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Post by hardly on Feb 10, 2015 3:33:10 GMT
I think it's unfortunate how Moo's comments, which provide easy pickings for the media, have become front a centre. Really these just acknowledged a reality that Peter created and I would really like to see more focus on him as the one that promised a lot in terms of putting PC first but then never really tried to deliver. The biggest problem with picking up a steaming pile of poo is that you get it all over your hands. The only thing that's truly significant about Moo's statements is that we usually have to wait months to find this information out the hard way rather than just hear it straight. PM is still running this show, he's just placed a new person front and center to take the brunt of our continued dissatisfaction. While I'd like to believe that he got the position out of merit, it's hard to believe someone with more experience didn't opt to step in and take charge. This situation is slightly better than propping up an intern as head of the project. Trying to make this some sort of Cinderella story doesn't change just how implausible a walk-in with little experience went from intern to head developer in less than 2 years, bypassing at least a dozen other employees to get the position. Either it's a largely symbolic title or Moo's a savant that's way under-utilized. First of all I think Jack by comparison had experience in sound design or something before he joined so Moo is hardly worse off. Plus in the way he has written he clearly understands game design. I don't think he's an bad fit for the job at all but you are right Peter basically handed him a big bucket of feces and said see what you can do with this. If people have time we should follow up with authors talking about things like: • Jupiter/Hubworld • the shop controversy and the pit of doom • mobile porting to PC and low system requirements • God of gods • extreme delays in development (already covered really) • PC slave to F2P in terms of timers and other shitty frustration mechanics • Touch interface • Lack of gameplay/challenge other than waiting and discomfort of sculpting • refusal to produce/release design docs even though they promised these in kickstarter Someone should write to RPS about the design doc being a kickstarter reward but peter having no intention of doing one. Oh and let's give them SamVT's details. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 10, 2015 4:06:54 GMT
The cat is certainly out of the bag now. It's unfortunate that Moo's words are getting tossed around, however, I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing; he's now known and showing a whole lot more candor and tact than Peter ever did. I have high regard for Moo's tenacity, and his honesty about the situation is respectable. He deserves praise for being the one to step up, grab a handful of poo, and do his damnedest to clean it up. It does seem like Peter may have thrown him out in front to take the brunt of tomatoes in the face, but it didn't quite work. I'd like to see some follow up articles on the points hardly lists above. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 10, 2015 4:16:37 GMT
The biggest problem with picking up a steaming pile of poo is that you get it all over your hands. The only thing that's truly significant about Moo's statements is that we usually have to wait months to find this information out the hard way rather than just hear it straight. PM is still running this show, he's just placed a new person front and center to take the brunt of our continued dissatisfaction. While I'd like to believe that he got the position out of merit, it's hard to believe someone with more experience didn't opt to step in and take charge. This situation is slightly better than propping up an intern as head of the project. Trying to make this some sort of Cinderella story doesn't change just how implausible a walk-in with little experience went from intern to head developer in less than 2 years, bypassing at least a dozen other employees to get the position. Either it's a largely symbolic title or Moo's a savant that's way under-utilized. First of all I think Jack by comparison had experience in sound design or something before he joined so Moo is hardly worse off. Plus in the way he has written he clearly understands game design. I don't think he's an bad fit for the job at all but you are right Peter basically handed him a big bucket of feces and said see what you can do with this. A lot of people have speculated about Jack's qualifications and position since day one. Everything about him comes off as PM's yes-man and is part of the reason I'm so confused about 22Cans' employment setup. Going from intern to head developer in a year isn't something that just happens without special circumstances. It's not an entry-level position. Unless all the old employees jumped ship, there are at least a half dozen people more qualified to step up before a newly rolled-over intern. Why none were tasked is a huge red flag for the project. If you have a floundering project, you don't grab the least qualified and experienced guy on staff and toss them into a leadership position. You find someone that has the best background and qualifications that back up his/her experience to optimize the project's chances. At best, this situation smacks of desperate shuffling rather than calculated maneuvering. This whole situation feels like the plot to a really cheesy football movie. In the real world, letting the water boy run the last play isn't generally going to result in a game-winning touchdown. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Feb 10, 2015 7:15:33 GMT
First of all I think Jack by comparison had experience in sound design or something before he joined so Moo is hardly worse off. Plus in the way he has written he clearly understands game design. I don't think he's an bad fit for the job at all but you are right Peter basically handed him a big bucket of feces and said see what you can do with this. A lot of people have speculated about Jack's qualifications and position since day one. Everything about him comes off as PM's yes-man and is part of the reason I'm so confused about 22Cans' employment setup. Going from intern to head developer in a year isn't something that just happens without special circumstances. It's not an entry-level position. Unless all the old employees jumped ship, there are at least a half dozen people more qualified to step up before a newly rolled-over intern. Why none were tasked is a huge red flag for the project. If you have a floundering project, you don't grab the least qualified and experienced guy on staff and toss them into a leadership position. You find someone that has the best background and qualifications that back up his/her experience to optimize the project's chances. At best, this situation smacks of desperate shuffling rather than calculated maneuvering. This whole situation feels like the plot to a really cheesy football movie. In the real world, letting the water boy run the last play isn't generally going to result in a game-winning touchdown. On a positive note, maybe Peter will push more resource on to Godus ASAP to get some positive results? Probably not but I am an optimist. |
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Post by hardly on Feb 10, 2015 7:31:08 GMT
A lot of people have speculated about Jack's qualifications and position since day one. Everything about him comes off as PM's yes-man and is part of the reason I'm so confused about 22Cans' employment setup. Going from intern to head developer in a year isn't something that just happens without special circumstances. It's not an entry-level position. Unless all the old employees jumped ship, there are at least a half dozen people more qualified to step up before a newly rolled-over intern. Why none were tasked is a huge red flag for the project. If you have a floundering project, you don't grab the least qualified and experienced guy on staff and toss them into a leadership position. You find someone that has the best background and qualifications that back up his/her experience to optimize the project's chances. At best, this situation smacks of desperate shuffling rather than calculated maneuvering. This whole situation feels like the plot to a really cheesy football movie. In the real world, letting the water boy run the last play isn't generally going to result in a game-winning touchdown. On a positive note, maybe Peter will push more resource on to Godus ASAP to get some positive results? Probably not but I am an optimist. Unfortunately I don't think they can get positive results. To do so would require a big shift in content and they don't have the resources to do that. Its possible that if Moo can get a direction of change going that demonstrates to us that he can move the game in the right direction we might start building positive support but I just don't think Peter has green lit the resources to do that kind of fundamental work. Only time will tell.
The other problem is they have been selling the game so cheap they've reduced their ability to make future revenue off steam. I discussed the wisdom of 75% sales back here for this very reason:
godus.boards.net/thread/354/wisdom-discounting-godus
When someone like Moo comes along and actually tries to make PC Godus good, they cant justify it because they've already exhausted the market at $5 a unit, where a later sale could have been realised for $20.
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Post by Spiderweb on Feb 10, 2015 8:25:53 GMT
On a positive note, maybe Peter will push more resource on to Godus ASAP to get some positive results? Probably not but I am an optimist. Unfortunately I don't think they can get positive results. To do so would require a big shift in content and they don't have the resources to do that. Its possible that if Moo can get a direction of change going that demonstrates to us that he can move the game in the right direction we might start building positive support but I just don't think Peter has green lit the resources to do that kind of fundamental work. Only time will tell.
The other problem is they have been selling the game so cheap they've reduced their ability to make future revenue off steam. I discussed the wisdom of 75% sales back here for this very reason:
godus.boards.net/thread/354/wisdom-discounting-godus
When someone like Moo comes along and actually tries to make PC Godus good, they cant justify it because they've already exhausted the market at $5 a unit, where a later sale could have been realised for $20.
Interesting, I wonder how many people buy SEA titles and how many wait for full release, whether there are buyers left or not. This for me was my first foray into SEA and probably last (at least without massively positive reviews). I did it out of interest to see the game evolve, and offer feedback (originally) , I think I'm one of the few who was not bothered about getting my £15 back(I saw it as a gamble-I lost), I played hours of Godus (more time than I spent in more expensive titles) and got involved in the forums (never bothered before). My opinion of Peter has changed for the worse and I really do feel for the kickstarter backers. I almost walked away but was enjoying this forum. I hope these articles don't make 22cans withdraw. |
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Post by hardly on Feb 10, 2015 8:35:56 GMT
I have a few friends (at least 3) who would buy on my recommendation but the game would have to improve immensely for me to do that.
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Post by Spiderweb on Feb 10, 2015 9:32:58 GMT
I have a few friends (at least 3) who would buy on my recommendation but the game would have to improve immensely for me to do that. Right I have a few people I would usually recommend games to, I have not recommended Godus. I suppose if that changed and everyone playing it said "you should check it out" they could theoretically still be a massive market out there (look at minecraft). |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 10, 2015 9:36:39 GMT
A lot of people have speculated about Jack's qualifications and position since day one. Everything about him comes off as PM's yes-man and is part of the reason I'm so confused about 22Cans' employment setup. Going from intern to head developer in a year isn't something that just happens without special circumstances. It's not an entry-level position. Unless all the old employees jumped ship, there are at least a half dozen people more qualified to step up before a newly rolled-over intern. Why none were tasked is a huge red flag for the project. If you have a floundering project, you don't grab the least qualified and experienced guy on staff and toss them into a leadership position. You find someone that has the best background and qualifications that back up his/her experience to optimize the project's chances. At best, this situation smacks of desperate shuffling rather than calculated maneuvering. This whole situation feels like the plot to a really cheesy football movie. In the real world, letting the water boy run the last play isn't generally going to result in a game-winning touchdown. On a positive note, maybe Peter will push more resource on to Godus ASAP to get some positive results? Probably not but I am an optimist. As long as they leave the sticker chest mechanic alone, there is no hope for this game. If they can't address the cheapest, sloppiest, and most reviled feature of Godus, there's no way they're going to be able to turn the project around. If they can't do it now, there's never going to be a better time for them to do so. All adding in a story is going to do is lock the game harder onto rails. As if it wasn't restrictive enough. Then, we have the idea of incorporating combat into a game we still can't lose. At least with the vaporware ideas about Hubworld, there was some point to having combat. I'd love to hear some serious discussion about objectives, win/loss, and advancement. Instead, we have additional features being tacked on without concern for what purpose they serve, what enjoyment they might bring, or if they even work with the mechanics involved. Instead, we have a "fresh" vision of the game (though PM has not given up his vision of how Godus should be) and a lot of nebulous plans for the future. I don't see any pressure changing that without them adding more people to the team. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Feb 10, 2015 9:42:50 GMT
On a positive note, maybe Peter will push more resource on to Godus ASAP to get some positive results? Probably not but I am an optimist. As long as they leave the sticker chest mechanic alone, there is no hope for this game. If they can't address the cheapest, sloppiest, and most reviled feature of Godus, there's no way they're going to be able to turn the project around. If they can't do it now, there's never going to be a better time for them to do so. All adding in a story is going to do is lock the game harder onto rails. As if it wasn't restrictive enough. Then, we have the idea of incorporating combat into a game we still can't lose. At least with the vaporware ideas about Hubworld, there was some point to having combat. I'd love to hear some serious discussion about objectives, win/loss, and advancement. Instead, we have additional features being tacked on without concern for what purpose they serve, what enjoyment they might bring, or if they even work with the mechanics involved. Instead, we have a "fresh" vision of the game (though PM has not given up his vision of how Godus should be) and a lot of nebulous plans for the future. I don't see any pressure changing that without them adding more people to the team. There must of been network coders for hubworld development where have they gone? Working on The Trail? |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 10, 2015 10:13:28 GMT
As long as they leave the sticker chest mechanic alone, there is no hope for this game. If they can't address the cheapest, sloppiest, and most reviled feature of Godus, there's no way they're going to be able to turn the project around. If they can't do it now, there's never going to be a better time for them to do so. All adding in a story is going to do is lock the game harder onto rails. As if it wasn't restrictive enough. Then, we have the idea of incorporating combat into a game we still can't lose. At least with the vaporware ideas about Hubworld, there was some point to having combat. I'd love to hear some serious discussion about objectives, win/loss, and advancement. Instead, we have additional features being tacked on without concern for what purpose they serve, what enjoyment they might bring, or if they even work with the mechanics involved. Instead, we have a "fresh" vision of the game (though PM has not given up his vision of how Godus should be) and a lot of nebulous plans for the future. I don't see any pressure changing that without them adding more people to the team. There must of been network coders for hubworld development where have they gone? Working on The Trail? Most likely. I actually just finished going back through that excuse video and realized that it pretty much confirms the size of the new team. PM mentions in one spot that Konrad and Pavle are within arm's reach if they need help. It's the closest to confirmation that they've pared things down to two guys. The only way they could remove any more resources from the project is if they kicked the "team" out of the office and made them work on the streets. Essentially, it sounds like there's one mobile and one pc developer left. Claiming dedication to this project has to be the most blatant misrepresentation of reality we've heard from this company. PM also claimed we could email him directly to point out our dissatisfaction. Yet again, we have a bold statement backed by nothing. His personal email isn't public and it appears reporters are getting bounced messages from their accounts. Plus, with all the crap we've heard about his dyslexia, I'm really not sure why he wanted to throw down that gauntlet. In all likelihood, we'd have a better chance of having our messages read if we emailed straight into a spam folder. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 12:40:54 GMT
There must of been network coders for hubworld development where have they gone? Working on The Trail? Most likely. I actually just finished going back through that excuse video and realized that it pretty much confirms the size of the new team. PM mentions in one spot that Konrad and Pavle are within arm's reach if they need help. It's the closest to confirmation that they've pared things down to two guys. The only way they could remove any more resources from the project is if they kicked the "team" out of the office and made them work on the streets. Essentially, it sounds like there's one mobile and one pc developer left. Claiming dedication to this project has to be the most blatant misrepresentation of reality we've heard from this company. PM also claimed we could email him directly to point out our dissatisfaction. Yet again, we have a bold statement backed by nothing. His personal email isn't public and it appears reporters are getting bounced messages from their accounts. Plus, with all the crap we've heard about his dyslexia, I'm really not sure why he wanted to throw down that gauntlet. In all likelihood, we'd have a better chance of having our messages read if we emailed straight into a spam folder. I don't think the size of the Team is the Problem. Even a small Team could have made a great god game. Maybe not with something like a Jupiter sized World.  And that's the sad part, i think there a talented programmers, artists and even the new designer looks like he knows what a good game looks like. But the decisions o the people in charge, in the past and right now, (may it be design, finance department or something else) lead us to a point where we have a game that, in my opinion, will never be a good pc godgame game. Maybe we get a story, some new features or many cosmetics but the core of the game is broken. As much as i appreciate FuriosMoos take over of the Project and effort trying to make Godus to something like a game, i can't see it ever happen. Godus is not a pc game, it's build for mobile, in fact i am sure the complete rework from 2013 even cemented this f2p core.
As i said, it's not that i think the programmers are bad or FuriousMo is a bad designer (In fact i think i would back them if they said they formed a small indy studio amd would come up with a good, believable concept for a god game on Kickstarter), but the decision makers have their focus on "The trail", Godus (mobile) only purpose right now is to make some money to finance production on the trail - as it was the purpose of Godus PC for Godus Mobile. It's a hopeless "trail" leading to total frustration of us and any 22cans dev who is unhappy with the direction PC Godus development took.
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Post by Deth on Feb 10, 2015 12:59:13 GMT
My only real problem with Moo is, for a backer, he said he does not know a lot of what has gone on before, does not know Peters plans. Knowing how much Peter has drifted from his Kickstarter promises, maybe that is not such a reach. But also maybe that is why he was picked is because he has kept his head down and does not know what has been going on from a community side so is a good neutral party to stick in the job?
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 10, 2015 16:54:25 GMT
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Post by Deth on Feb 10, 2015 17:14:51 GMT
LOL I love LazyGamers picture at the top of the articles. Well Looking at the Kickstarter The Apple Icon is first. I know it is a stretch, but what is not with what he has promised, but that could be taken as IOS first then PC and Peter never cleared up the miss-conception.
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Post by darkmoondragon on Feb 10, 2015 18:08:37 GMT
This whole thing is really sad. The more I read and learn, the more I get the feeling that Moo is basically a decent guy who wandered into a mess not of his own making. The media is very adept at getting facts wrong and focusing on some things and completely ignoring others. If there was an intention to set Moo up as some kind of fall guy it ain't gonna work with me. I've never been a fan of broadly applied group guilt.
All IMHO, from a player who wasn't there at the start. There are a lot of good people here on this forum. It's unfortunate that you were all put through this.
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Post by hardly on Feb 10, 2015 18:32:35 GMT
My favourite quote: "So once again – and really, this shouldn’t come as much of a surprise to anyone – Peter Molyneux is unable to deliver on his promises. It’s all made more egregious by the fact that instead of even attempting to fulfil his end of the bargain, Molyneux is instead chasing more hopeless dreams – by making another game." Also in the article about people leaving, I presume the person striking out on their own is Jack? Does anybody have any insight on that? How do you strike out on your own when you niche is to be somebody's bitch? |
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Post by hardly on Feb 10, 2015 20:05:02 GMT
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Post by Spiderweb on Feb 10, 2015 20:26:39 GMT
Looks like a lot of fire fighting ahead for Peter and less time for the trail. |
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Post by hardly on Feb 10, 2015 20:36:46 GMT
Looks like a lot of fire fighting ahead for Peter and less time for the trail. Maybe, but when you think about it none of this will impact the viability of the trail. Nobody "buying" the trail on the App Store will Google GODUS or peter Molyneux. It will be F2P so they'll just try it. The best we can hope for is that this sorry saga will inoculate the pc community against getting fooled again. |
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And that's the sad part, i think there a talented programmers, artists and even the new designer looks like he knows what a good game looks like. But the decisions o the people in charge, in the past and right now, (may it be design, finance department or something else) lead us to a point where we have a game that, in my opinion, will never be a good pc godgame game. Maybe we get a story, some new features or many cosmetics but the core of the game is broken. As much as i appreciate FuriosMoos take over of the Project and effort trying to make Godus to something like a game, i can't see it ever happen. Godus is not a pc game, it's build for mobile, in fact i am sure the complete rework from 2013 even cemented this f2p core. 
