super focused here so anything off topic in your pitch we'll ask you to remove.
Note from the Admin: We will be following through on these requested thread structures and editing by the 22cans staff to assist them in a positive constructive manner for the Godus PC sprint design team. Please adhere to their format or OT posts will be moved to the drift thread and multiple pitch posts will be merged. |
|
|
|
Post by totallytim on Jan 7, 2015 18:57:19 GMT
It might be interesting to "let followers decide" whether they want to do battle or not. Maybe tying it in with the now maybe forgotten feature of followers learning.
For example (globally speaking) followers who live in a less beautiful and more cramped/poor environment might be more inclined to fight or even volunteer to join the army and pillage wealthier lands since they have little reason to stay home. The player would then gain options to evolve his followers into "barbaric warmongers" and lose some options to beautify his city build or fortify/maintain walls, etc.
On the other hand rich and happy followers would be much less inclined to join the army. So it'd cost more of your "godly resource" to persuade individual followers to take up a weapon and fight. They might also be less motivated and thus a bit less effective in battle. They would however gain the ability to build better defensive structures like stone walls and watchtowers.
Followers views on war could also change over time. A "peaceful" and defensive nation could lose all in a war. They would perhaps want revenge and start thinking more about fighting. A now offensive nation wouldn't care too much about walls and towers, so they would stop maintaining them. This would prevent players from building the "perfect defence" and then going all-in war without consequence.
On the other hand the previously hostile people would maybe want to settle down since they now have something to live for... or not... maybe they just want to waste their spoils and build some useless golden statue and continue fighting.
If you don't like it you could just smite them or something and try to change their mind.
I support the idea of 3 soldier types (maybe: rock, paper, scissors) but I don't think wizards would fit in along followers. Even if the devs decide to include some mythical creatures.
Also concerning god powers: they are probably way too strong compared to soldiers, so you'd need to balance it out by ether having some negative effect on your own followers when used in battle or give soldiers some abilities to make them be able to complete objectives not achievable by brute (meteor) force.
|
|
|
|
Post by Spiderweb on Jan 7, 2015 19:30:33 GMT
Key:
FoG - Finger of God.
Steps>
What are the problems with the current god powers in terms of combat?
They are overpowered, they need differing effects dependent on who you use them against friend or foe.
What can we do with the current powers to make them work better in terms of combat?
Use of FoG, kills one but throws the others some distances (but with little damage) same for meteor, making them harder to keep hitting . Dead enemies damage the land were they falls for a fairly long period (cursed earth). You can not build there after so be careful where you use it.
Swamp should weaken or just slow down as it did in voyages, but leave it there a long time for battle curse areas (be careful were you wage your wars).
How would changes to current god powers effect the game as a whole outside of combat?
Killing Enemies causes blight, killing followers doesn't. Help them at risk to your chances of expansion. Beautify would need to either not affect this type of blight or become very expensive. Swamp should fade slowly and not clear with beautify.
Do we need any new god powers for combat?
Angel and demon summon would be nice. Angel heals yours and enemy followers and maybe even makes them return home peacefully? Demons burn any souls near it in a radius. Possibly magical battlefield temporary buffs to military stats (heal, strengthen, enhance vision/accuracy, speed). Plague/disease, make followers sick and spread to others. Battlefield thicket - grow impassable wall of bushes/trees along a drawn line. Cure/heal plague/disease.
Justify the inclusion off and explain the functionality of any new god powers suggested in relation to combat and the game as a whole.
See above Angels peaceful affect, demons escalate violence. Temporary buffs to an area would be just like planting a time limited shrine. Would also be useful when not a war instead of shrines taking up space.
plague/disease - spreads to followers, can infect town and required you to cure it.
Thicket, used to create bottlenecks in battle, tactical, like sculpting but causes damage if touched.
Leaps>
I've suggested else where new brushes, how about a brush to paint a battlefield. Where you want them to fight, military are attracted to this painted location.
Include a god\bad meter, measure your use of powers to do good and bad, which in turn effects how the enemy acts towards you. Good they welcome you and can be converted peacefully, bad and they start to get more and more aggressive.
Maybe this is not in a current combat system but you definitely already have areas you can and can not use powers - grey zones and no sculpting in Astari villages. You also have ways to expand into those zones with beacons (you can make user place-able)? You can still force non-playable grey protected areas for future expansion, this sort of control must be worth visiting as during conflict your casting is then limited by Area of Influence (are gods powered by their follows belief or are they omnipotent to start with, when they are undisputed then they should become omnipotent) and able to cast anywhere? I know this is very "black & white" but it was good in that.
Also you did appear to have abode related Area of Influence in P v AI in Godus 1.4, It doesn't look like LUA script to me (but I'm no expert!).
|
|
|
|
Post by hardly on Jan 7, 2015 20:03:30 GMT
This is a comment rather than a pitch so I expect it get pushed down by people's official suggestions.
At first I thought put meteor and finger of God on a timer to prevent spamming and then takes steps to remove the need to use them in peace time.
The problem with offensive powers like FoG and Meteor in this and any other game is if there are two players, they both have the powers, then regardless of restrictions there is little strategy. The equal availability of powers cancels each other out making them irrelevant. The likely result is the obliteration of both armies and a stale mate or the expenditure of both belief pools and then resolution through conventional content.
How do other games solve this? The first example that comes to mind is the classic heroes of might and magic - direct damage powers (check) and battles (check). Cool so what do they do to resolve this? They use turns which forces either/or decision making. Cool. They also have a combination of buffing, summoning and direct damage powers to choose from. Why buff instead of direct damage? Well if you have a big stack of units buffing x unit size gives greater benefit to straight damage since buffing scales while direct damage doesn't. So direct damage is influenced by the size of armies (relative to damage output) and the other available options if it's an either or scenario.
So my suggestion would be as follows:
• step - put a counter on finger of God (say 5 charges) that regenerates slowly. Make it so the player effectively gets 10 charges in a battle with each one strong enough to kill a warrior. Put a similar counter on meteor but make it like one charge. Perhaps like the timers so if you expend meteor you don't get fog to build in choice. Also remove need (but not ability) for FoG and Meteor in general game play by giving other options for killing own citizens/removing buildings
• leap - introduce buffs/debuffs as alternative to FoG and Meteor. Could include heals, bless, blind, swords to fish, imbue champion, summoning powers, necromancy, etc. implement with linked cool downs to force choices rather than spamming based on belief pool.
• fly - introduce three belief pools (good, neutral, evil) and link battle related abilities to good and bad. Make good and bad relatively rare in generation and linked to behaviour of you as a god and beliefs of your people.
Ok I turned this into a pitch. I might have to fix it up later.
|
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Jan 7, 2015 23:54:50 GMT
Well, regarding the finger of god, I never liked it's implementation. When I think finger of god I think something like this...
Naturally a power like that would have to be a lot more 'expensive' belief wise than it's current implementation.
I'm still awaiting actual fun god powers such as tidal wave, whirlpool, volcano, lightning, earthquake, you name it.
The meteor spell works great I think. I don't think it needs changing, though it would be cool if there was an ability to control how much belief to spend on it. (with of course more belief leading to greater destruction)
|
|
|
|
Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 8, 2015 2:49:47 GMT
Remember that Tornado power that was all over the Kickstarter? Yeah, that's sort of something that needs to happen...
|
|
|
|
Post by darkmoondragon on Jan 8, 2015 17:49:52 GMT
God powers in combat should be considered "miracles."
I've read the two threads concerning input in game design. It occurred to me almost right away that you may not need to alter offensive God powers at all in combat, just restrict them in time. In the context of a players own "realm" they could remain the same but in the context of any given war or conflict swamp might be available to use ten times and meteor might be allowable only once or twice since it is a much more powerful "miracle." To this end you might have a kind of combat miracle "meter" which drains like an hour glass. When it's empty, no more miracles can be used to aid your forces until the conflict is resolved and a separate threat emerges. God powers which cause more damage would therefore drain the meter faster. I don't write code but it seems pretty evident that not changing the powers but restricting their use in this context would be easier and make sense in the context of the overall game.
The solution above is both elegant and simple within the framework of the existing game in which the player is nearly omnipotent in his established realm and almost powerless in areas not yet opened by beacons of expansion. The realm of combat would be an in between area of limited power without any need to alter the other two spheres. An elegant solution for a beautifully designed game. This approach parallels antique literary solutions such as Tolkien's Silmarillion where Tulkas and the other gods can easily defeat Morgoth but only get the chance occasionally over the span of time thus allowing exciting warfare between the elves and their sworn enemies the orcs and other dark creatures. This is a different solution but here also powers in themselves are not limited or altered just restricted in a temporal sense.
Regarding kinds of warriors: Godus is not dungeons and dragons IMHO and there probably should not be magic casting fighters. The "magic" is that the player is a deity and can perform certain godly acts and "miracles." I would keep it simple and perhaps have soldiers with swords and or spears and archers (or other weapon types). In a general sense I think that the focus should be on strategy and the judicious and strategic use of offensive or positive "miracles." Soldiers should probably be a distinct class who are created in a 'barracks," except in the case of the converted Astari who it could turn out are "natural" fighters due to their more robust bodies and temperament and who therefore simply needed to be recruited to join the ranks. The converted Astari might turn out to be fabulous fighters but the occasional Astari might break ranks and desert (run away) due to the downside that they are selfish and self absorbed; or they may simply join the other side for no good reason from time to time. Annoying as usual. It would be fun to have a choice of uniform colors.
I would think that at least a 2D zoom back function would be important if any of this is implemented on IOS for strategic reasons and enjoyment.
Thanks for your great work thus far. Hope some of this is helpful.
darkmoondragon
(M aka Darkmoon Dragon)
|
|
|
|
Post by rubgish on Jan 8, 2015 21:53:27 GMT
God powers in combat suffer generally from difficult balancing issues. Powers easily end up either too strong or too weak. Currently with sufficient belief, god powers can be used to entirely crush entire enemy armies. While making you feel powerful, it makes your followers feel pointless.
An easy fix is to limit the range in which combat powers can be used, as per the old combat system where range of action expanding out from built houses. Perhaps the best way to do this is to reverse the old system, and have you able to use powers anywhere except near enemy buildings.
This has the benefit of allowing current god powers to be balanced around fun gameplay & thus not drastically changed, while still meaning that follower vs follower combat must occur if you wish to be aggressive and attack other players.
In terms of new god powers, I would suggest a few ones that temporarily boost your troops passively. For example, a 60 second move speed/attack speed buff, or a heal-troops-to-full spell. This should be fairly easy to implement, and gives the player the choice between playing as an active or passive god. These would not make a difference to standard gameplay, but would improve combat play.
Jan 8, 2015 22:04:01 GMT FuriousMoo said:
rubgish Avatar
Jan 8, 2015 21:53:27 GMT rubgish said:
An easy fix is to limit the range in which combat powers can be used, as per the old combat system where range of action expanding out from built houses. Perhaps the best way to do this is to reverse the old system, and have you able to use powers anywhere except near enemy buildings.
I think you're thinking of Black & White, there was never anything like this in Godus.
In the version of godus that used to have separate PvP worlds with the cringey AI text chat (v1.4? someone may be able to correct me on that), you had a zone of influence in battles that expanded out from your buildings.
|
|
|
|
Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 8, 2015 22:04:01 GMT
An easy fix is to limit the range in which combat powers can be used, as per the old combat system where range of action expanding out from built houses. Perhaps the best way to do this is to reverse the old system, and have you able to use powers anywhere except near enemy buildings. I think you're thinking of Black & White, there was never anything like this in Godus. The sequence you pointed out was scripted in lua to have influence areas enlarge from two predefined points based on total population, not house positions. Noting, but dirty trickery I tell you. Also our system right now does not support area of influence shrinking. Once it's uncovered it says uncovered for good. I'm not saying making some changes to the way area of influence works is out of the question (it would be a fairly small feature), but I'm not convinced it is a good solution. In Black & White I would find myself building long 'roads' made of small houses up to the enemy base so I could lob fireballs and rocks at them. It was a very inelegant system and one I would like to avoid. Also it doesn't solve the problem where as long as you see the enemy coming you could still wipe out massive armies with little effort as soon as they reached your borders. I'm reluctant to render meteor impotent, it makes a satisfyingly big hole especially when fully upgraded. It's fun blowing up mountains and I don't want to see that gone. I could give enemy followers an anti meteor radius similar to how the astari village is protected (but also have it only do some damage and nerf it's knock back effect and set on fire effect), it's not ideal, but am struggling for a better option. My current idea for finger of god is to give it a lengthy cool down after it has been used to directly kill an enemy follower. That way it would still have use in combat and you could still use it to destroy your own stuff without restriction. And with clever use of the tree power combined with finger of god you could set fire traps. |
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Jan 8, 2015 23:30:06 GMT
Forgive me for asking, I don't know if this has been addressed. Are we talking about player versus player battles here or player versus AI battles? Or player versus player versus AI? Or 8 players battling each other? Or are we talking limited minor skirmishes of player versus in-game tribes like the Astari and such? Also, question for FuriousMoo, have you ever played Populous the Beginning? If not, please give it a try soon before you start drawing up or finalizing your combat design plans. |
|
|
|
Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 9, 2015 1:23:15 GMT
Forgive me for asking, I don't know if this has been addressed. Are we talking about player versus player battles here or player versus AI battles? Or player versus player versus AI? Or 8 players battling each other? Or are we talking limited minor skirmishes of player versus in-game tribes like the Astari and such? Also, question for FuriousMoo, have you ever played Populous the Beginning? If not, please give it a try soon before you start drawing up or finalizing your combat design plans. Very good point. Some clarification may be necessary before we prattle on about a mechanic without knowing more refined parameters of the discussion. Thanks, that's very useful to know. It'll help focus some of the discussion towards a more specific area (I think), thus resulting in something more closely aligned with your needs. Aside from playing Godus far enough into Weyworld to experience combat (though I'll likely forgo that and find some videos of it - time is precious and fleeting), I'm thinking I need to buff up on some other games to use as reference and inspiration, as well. |
|
|
|
Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 9, 2015 3:22:22 GMT
Forgive me for asking, I don't know if this has been addressed. Are we talking about player versus player battles here or player versus AI battles? Or player versus player versus AI? Or 8 players battling each other? Or are we talking limited minor skirmishes of player versus in-game tribes like the Astari and such? Also, question for FuriousMoo, have you ever played Populous the Beginning? If not, please give it a try soon before you start drawing up or finalizing your combat design plans. Very good point. Some clarification may be necessary before we prattle on about a mechanic without knowing more refined parameters of the discussion. Right now the focus player vs AI in a homeworld/weyworld environment. That's not to say a skirmish mode can't return, but in those instances I can apply special rules and restrictions that make it less of a problem to balance. And yes I have played Populus the Beginning. Was a few years ago last time I played and if I'm honest it didn't leave too much of an impression, but I do remember it feeling more like an rts that anything else. I'll have to have a refresher this weekend and see if there's any ideas worth stea.... err I mean being inspired by  |
|
|
|
Post by engarde on Jan 9, 2015 17:29:36 GMT
I've very limited interest in in-game combat at the minute level, by that I mean I'm supposed to be a god, so what care I if one group of individuals wins or not, aside from their win or loss might reflect or be reflected by whatever god powers I have (or can get) and how I can use them or what get out of the win or loss - yes I know that reads oddly - but hey...
So should my powers have an effect, absolutely but exactly why would I be interested in using for (or against) one side over the other?
If my followers are supposed to know there is something (me) which they jiggle about to when they have their little fountain dance or marvel at the land around them sculpting, then I think its reasonable that if they are getting their butts handed to them by a.n.other group that they might expect or at the least hope that I'd become involved.
However in my mind, it needs a massive overhaul of all the non-combat areas which is what makes it difficult to give any really useful suggestions, if we cannot change a/b/c/d/e... almost anything that already exists.
Foe me I'd prefer my sculpting power for example to be area based. I'd draw a square or rectangle or circle (or whatever) of effect and I'd raise or lower across that area. That power then if deployed in battle would unnerve or unsettle the oppositions so my guys (or their champions) would wade in.
when another player or AI is involved the god power in combat is that bait ans switch to distract either that opposing entity or unnerve their followers, more than zap FoG him, blam drop a meteor there.
However I'd also see my normal god involvement in game as a way of uncovering land, not that I cannot see - per our current greyed out bits, but maybe my sculpting an area draws my followers attention to there is something over that hill... which in a Fog of War type usage sees my new areas whatever I've done to them as the trigger point for followers to do what they currently do when I move a sand pixel one position or trigger a fountain festival. Same underlying metrics I suppose, I do something for them, their belief in me gives me more capability.
So taken to an extreme if they get 'emptied' in a combat event then I've left effectively winded until either they recover, or a new random group of followers manifests and with my help then rebuild that previous area is now ruined by that earlier defeat, much like currently we find existing fields or ruined temples.
I should still be able to limp along in game but suitable diminished in some way by that defeat - where just out of belief or something else.
I've not actually used archers yet, they were added after I'd killed off/integrated my astari in my PC game - in my android play through I've just landed in weyworld so I may get a bite at the combat by archers usage, but for now all I've done is build a couple of settlements and have them standing around doing very little.
|
|
|
|
Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 13, 2015 14:11:40 GMT
It seems the feedback has come to a end for this. I would suggest those participating try to raise questions about each other suggestions to get a discussion going. I'll be commenting when I can (my time is a bit stretched right now).
|
|
