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Post by hardly on Feb 15, 2015 0:02:44 GMT
I think this post is important enough to bring over from the open board. Has details on the names Peter listed in the RPS interview. This is the perfect example of why he cant be trusted. godus.boards.net/post/16166
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 15, 2015 2:51:42 GMT
Yes, i think he is very good in doing interviews. That's something i thought back when Early Access was released. He made some interviews on Gamescom (in a Hotel room), i remember me thinking that he took over the interview and managed to show them only the things he wanted to show and most didn't even try to ask questions that would have brought him to distress. I think only one of the interviewers even noticed the shop button but he managed to completly bypass the question and make him forget about it for the rest of the interview. My impression was that couldn't be luck. He had almost nothig to show there but everyone thought they had seen the next blockbuster game with dynamic rivers (which were only in for the interviews) - instead they saw a mobile f2p game with a shop. He did it again half a year later, when the first mobile version came out. Yes, he says he is bat at press/PR but when you examine the exchanges compared to what came before and what comes after you realise he almost always successfully manipulates the interviewer/reader. You can see him trying in John's article but the difference here is John cuts him off. Every time we had an interview released last year, he would say the same garbage. He would claim to be bad at PR. He would bemoan his horrid reputation. Then, he would use both as a shield while he made stuff up about what was going on with the project. I repeatedly called this crap out in the Steam forums because he didn't have to be 22Cans' spokesman. If he's so bad, have someone else do it. Heck, I said as much and speculated he prefers videos because he is such a manipulative person in video. That's where I was given the "he's severely dyslexic" excuse. A few weeks later, we were having an AMA with him. The man uses whatever excuse to sidestep criticism and deflect attention to the important facts. If he was making a character of himself in an rpg, he'd be the the type that took the dyslexic disadvantage and then turned around and tried to convince the GM to let him have illiterate as well. He might even couple it with a "Hates books" disadvantage as well. You know, the sort of player that exploits things like "blind" and "afraid of the dark" by negating it with having sonar hearing.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 15, 2015 2:55:10 GMT
I think this post is important enough to bring over from the open board. Has details on the names Peter listed in the RPS interview. This is the perfect example of why he cant be trusted. godus.boards.net/post/16166Wow, that's fantastic clarification of what I'd already been speculating on over on the Steam forums.
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Post by hardly on Feb 15, 2015 3:08:16 GMT
I think this post is important enough to bring over from the open board. Has details on the names Peter listed in the RPS interview. This is the perfect example of why he cant be trusted. godus.boards.net/post/16166Wow, that's fantastic clarification of what I'd already been speculating on over on the Steam forums. Its fair to say though we do know Fabs has moved over and wasn't on that list. Its therefore possible there are others Peter missed who are working on GODUS.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 15, 2015 3:14:59 GMT
Wow, that's fantastic clarification of what I'd already been speculating on over on the Steam forums. Its fair to say though we do know Fabs has moved over and wasn't on that list. Its therefore possible there are others Peter missed who are working on GODUS. The problem is that it tracks with what PM said in their response video, where he mentioned Pavle and Konrad being free to ask for help. Also, it tracks with the "daily dev" updates, where the only additional person to the list is Fabs. With how he got put back on the project, Fabs is likely on as a temporary PR bandaid. Seeing how this is being handled, it would be SOP to pull him back off once the heat dies down, assuming it does.
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Post by hardly on Feb 15, 2015 3:22:17 GMT
Its fair to say though we do know Fabs has moved over and wasn't on that list. Its therefore possible there are others Peter missed who are working on GODUS. The problem is that it tracks with what PM said in their response video, where he mentioned Pavle and Konrad being free to ask for help. Also, it tracks with the "daily dev" updates, where the only additional person to the list is Fabs. With how he got put back on the project, Fabs is likely on as a temporary PR bandaid. Seeing how this is being handled, it would be SOP to pull him back off once the heat dies down, assuming it does.
Despite the interviews, despite the crying and the apologies, we still have no clarity on:
- How many people are working on GODUS
- What the game will look like when its done
- When multiplayer and other critical elements will be complete
- When Bryan will be paid.
Amazingly Peter has indicated that the time to finish GODUS is => the time he estimated in the kickstarter. Despite the efforts of the gaming media to get information, the job is not finished.
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Post by hardly on Feb 15, 2015 3:36:28 GMT
One of the other funny things people pointed out in a thread was that Peter has this calculation he to explain why the money ran out and he had to get a publisher. Its pretty simple - time x number of people x average salary = ? But the simplicity of the calculation directly contradicts his statements that he couldn't possibly be expected to know that he would run out of money and that he asked for too little.
Peter: ....You do the maths, it’s that simple – you can do this math, we had 22 people here. If you take the average salary for someone in the industry, which must be about £30k, that’s 22 people, multiplied by £30k, divided by 12. You work out how many months Kickstarter money gives us.
Maybe I'm making too much of this? Steam early access was when? September? So that is about 9 months, wouldn't it have been better to squeeze through until then when they got a massive injection of money without signing with a publisher?
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 15, 2015 4:39:15 GMT
One of the other funny things people pointed out in a thread was that Peter has this calculation he to explain why the money ran out and he had to get a publisher. Its pretty simple - time x number of people x average salary = ? But the simplicity of the calculation directly contradicts his statements that he couldn't possibly be expected to know that he would run out of money and that he asked for too little. Yeah, it's a pretty classic dodge. In testing, we look at the boundary issues of a situation. It brings up simple questions like this: Do we know the minimum value for this number? Do we know the maximum value for this number? How does the minimum value and the expected amount mesh? If the minimum isn't met, how is this handled? PM claims that they couldn't know the minimum. They put out an expected value but claim that they knew it was below the minimum from past experience. This is a logical flaw. In order to make the second judgement, they had to know a general amount for minimum. Even if it was off, they had a ballpark figure. Peter tried to play both sides of this in the RPS interview and was called on it, but many didn't pick up on that. Assuming they didn't know the minimum but they knew the expected amount wasn't going to be sufficient (let's not run in circles trying to figure out how they could come to that possiblity), let's look at their plan for handling the inevitable funding issues. According to their Kickstarter they had no plan for handling it when it went green. Kickstarter rules state that a project must have a reasonable expectation of being completed with the funding asked for. The specific statement (as of the KS site right now) is that "every project needs a plan for creating something and sharing it with the world." According to PM's own statements in the RPS article, he provided backers with, at best, only a small portion of a plan. He didn't just think he might not have enough funding but knew it. He didn't tell his backers this problem. And, most importantly, he knew he was misleading people with both his funding needs and timeline before his Kickstarter went green. IT IS IRRELEVANT HOW HE HANDLED FUNDING POST KICKSTARTER GREEN DATE. He was in breach long before that. Just knowing his history, Konrad brings up another problem with this whole narrative. When did he start getting paid on Godus? What was his official status on this project before then? Was it legal? Discussing financial concerns gets murky when we start hearing about unpaid, volunteer work being made on the project. Last I recall hearing, he worked a year on Godus as a volunteer. How do any of the numbers track when a portion of the people working on it aren't actually draining funds? So many questions... Edit: Oh, and were there any other "volunteer" people working on the project as well?
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Post by sidara on Feb 15, 2015 5:29:14 GMT
Uh, I don't know how it works in the UK, but in Australia a commercial company is not allowed to take someone on unpaid unless it's an internship through a recognised educational institution (it's obviously allowed for registered charities).
There can be hefty fines and the company can be made to backpay the person the minimum wage for the duration of their employment. Was 22cans behaving illegally with Moo?
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 15, 2015 6:16:04 GMT
Edit: Oh, and were there any other "volunteer" people working on the project as well? SamVT lists two interns; Konrad and Pavle. Were both student interns? Regardless, there were at least two in as much time, so chances are fair that there were potentially a few more in duration.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Feb 15, 2015 7:22:39 GMT
One of the other funny things people pointed out in a thread was that Peter has this calculation he to explain why the money ran out and he had to get a publisher. Its pretty simple - time x number of people x average salary = ? But the simplicity of the calculation directly contradicts his statements that he couldn't possibly be expected to know that he would run out of money and that he asked for too little. Yeah, it's a pretty classic dodge. In testing, we look at the boundary issues of a situation. It brings up simple questions like this: Do we know the minimum value for this number? Do we know the maximum value for this number? How does the minimum value and the expected amount mesh? If the minimum isn't met, how is this handled? PM claims that they couldn't know the minimum. They put out an expected value but claim that they knew it was below the minimum from past experience. This is a logical flaw. In order to make the second judgement, they had to know a general amount for minimum. Even if it was off, they had a ballpark figure. Peter tried to play both sides of this in the RPS interview and was called on it, but many didn't pick up on that. Assuming they didn't know the minimum but they knew the expected amount wasn't going to be sufficient (let's not run in circles trying to figure out how they could come to that possiblity), let's look at their plan for handling the inevitable funding issues. According to their Kickstarter they had no plan for handling it when it went green. Kickstarter rules state that a project must have a reasonable expectation of being completed with the funding asked for. The specific statement (as of the KS site right now) is that "every project needs a plan for creating something and sharing it with the world." According to PM's own statements in the RPS article, he provided backers with, at best, only a small portion of a plan. He didn't just think he might not have enough funding but knew it. He didn't tell his backers this problem. And, most importantly, he knew he was misleading people with both his funding needs and timeline before his Kickstarter went green. IT IS IRRELEVANT HOW HE HANDLED FUNDING POST KICKSTARTER GREEN DATE. He was in breach long before that. Even more interesting, if we work with his numbers, rounding up what was received via Kickstarter, 530,000, they were 130,000 short of paying all 22 people (at least, for a year), only netting enough to pay around 17/18 people. Remove from that 530,000 whatever Kickstarter's cut is and it looks even worse. Supposing they knew how many people they were employing, how much they were getting paid, it's only more curious. Their goal was 450,000, that's only enough for 15 people for a year. It really doesn't add up at all, unless they were expecting to drop 7 people after receiving funding or had enough to make up for the difference somehow. You're pretty much on the money here, and their sudden move after the fact to sign with a publisher only seems to solidify that they had no real game plan. What's bizarre about that is...Just what came up in development that made them think that they needed more funding? They signed with the publisher March (or May?) of 2013, yeah? That was only 3(5?) months after the project got Kickstarted and only 3(/5) months into development. The whole Jupiter announcement that might have inflated costs dramatically (as per Fabs' post) hadn't been made yet, right? Far as I can find, it wasn't mentioned until shortly after arrival in Early Access. That would have been about 9 months into development. Ignoring that they said it would release in that timeframe (but they meant Early Access the whole way, the ambiguity was a mishaps!), that's still not a good reason to have signed with DeNA several months before unless they knew they were going to announce that at some point. Nevertheless, if they knew it was going to cost so much, that's less of a reason to say fuck it, sign with the devil, and more of a reason to cut back the scope of the game, push into Early Access with a solid foundation, continue to improve and hope sales keep going to keep development running. So there's a few ways of looking at it: -Kickstarter was proof of support to get a publisher. -Kickstarter was genuine, until Peter bullshitted himself into an unrealistic feature and decided screw the backers. -Kickstarter was genuine, but Peter realized soon after that things might take longer than anticipated so decided to say screw the backers. None of these are really good.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Feb 15, 2015 10:06:48 GMT
I think DeNa was already going to be involved from the very beginning. My impression from what PM has said about the Kickstarter in his recent interviews is that they deliberately didn't as for enough to fund the development of Godus, because they knew that they'd never reach their goal that way (and this is probably correct, because 22Cans has chosen to operate like a AAA studio). The Kickstarter will have been supplemented by Peter's own money, probably funding from the other shareholders too and whatever they got from DeNa.
DeNa provides technology for the mobile version. The user accounts system and servers are provided by DeNa, as well as microtransaction processing. We know 22Cans operates without almost any foresight whatsoever, but these are all key technological elements that needed to be in place in order to realise the mobile version, and since we now know mobile F2P was the objective from the beginning, there's no way 22Cans hadn't already planned for this.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Feb 15, 2015 10:26:52 GMT
Bare in mind that they didn't actually have 22 people employed at the start of the project. The name 22cans comes from 22 experiments that Peter wanted to do. I believe they had less than 20 employees at the time of the kicstarter. Judging from this picture I'd say 19.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 15, 2015 20:17:00 GMT
Bare in mind that they didn't actually have 22 people employed at the start of the project. The name 22cans comes from 22 experiments that Peter wanted to do. I believe they had less than 20 employees at the time of the kicstarter. Judging from this picture I'd say 19. Nope, it was always a number of people: "Peter’s dream was to hand-craft a team of the 22 most talented, passionate and creative individuals with which to make the defining games of his career. 22 Cans create games for the world, and the journey has only just begun." As for the funding, remember that we aren't talking about a 1 year time frame. The numbers make more sense when you change it to a 7-9 month period for 22Cans. All of which drives home just how elaborate the design of this Kickstarter was. He knew it wouldn't fund the project but reported all evidence to reflect it would at the time. His whole narrative assumes he had no idea how much it would cost to keep 22Cans running for this project but falls flat because 22Cans wasn't put together for this Kickstarter. They knew funding challenges from Curiosity. This is a series of half-truths being used to dodge the reality that he knew what he was doing, chose to warp the truth, and omitted key information to sucker in backers from the start.
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Post by hardly on Feb 15, 2015 20:33:58 GMT
I think peter said both about 22 people and in interviews 22 experiments, hence the confusion. He also said GODUS would be his last game and he'd work on it forever.... It's no wonder people have accused him of being a pathological liar given his propensity to make predictions that quite often don't come true.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 15, 2015 21:19:46 GMT
I think peter said both about 22 people and in interviews 22 experiments, hence the confusion. He also said GODUS would be his last game and he'd work on it forever.... It's no wonder people have accused him of being a pathological liar given his propensity to make predictions that quite often don't come true. "... people have accused him of being a pathological liar given his propensity to make predictions that quite often don't come true he ignores." #fixedit It's not that they just "don't come true, because reasons", he says things he doesn't really mean - although supposedly he " believes" he means them in the moment, and assumes we'll believe he means it, it's not a stretch to assume that subconsciously he probably knows it's complete bollocks, and doesn't really mean what he's saying; his actions show this is a high probability of being the truth.
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Post by hardly on Feb 15, 2015 21:28:21 GMT
I think peter said both about 22 people and in interviews 22 experiments, hence the confusion. He also said GODUS would be his last game and he'd work on it forever.... It's no wonder people have accused him of being a pathological liar given his propensity to make predictions that quite often don't come true. "... people have accused him of being a pathological liar given his propensity to make predictions that quite often don't come true he ignores." #fixedit It's not that they just "don't come true, because reasons", he says things he doesn't really mean - although supposedly he " believes" he means them in the moment, and assumes we'll believe he means it, it's not a stretch to assume that subconsciously he probably knows it's complete bollocks, and doesn't really mean what he's saying; his actions show this is a high probability of being the truth. Well when you make so many predictions about your own actions and the actions of the people who report to you that don't come true people eventually assume that some of those were in fact lies that you deliberately told to inflate the value of the project you were working on or to disguise previous failures. It's almost impossible to prove he lied, and nobody on a forum can diagnose somebody is a pathological liar, but boy does this man make a lot of incorrect statements.
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