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Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 14, 2015 2:59:19 GMT
How can we adapt meteor and finger of god (and balance any new powers) so that your own troops aren't completely redundant? Perhaps remove damage from the FoG mechanic, and use it only as a pointer (i.e. beacon) that designates where your followers should concentrate their aggressive actions; FoG a follower, they get sacrificed; FoG an enemy, your military followers attack them. FoG one of your follower Abodes, they dismantle it. FoG an enemy Abode, your military followers pillage it. Just a thought, it's obviously not perfect and would require some refining. Maybe the Meteor ability could be on a cooldown timer, so you can't spam attack with it; cooldown times can be reduced through cards/sticker bonuses. Also, there could be varying degrees of strength depending on how long you hold the button - either at the beginning or completion of the down-swipe - or upgrad the strength through cards/sticker bonuses. Meteor could start out being fairly underpowered with this system, and becomes greater throughout the game with certain upgrades; which would provide some variable choices in gameplay. (I had made a suggestion about utilizing stickers as a means to upgrade cards with bonuses and/or extra abilities, instead of as an unlocking mechanism. But, that's a conversation for another day) |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jan 14, 2015 3:06:12 GMT
Within the context of combat, these offensive god powers fit the role of air superiority. We effectively have perfect satellite reconnaissance and almost instant ordinance delivery. I only see two things to mitigate god power overpowering, either reducing its availability or having an important objective it can't accomplish. To continue the comparison, air power is intensely powerful in dominating a battlefield. It allows all sorts of bonuses for the army with superiority but is limited by an inability to control territory. The same goes for this situation. Without ground troops, the best a player can accomplish is create a dead zone.
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 14, 2015 6:17:45 GMT
Well, I thought swamping on death (under any offensive God power) of an enemy was a little too much as swamp kills to quickly unless you adjust the level so it weakens rather than kills and swamp would need to last quite some time, or even require something more special to reverse it like a purge(heal earth) brush that costs silly levels of belief like thousands per second. Followers/enemy struggle to walk through it, actively avoid it maybe and simply can no longer build on it. Rather than restricting using powers in battle you have to think about repercussions (when using it against enemies), like s**t they need help there but I'm not going to be able to mine there or build anything etc after. you could combine with use count and cool down on powers but I like the idea of you responsible for the land, not just the followers. So if I understand what you are suggesting correctly, is that you are offsetting the over-poweredness (huzzah for made up words!) of god powers by making them ruin land that the player might otherwise been able to use? But would that not be of advantage to the player as you would effectively be creating a barrier to hinder further enemy attacks? It feels to me that the drawback of polluting the land would be highly situational unless it happened very close to a players settlements. I like the concept of the player having to make a tough decision whether to release a destructive power because of the fallout it creates, how would you develop the idea so that it always has a cost that needs to be considered? As I said there would be a cost in time to clear it and cost of cleanup brush or a leap would be followers reclaim it or you can cast an expensive forest power which replaces/removes it? Maybe meteor+enemy leaves granite, maybe any meteor should deposit granite randomly? Maybe later into the game we get a card to easily remove granite (not comet) or even mine granite away?
If you block off the enemy they find a alternative route, if they can't get to you at all and you to them maybe that suits them (depends who started the war or whatever). But it will cost you expansion in that direction, it's a natural barrier (as long as they don't walk blindly into it or sit near it waiting for the next attack) I know the Astari don't really pathfind (direct because of their swimming and climbing) at the moment is that something we should be considering? |
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Post by eddiemonsta on Jan 14, 2015 10:24:00 GMT
How can we adapt meteor and finger of god (and balance any new powers) so that your own troops aren't completely redundant? God powers should only work in your own area of influence. For them to work on the enemy, your area of influence will need to overlap with theirs. That way, you always risk damaging/killing your own people when using the powers of destruction, and that would of course effect your own people's hapiness and belief generation, as well as potentially effecting their ability to gather resources. Your people should however be able to operate (of their own accord) outside of your area of influence, be it to gather reasources, explore, or even form raiding parties of their own. if this AoI was was somehow worked out from a "centre of belief" point of view with its size dependant upon population, you could quickly engage the enemy by making your people semi-nomadic and moving them across the map towards the enemy, but risk losing the battle by not having enough manpower. I think the balance comes from having your powers effect your own people in the exact same manner they effect the enemy. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 14, 2015 11:06:16 GMT
How can we adapt meteor and finger of god (and balance any new powers) so that your own troops aren't completely redundant? God powers should only work in your own area of influence. For them to work on the enemy, your area of influence will need to overlap with theirs. That way, you always risk damaging/killing your own people when using the powers of destruction, and that would of course effect your own people's hapiness and belief generation, as well as potentially effecting their ability to gather resources. Your people should however be able to operate (of their own accord) outside of your area of influence, be it to gather reasources, explore, or even form raiding parties of their own. if this AoI was was somehow worked out from a "centre of belief" point of view with its size dependant upon population, you could quickly engage the enemy by making your people semi-nomadic and moving them across the map towards the enemy, but risk losing the battle by not having enough manpower. I think the balance comes from having your powers effect your own people in the exact same manner they effect the enemy. This one has come up lots of times but I think AoI is not under current consideration (at least it not been mentioned) I suggested the same thing in another post |
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Post by eddiemonsta on Jan 14, 2015 11:44:12 GMT
This one has come up lots of times but I think AoI is not under current consideration (at least it not been mentioned) I suggested the same thing in another post Yeah, knew it wasn't an original concept but was just adding my two pence worth to the discussion. I remember reading a post by fabs (i think it was him) talking about AoI being created from two static points but don't remember if this was in the early builds. Be a shame if it was completely off the table as a concept for the game. |
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Post by nikink on Jan 14, 2015 11:47:31 GMT
I'd like something along the lines of: after the 3rd time your followers are attacked, they begin building walls around their settlements. That'd be neat. Of course as a God you could stop them, or destroy the wall. Note though: it's something the *Followers* do, not the God. Everything I want for the game revolves around Followers doing stuff independently, with the God able to punish or encourage those behaviours, and alter the finished product because, duh, God. Unfortunately the walls concept is dead end. We've tried them on settlements before and could never get them to work well with the terrain geometry. Nuts. Well, good to know! Thanks for replying and clarifying.  |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 14, 2015 17:34:16 GMT
How can we adapt meteor and finger of god (and balance any new powers) so that your own troops aren't completely redundant? Perhaps remove damage from the FoG mechanic, and use it only as a pointer (i.e. beacon) that designates where your followers should concentrate their aggressive actions; FoG a follower, they get sacrificed; FoG an enemy, your military followers attack them. FoG one of your follower Abodes, they dismantle it. FoG an enemy Abode, your military followers pillage it. Just a thought, it's obviously not perfect and would require some refining. Maybe the Meteor ability could be on a cooldown timer, so you can't spam attack with it; cooldown times can be reduced through cards/sticker bonuses. Also, there could be varying degrees of strength depending on how long you hold the button - either at the beginning or completion of the down-swipe - or upgrad the strength through cards/sticker bonuses. Meteor could start out being fairly underpowered with this system, and becomes greater throughout the game with certain upgrades; which would provide some variable choices in gameplay. (I had made a suggestion about utilizing stickers as a means to upgrade cards with bonuses and/or extra abilities, instead of as an unlocking mechanism. But, that's a conversation for another day) Like the FoG idea for multiuse, would like to see a meteor power decided by time of press on the ground at the location you want to hit but I guess we stuck with the swipe for meteors  |
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Post by FuriousMoo on Jan 14, 2015 17:52:19 GMT
Yeah I'm going to keep the swipe for meteors. I like that it's a bit inaccurate and difficult to judge (it's meant to be a nuke, not a scalpel). I'll admit it's better as a touch screen mechanic, but it works perfectly fine with a mouse too. The power of the meteor is currently determined by the length of the swipe you make so the variable strength mechanic is already working. There are min and max values for it's power and length of swipe determines where an individual meteor lies on that scale. These min and max values can be easily adjusted the only problem being that the greater the range between min and max the harder it is to judge how powerful a meteor will be when you launch it.
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 14, 2015 18:11:33 GMT
Yeah I'm going to keep the swipe for meteors. I like that it's a bit inaccurate and difficult to judge (it's meant to be a nuke, not a scalpel). I'll admit it's better as a touch screen mechanic, but it works perfectly fine with a mouse too. The power of the meteor is currently determined by the length of the swipe you make so the variable strength mechanic is already working. There are min and max values for it's power and length of swipe determines where an individual meteor lies on that scale. These min and max values can be easily adjusted the only problem being that the greater the range between min and max the harder it is to judge how powerful a meteor will be when you launch it. Really I only ever managed massive destruction with the new upgradable meteor, maybe I'll try that again. But it's not very clear that you can control it. Do you think there is any chance of a gods play ground map to trial test powers for free? |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jan 14, 2015 19:03:10 GMT
Yeah I'm going to keep the swipe for meteors. I like that it's a bit inaccurate and difficult to judge (it's meant to be a nuke, not a scalpel). I'll admit it's better as a touch screen mechanic, but it works perfectly fine with a mouse too. The power of the meteor is currently determined by the length of the swipe you make so the variable strength mechanic is already working. There are min and max values for it's power and length of swipe determines where an individual meteor lies on that scale. These min and max values can be easily adjusted the only problem being that the greater the range between min and max the harder it is to judge how powerful a meteor will be when you launch it. Really I only ever managed massive destruction with the new upgradable meteor, maybe I'll try that again. But it's not very clear that you can control it. Do you think there is any chance of a gods play ground map to trial test powers for free? I never knew that either. I don't think these sort of mechanics were ever fully explained to that level of detail. Would it be possible to have some kind of power scale/meter to help determine the strength based on the length of the swipe? It would provide the player a means with which to determine, after a few swipes, how far each swipe needs to be for how much power you want - right now it seems random guess work. All I ever get is massive destruction, or oddly just the trees burn - seemingly no in-between strength. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 14, 2015 20:51:11 GMT
So if I understand what you are suggesting correctly, is that you are offsetting the over-poweredness (huzzah for made up words!) of god powers by making them ruin land that the player might otherwise been able to use? But would that not be of advantage to the player as you would effectively be creating a barrier to hinder further enemy attacks? It feels to me that the drawback of polluting the land would be highly situational unless it happened very close to a players settlements. I like the concept of the player having to make a tough decision whether to release a destructive power because of the fallout it creates, how would you develop the idea so that it always has a cost that needs to be considered? As I said there would be a cost in time to clear it and cost of cleanup brush or a leap would be followers reclaim it or you can cast an expensive forest power which replaces/removes it? Maybe meteor+enemy leaves granite, maybe any meteor should deposit granite randomly? Maybe later into the game we get a card to easily remove granite (not comet) or even mine granite away?
If you block off the enemy they find a alternative route, if they can't get to you at all and you to them maybe that suits them (depends who started the war or whatever). But it will cost you expansion in that direction, it's a natural barrier (as long as they don't walk blindly into it or sit near it waiting for the next attack) I know the Astari don't really pathfind (direct because of their swimming and climbing) at the moment is that something we should be considering? With the lack of positive ways(Pit of doom) of getting gems maybe a meteor(dropped at any time) could deposit gem veins, that way we have a positive(mine gems) from the negatitve (no building)? Not sure of effect of Meteor on veins. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 14, 2015 21:21:32 GMT
As I said there would be a cost in time to clear it and cost of cleanup brush or a leap would be followers reclaim it or you can cast an expensive forest power which replaces/removes it? Maybe meteor+enemy leaves granite, maybe any meteor should deposit granite randomly? Maybe later into the game we get a card to easily remove granite (not comet) or even mine granite away?
If you block off the enemy they find a alternative route, if they can't get to you at all and you to them maybe that suits them (depends who started the war or whatever). But it will cost you expansion in that direction, it's a natural barrier (as long as they don't walk blindly into it or sit near it waiting for the next attack) I know the Astari don't really pathfind (direct because of their swimming and climbing) at the moment is that something we should be considering? With the lack of positive ways(Pit of doom) of getting gems maybe a meteor(dropped at any time) could deposit gem veins, that way we have a positive(mine gems) from the negatitve (no building)? Not sure of effect of Meteor on veins. The whole point is to get rid of gems, happiness, and belief and all the rest of the F2p mechanics. PC should not have in it. The POD was a way for PM to try to fake the PC game while it was clearly just a cheat around the gems and the F2p shop for PC. If there is no F2p, then no gems needed. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 14, 2015 22:05:55 GMT
With the lack of positive ways(Pit of doom) of getting gems maybe a meteor(dropped at any time) could deposit gem veins, that way we have a positive(mine gems) from the negatitve (no building)? Not sure of effect of Meteor on veins. The whole point is to get rid of gems, happiness, and belief and all the rest of the F2p mechanics. PC should not have in it. The POD was a way for PM to try to fake the PC game while it was clearly just a cheat around the gems and the F2p shop for PC. If there is no F2p, then no gems needed. That maybe true, but I don't think Moo will be removing gems anytime soon. |
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Post by hardly on Jan 14, 2015 22:13:25 GMT
Gems have to go and be replaced by a proper resource system.
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 14, 2015 22:40:27 GMT
Gems have to go and be replaced by a proper resource system. Agreed but unlikely right? Just trying to be pragmatic in the scope of the thread. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jan 14, 2015 22:47:11 GMT
I really hope that is on top of list.
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Post by hardly on Jan 14, 2015 23:36:30 GMT
Gems have to go and be replaced by a proper resource system. Agreed but unlikely right? Just trying to be pragmatic in the scope of the thread. I expect gems will go if the development continues. It's not going to be at the top of the list I don't think but they are quite easy to rip out. As a temporary measure you could just replace the cost of gems with belief and then substitute that later for new resources. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jan 14, 2015 23:38:58 GMT
How can we adapt meteor and finger of god (and balance any new powers) so that your own troops aren't completely redundant? Well, if you don't want the meteor and finger of god to make your followers obsolete in combat because you would easily overpower the enemy by yourself, the enemy should perhaps have some kind of defense against these powers. For example, a meteor shield that they could deploy that might stop some of the meteors you throw at them but not all of them. (perhaps they have an off-shore driller that looks like Bruce Willis  ) Another way to prevent the meteor from becoming too powerful might be to restrict the player in the the number of times per time unit they would have the ability to use the meteor. This is actually done quite well in Populous the Beginning where the more powerful powers take much longer to recharge than the weaker ones and the player also doesn't have the ability to accrue more than 1 of the most powerful spells at a time. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jan 14, 2015 23:51:13 GMT
How can we adapt meteor and finger of god (and balance any new powers) so that your own troops aren't completely redundant? Well, if you don't want the meteor and finger of god to make your followers obsolete in combat because you would easily overpower the enemy by yourself, the enemy should perhaps have some kind of defense against these powers. For example, a meteor shield that they could deploy that might stop some of the meteors you throw at them but not all of them. (perhaps they have an off-shore driller that looks like Bruce Willis ) Another way to prevent the meteor from becoming too powerful might be to restrict the player in the the number of times per time unit they would have the ability to use the meteor. This is actually done quite well in Populous the Beginning where the more powerful powers take much longer to recharge than the weaker ones and the player also doesn't have the ability to accrue more than 1 of the most powerful spells at a time. trying to recall but nothing in populous the beginning was as overpowered as meteors is in Godus? Volcano maybe? But that also relied on AOI for the shaman. |
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