|
Post by hardly on Feb 5, 2015 23:18:27 GMT
Furious Moo,
When the news broke that Peter, Jack and pretty much everyone else I knew the name of at 22Cans was either abandoning GODUS in favour of a new project or leaving the company for good, and that you were taking over lead design I thought that change had the potential to be a good thing. Less attention from Peter had to be good and I understood your intentions to include:
- Decoupling the PC version from Mobile and putting the PC version first
- Actually trying to make a good game that was fun to play on PC
- Engaging with the community and listening to what we say while obviously reserving the right to set the design direction in the best interests of the game
- Ultimately, but not immediately, presenting a vision for GODUS that we could sign up to and accept as a compromise.
I understood that things would proceed slowly, but it is better to proceed slowly in the right direction than to run the opposite way. I also understood that sacrifices would need to be made. Multiplayer/hubworld/Jupiter was clearly never going to work and for you to move GODUS back to the right path this would need to be cast aside. I was fine with the idea of making a good single player/sandbox game.
Now a month later I'm starting to worry that your efforts at leading the design of GODUS are simply a continuation of the failed cynical attitude that made GODUS the mess it is today. I'm worried that Peter is hiding behind you and your good name, all the while the development path continues to make GODUS worse and double down on what has come before (mobile crap). Your approach stinks of a combination of making token efforts to meet previous promises while throwing small amounts of content at mobile players to keep them investing. This leaves exactly zero time for actually addressing what is fundamentally wrong with the game.
The reasons I am concerned include:
- A lack of any vision, roadmap, direction, commitment to doing anything
- A seeming acceptance that much, if not all of the game will remain the same as it is now in the final release
- The writing of a story that presumably precludes significant changes and accepts the crapola that exists today
- Continued mobile shenanigans including stupid festivals, rewards, costumes, etc
- A seeming inability to stabilise the game and no commitments to fix the frequent losses of progress we suffer.
I want to trust you Moo, I really do and deep down I think you are an honest person that doesn't deserve to be damned by association with Peter but if you keep doing what you are doing that is exactly what is going to happen and in a shorter space of time than you might think.
Games tell a story, stories don't tell games. If the game is as bad as it is, the story will suck too because nothing happens, there are no challenges and there are no interesting interactions. The mechanics as they stand are a dead end. What I want to hear from you is are you actually going to try and make a decent PC game or is your mandate limited to placating us and mitigating Peter's legal risk from angry backers? If its the later I suggest Peter just take some money from the supposed 10s of millions of dollars 22Cans has made from GODUS and repay us all our kickstarter investment/purchase price. Because if you are the designer whose job it is to polish this turd and force it out the door in a woeful state - its complete guys, thanks for buying - then we will be very angry with Peter Molyneux, Jack Attridge and Konrad Naszynski. You are either working for the PC gaming community, creative merit and the sanctity of the indie/kickstarter/EA system or you are working to trash it. I suggest you think about this.
I understand a number of 22Cans staff have become disillusioned with Peter's leadership, perhaps it is time more people distanced themselves from someone who seems increasingly concerned with extracting money from vulnerable and trusting people (venturebeat.com/2015/02/03/from-console-to-mobile-game-designer-peter-molyneuxs-reinvention-journey-interview/) and completely disinterested from making products that actually benefit the people who buy them.
|
|
|
Post by Deth on Feb 6, 2015 2:30:28 GMT
Nothing personal against FuriousMoo. But from my view out side looking in. It is just another person that got roped into distracting us. From the interviews I still seeing coming out with Peter that there are two stories being passed around. That to the general public that know nothing about what has happened and that told to us, primary the kickstarter backers.
|
|
|
Post by FuriousMoo on Feb 6, 2015 3:07:54 GMT
You've made a lot of assumptions on my motivations despite me heading design for what's basically been 3 weeks. And just design mind you, I'm not the new Peter who can get things done by just saying so. Things are just moving slowly. A lot slower than I'd like tbh, it's somewhat frustrating. I still think of myself as a player first, professional developer second. I still put 30+ hrs a week into gaming despite a long working day and daily commute from London to Guildford.... I don't sleep much these days. I got into design because I felt that the best way to turn a game into what I actually wanted to play was by working on it myself. From the minute I played the alpha I could see the direction Godus was heading in and I didn't like it. It took half a year to develop contact with Peter personally before I was offered a design position (initially unpaid mind you, they weren't looking to fill a opening). Then another year working at 22cans to get to a position where I could get the chance to really influence the direction of Godus. I've had to be persistent, patient and not expect fast changes. Now, how far my influence actually extends despite what I have been told still remains to be seen.
So the fist half of Jan was completing the work for the Asia launch, had all sorts of issues with that because of a new account management system our mobile publisher is introducing. This had been scheduled for some time and was totally out of my hands. On top of that production was sorting itself out because of staff turn over. For the first real sprint of the new Godus team (which started mid Jan) I had to pick something straightforward because I knew we would be bogged down with re-organisation and under resourced. Hence the story. Which was actually pretty challenging because of what I actually had to work with in the game as it is now. If I had picked something like a resource system overhaul, I would have been told outright no.
As this was happening the decision makers in 22cans took notice and got involved. For a while it was looking pretty grim, there was a lot of pressure to just focus on maximizing revenue from mobile. Peter got involved and things started to turn around again. I've been in more meeting these last two weeks than I have in the last year. While we are still not done, the end is in sight and things are coming together. Essentially what's happening is this: We compiled a long broad list of things we can do to the game (both mobile focused and pc focused) with items made up from a combination of community feedback, kickstarter obligations, publisher requests and my own ideas. We then had to score them based on difficulty of task, resources required and cost against returns. There's a few things which are taken into consideration when deciding what the returns of any item would be; is it direct revenue (like more cosmetic items for mobile), is it something that could potentially get us a steam feature (and bring in pc revenue) or is it something that would improve the company reputation. Using this matrix we are slowly producing a plan for the year.
Quite frankly it's been exhausting, but I'm starting to feel cautiously optimistic. If I had it my way I wouldn't bother with mobile, not worry about cost and just work on improving the pc experience, but that's never going to happen. What is good is that a lot of the things I want to do, things that would improve the pc game, I can make a case for them based on improving the company reputation and increased chance of a steam feature placement. It's been reassuring that those two criteria are being taken seriously because like you I had concerns that they would be dismissed. There's things I can't talk about yet, but there are indications we will have more resources available in the next couple of months, perhaps as early as next sprint. Once this plan has been completed AND I get some assurances we'll have the necessary support to accomplish the tasks, we'll be making it public. When? Not sure, a week, maybe two, it's not up to me. If it doesn't pan out, well it won't be for the lack of my efforts.
Make no mistake though, I can't ignore mobile. It's the main source of revenue for the project and without it Godus is finished, simple as. You don't like the themed content and cosmetic stuff, but I absolutely love it and will be packing in as much as I possibly can. Why? Because it takes minimal time and effort on my part (setting up the Valentines days stuff took literally a couple of hours), no coding time and the art work is outsourced. A super easy win in terms of mobile maintenance freeing me up to do other things. And if I can adapt a pc feature into the mobile version, I'm certainly going to do that too. It's going to be a juggling act and I'm betting a lot of my pc only proposals are going to be shot down and there will be things I will be told to work on that won't contribute to improving pc. If that's the case I'm just going to state that outright when the time comes.
If all goes well we are due to start a more ambitious sprint on the 16th, but more on that next week.
|
|
|
Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 6, 2015 6:52:18 GMT
You may be operating this from a point of view of only 3 weeks. We're looking at this as a continuation of the same thing we've been dealing with for at least 1.5 years. Perhaps, it's time to jump over to the video thread and take a few hours watching (or rewatching as the case may be) the videos for a refresher. Take special note of everything from the AMA on (Update #40). That was the beginning of the worst of it. Every single one after that is lies piled on top of exaggeration, coupled to technicalities with little substance. We were never informed of what was really going on. Hubworld was billed as the answer to our complaints. We kept being told multiplayer was a few days off, or a week, or right around mobile release, or right after a hardening, or... At this stage, we've been patiently waiting since the 2.0 release for a serious attempt at working on the pc version. I referenced #40 specifically because that's when PM officially announced they were focused on mobile and they've never really shifted back. I don't care who's in charge at 22Cans. I don't care what 22Cans' funding concerns are. I don't care who you are, what your background is, or how much money you invested in the company. What I care about is seeing some results after all this time. As a customer, nothing else matters to me. That's why I paid money for Godus rather than form my own company and try to write the game myself. If I go into a restaurant and order a burger, I don't care if they've mismanaged things to the point where they can't afford the bun. I care that I paid for a burger and expect my burger or my money back. As an individual, I sympathize with your position but you're a representative of 22Cans and as such bear a responsibility to follow through on its obligations or make good on things. If it's not your responsibility, then the person that is needs to step out from behind the curtains and own up to things. In the meantime, you're the guy with the bulls-eye on your chest, and that's not our fault. At this point, it's crazy that the Godus project is trying to convince "management" of its viability when it's the paying customers that should be the focus of this. I've said it before and it's still just as true now, if 22Cans doesn't have the funds to dedicate itself to focusing people on the pc specific game now, it's never going to have it. The cash flow isn't going to get better over the next year. PC is tapped out and it's been released to all platforms and markets at this point. What we have to look forward to is a project that's steadily going to lose its financial backing while struggling to meet obligations it deferred until too late.
|
|
zeruelb
Junior Apprentice
Posts: 63
|
Post by zeruelb on Feb 6, 2015 8:40:31 GMT
if 22Cans doesn't have the funds to dedicate itself to focusing people on the pc specific game now, it's never going to have it. That were exactly my thoughts. It always seems as all kickstarter money went into Mobile Dev (and also the Provider money) while PC was just a hobby they compiled from the mobile sources in their spare time.
|
|
|
Post by militairensneuvelen on Feb 6, 2015 9:06:03 GMT
We even have "mobile" zoom levels in the PC version now. (can't zoom out as far anymore as I used to)
|
|
|
Post by distraction on Feb 6, 2015 9:49:04 GMT
(...) On top of that production was sorting itself out because of staff turn over. (...) so not only kristine has left but jemma too which means you have no produces left?!!!!!
|
|
Casinha
Master
Posts: 217
Pledge level: Partner
|
Post by Casinha on Feb 6, 2015 10:30:16 GMT
paying customers that should be the focus of this. Paying customers are the focus of this, customers that have already paid and are unlikely to pay more money are not (as can be evidenced by the only merit to improving PC version being potential revenue from new customers). There's nothing FuriousMoo can really do about it, so telling him you don't like is kind of like shouting into the wind. Not that I don't agree with you, of course. I suppose I'm just tired of it all, now. All of us had such high hopes for this game, but now I'm just finding it hard to care any more. It's money that I'm not getting back and if I can help with improving the game via feedback or offering a sounding board for ideas from the designer then wayhey, but at this point my expectations are ruined by men in suits smoking cigars going "phnar phnar" (that's totally what I imagine rich investors doing) while thinking of the money they can wring out from a dying cash cow. I can't really direct any frustrations at FuriousMoo 'cause he's as much a victim as any of us, if not more so given his backing the project before dedicating a hell of a lot of his time to trying to save a project that seems doomed. If anything I admire him for being able to look at what seems to me to be a pile of sand slipping through his fingers and saying "There must be something I can do with this."
|
|
|
Post by Crumpy Six on Feb 6, 2015 10:39:17 GMT
FuriousMoo, thanks for your considered and detailed response here. I know that you're genuinely trying to make a difference for Godus and it's refreshing to be given some honest information about what's going on in the studio, even when it isn't what we want to hear. I think at this point it's generally accepted that we're never going to like the reality of what is going on at 22Cans, so that's nothing new. It is definitely a positive change that someone at 22Cans is prepared to actually share this kind of information with us. From the community perspective 22Cans is, for the most part, a black box that is entirely inactive 95% of the time but occasionally does strange, infuriating and illogical things. It's almost impossible for us to sympathise with people like you and Dave without understanding some of the inner-workings. So when you're open with us like this it's really helpful for us.
Regarding the extent of your influence at 22Cans: I think this is partly what Matthew and George found so frustrating in their capacity as community managers. They were brought in to help with 22Cans reputation and to get the community back on-side, but they weren't given the resources to achieve this. They were also constantly being undermined by PM making decisions and announcements without involving them at all, and PM (or other "decision-makers" that you allude to) blatantly ignoring and contradicting their efforts. Consequently, who gets vilified by the community? The CMs, for apparently lying to us and being utterly ineffectual. And as professional company representatives, they can't really turn around and say "it's not MY fault, my colleagues screwed me over" even though that is obviously what happened.
A focus on mobile for the revenue is inevitable. I do wonder though, is Godus even a good mobile game? Maybe if it was actually a good mobile game the backlash wouldn't be quite what it is. I dunno. That's a matter of the bottom line, really. In a recent interview PM boldly claimed that Godus is making "tens of thousands of dollars a day" and that, to date, it has made "tens of millions of dollars". If this is true, is there really that much pressure on mobile right now? Maybe 22Cans could use the first 10 million dollars to work on the Trail, and then dedicate the second 10 million dollars half-and-half between mobile and PC development for Godus..? The initial Kickstarter was for like 500k, I'd have thought with 5 million dollars you could hire a massive team and do whatever.
Just kidding of course, we all know 22Cans doesn't have tens of millions of dollars. What a fucking joke. But this is what PM has been spewing in interviews, so you might want to casually ask this question next time someone talks about resource limitations.
|
|
|
Post by Spiderweb on Feb 6, 2015 13:22:51 GMT
Personally I given up long ago seeing a game that matched the kickstarter pledges (I'm not s KS backer anyway), but I did base buying the game in early access on that. As far as I'm concerned I've got my £15 worth of play from it (albeit a little boring) but would still like to see this game completed. Hence the reason I bother to post.
I have never wanted or requested a refund and never will, but will stop putting efforts into posting when I feel 22cans have decided not to make anymore effort. Thats why all I've requested is clarity on where 22cans is headed with Godus. Are they going to finish the story/eras/battles/wildlife promises, then it might be worth a play through I've played plenty of worse games over the last 25 years.
I have lost faith in what Peter Molyneux says (never heard about prior over promising until Godus) but I won't buy another PM game without it being fully released and mostly positive reviews. I must says I'm also disgusted morally by he latest interview in which he says he is trying to find the right monitization model to extract our money via free to pay. In my opinion free to pay plus paywalls is the worst thing to come out of mobile gaming.
|
|
Casinha
Master
Posts: 217
Pledge level: Partner
|
Post by Casinha on Feb 6, 2015 14:01:17 GMT
I'm also disgusted morally by he latest interview in which he says he is trying to find the right monitization model to extract our money via free to pay. That interview actually scared me a little with his sounding excited at figuring out the mechanics of extracting money from people that are too distracted by "fun" to notice they're spending money. Just waiting for him to take the final jump and open a casino.
|
|
|
Post by Deth on Feb 6, 2015 14:09:55 GMT
That interview actually scared me a little with his sounding excited at figuring out the mechanics of extracting money from people that are too distracted by "fun" to notice they're spending money. Just waiting for him to take the final jump and open a casino. He does have a morbid fascination with milking whales for all the money he can does he not? He just feel so left out from all those companies that turned themselves around going form a sub fee to f2p.
|
|
|
Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 6, 2015 15:46:29 GMT
That interview actually scared me a little with his sounding excited at figuring out the mechanics of extracting money from people that are too distracted by "fun" to notice they're spending money. Just waiting for him to take the final jump and open a casino. He does have a morbid fascination with milking whales for all the money he can does he not? He just feel so left out from all those companies that turned themselves around going form a sub fee to f2p. That interview was bizarre and shockingly eye-opening, showing a truer side of Peter that I only suspected existed, and hoped I was wrong. At least, that's how many people are interpreting these articles and videos. Maybe it's a misinterpretation, or a misrepresentation of the truth (via journalistic bias or sensationalism), but I doubt it's the media making him into a deluded, ex-visionary, gone mad with power. It really appears tbat this is the real Peter Molyneaux. The Peter in the most recent interviews seems almost possessed and without ethical emotion. The PM we're seeing has his golden, gemstone encrusted blinders on; it's all about money now (and presumably alawys has been). Not providing a quality product. Not creating customer loyalty. Just money. And the amazing part is that apparently he's become so bold and brazen, and deluded by a warped sense of reality - flaunting his immense ego and inane greed - that he actually had the balls to admit that he wants to create a way to passively extract customer's wallets from thier pockets; reading his statement over a few times, it's clear he's hoping to exploit naive or nostalgic people and take their money without them knowing or realising it's happening. That's just preposterously vile, all but proving this man is corrupted and not to be trusted. Maybe we're misreading all of this. Or maybe he's playing everyone - gamers, journaists, and stockholders alike - and has some heretofore hidden agenda that will revolutionise the gaming industry - and the world - and mark him as as certified visionary genius; but I think not, though I think that's how he sees himself. Maybe he's been replaced by a robot or clone, controlled by the New World Order, and the real PM died years ago, or perhaps is locked away in a floating prison barge. Maybe all of this is a really bad dream. Maybe I'm wrong about all this (I can only wish). But, at least FuriousMoo isn't Peter... Or is he?
|
|
|
Post by Monkeythumbz on Feb 6, 2015 19:00:50 GMT
Best of luck Konrad, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you!
Re: Production, I'd imagine that now falls to Kyreal (aka Andy).
|
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Feb 6, 2015 22:03:38 GMT
Best of luck Konrad, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you! Re: Production, I'd imagine that now falls to Kyreal (aka Andy). Is that a confirmation that Jemma is gone too?
|
|
|
Post by FuriousMoo on Feb 6, 2015 22:22:39 GMT
Yeah, currently we have two producers and I think a third has just been hired in the last week or so, but hasn't started yet.
|
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Feb 7, 2015 20:12:09 GMT
So how many people who where part of 22cans during the development of godus have now left in total?
I've heard a rumour that Jack will also be leaving.
|
|
|
Post by FuriousMoo on Feb 8, 2015 17:39:30 GMT
Best of luck Konrad, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you! Re: Production, I'd imagine that now falls to Kyreal (aka Andy). What are you sill doing lurking around here George? Missing the game industry yet?
|
|
|
Post by hardly on Feb 8, 2015 18:04:02 GMT
Best of luck Konrad, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you! Re: Production, I'd imagine that now falls to Kyreal (aka Andy). What are you sill doing lurking around here George? Missing the game industry yet? Further evidence of the addictive nature of "Forums".
|
|
|
Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 8, 2015 18:07:22 GMT
Best of luck Konrad, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you! Re: Production, I'd imagine that now falls to Kyreal (aka Andy). What are you sill doing lurking around here George? Missing the game industry yet? He just can't stop thinking about all the fun he had here with all of us. I think we're all crossing our fingers for Konrad and the rest.
|
|