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Post by Gmr Leon on Mar 6, 2015 0:48:22 GMT
Was mucking about to see if the updates fixed the tutorial crash I ran into (they didn't, wiped save, that fixed it) and decided to take a glance at the world editor. Still befuddled by it, I decided to ask about it in the opt-in thread, then did some looking about the workshop to see if anyone had figured it out and I was just dense. It turns out I wasn't all that dense (hurrah reassurance), but that one of the 22cans devs had quietly uploaded some tutorials. ...Maybe I had disconnected from the whole mess at that point or something (I don't think so...), but I don't recall any highlighting of those tutorials at all in any posts from any of the 22cans staff. Kudos to Jamie Stowe for putting those together, even if it's a tad delayed, but really, if someone was to tell us about those at some point, they kinda dropped the ball. Edit:
Holy crap! These still work! I say that only because 1: beta shenanigans, and 2: Jack's TESTWORLD completely failed to work for me. I might just futz about with these out of curiosity. Edit2:
Index of useful posts: Lua Scripting Function Crib Sheet.Working with reaction functions.Basic World Edit Tutorials (Terrain Colors/Expansions/Treasure/Progression/Enemy).Basic hotkey stuff and value adjustment for certain tools.
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Post by hardly on Mar 6, 2015 1:25:44 GMT
Sounds interesting. Although I'd prefer the game to be a world editor.
Let us know what you can do with your new powers.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Mar 6, 2015 1:32:11 GMT
In case the files disappear for whatever reason, I've copied the tutorials he included in the descriptions of each world:
Map colour tutorial: A simple demo of how to change the colour of your worlds.
Key Files: - info.csv - here the default colour of the world is set (20 is the orange and purple halloween theme. There are 20 colour schemes to choose from, although more are added with each update) - biomes.csv - this is where you set areas of colours in the map. The larger radius is the blend radius between this colour and the default.
Expansion tutorial: A simple demo of how to use temples to expand the area of influence.
Key Files: - influence_areas.csv - this is where you set up the position and size of the influence areas - templePositions.csv - this is where you set the temples, their cost and timers - unlocks.csv - to unlock an area of influence you must match the influence area with the temple id
Treasure tutorial: A simple demo of how to place chests and treasure temples in your worlds.
Key Files: - rewardChests.csv - this is where you setup the chests and their contents - templePositions.csv - this is where you set the temples and their rewards.
Progression(LevelUps) tutorial: A simple demo of how to reward the player for hitting population/farm and mine goals. In this example I unlock the god powers via population milestones, the shrines via field levels and give gems on mining levels.
Key Files: - populationLevels.csv - this is where you set the reward (Card/Sticker) for reaching a certain number of followers. - grainLevels.csv - this is where you set the reward (Card/Sticker) for building a certain number of fields. - oreLevels.csv - this is where you set the reward (Card/Sticker) for building a certain number of mines. - cardData.csv - to make cards appear in the timeline they must have a type of Advance. You can then change the colour of the card ("Research Type") and the number of stickers required ("Research Needed") to unlock it. You can see a much more detailed example if you make a copy of Homeworld or Weyworld. - unlocks.csv - the powers and shrines are unlocked by having gained and completed the cards
Notes: - you can't create you own cards, you can only use existing ones. The visual aspects of the cards (name, image etc) are stored in another file not yet exposed. - unlocks are shared between worlds, so if you have a late Homeworld save it's likely that the powers will already be unlocked and the timeline empty. If you are making your own world to replace Homeworld/Weyworld this won't be much of an issue, but if you want to make a world to go after Weyworld you might want to give resources instead
Astari/enemy tutorial: A simple demo of how to set up the Astari in your world
Key Files: - scripts.lua - creates the Astari settlement - templePositions.csv - creates the Astari Temple - influence_areas.csv - sets an Astari influence area that you cannot sculpt in - unlocks.csv - unlock happiness and festivals. Once the Astari are conquered the influence area switches to yours.
Will have to experiment to see just how much can be done with adjustments to these, but some of it sounds potentially promising, like the LevelUps tutorial.
Edit: Guess this was pre-Astari raids, maybe, because I don't see anything that allows the adjustment of that. Takeover conditions are limited to influence (which I imagine also leaves open wiping them out).
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Post by 13thGeneral on Mar 6, 2015 2:00:40 GMT
I haven't even tried messing with the world editor for those exact reasons; It was just sort of slipped in under the radar, without any big announcement or fuss, and nobody bothered to go into any detail about how to use it. At least not so far that I was even aware it was out. So I didn't even realize (or maybe remember) that it had even been launched, until I saw it in the 'Options' menu during my play-through last weekend.
Thanks for posting this, though.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Mar 6, 2015 2:12:08 GMT
I haven't even tried messing with the world editor for those exact reasons; It was just sort of slipped in under the radar, without any big announcement or fuss, and nobody bothered to go into any detail about how to use it. At least not so far that I was even aware it was out. So I didn't even realize (or maybe remember) that it had even been launched, until I saw it in the 'Options' menu during my play-through last weekend. Thanks for posting this, though. Yeah, I remember its announcement being kind of a sidenote to the BFE, and when I first tried it, it didn't appear to do anything. Which is why I've found some of the recent updates mentioning work on it pretty strange, since as far as I could tell it never really worked to begin with, but then as I've already mentioned, here I find all this and I'm left going, "Wait, this has been here how long?"
On a sorta separate note, Raspofabs, any chance you could maybe explain what's up with the terraingen lua script? Not sure if you worked on it at all, but there's literally no documentation for what to do with it that I've found. It sounds like you could mess with the functions included and get some map generation going if you knew what you're doing, however it's...Well, it's a script file. The comments within explain a little of what some of it does (and the names are somewhat self-explanatory), but it's still about as user-friendly as any unfamiliar code happens to be. No idea where you'd toss it to get it recognized and work its magic either, so even if you did understand the code, that'd still leave it pretty useless. Edit: As it stands, I don't really see much use for the world editor, since while the other stuff is there to make some significant changes, arguably the next most preferable thing to change (the map design itself) requires working with the existing limited powers. If you want to build a custom map, you're going to find yourself sculpting it just as you would in the normal game, with all the frustrations that includes (narrow sculpt path, double-click RSI for adding hills/mountains' origin points, etc.). I'd love to completely overhaul mines/fields to produce stickers or something to see how that works as opposed to chests, maybe even excluding chests entirely (or maybe you could tweak them for random card unlocks?), but I don't feel all that motivated working within the existing tired map. Might still be worth it, I guess, as a small experiment, but I dunno.
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Post by Spiderweb on Mar 6, 2015 6:41:17 GMT
Was mucking about to see if the updates fixed the tutorial crash I ran into (they didn't, wiped save, that fixed it) and decided to take a glance at the world editor. Still befuddled by it, I decided to ask about it in the opt-in thread, then did some looking about the workshop to see if anyone had figured it out and I was just dense. It turns out I wasn't all that dense (hurrah reassurance), but that one of the 22cans devs had quietly uploaded some tutorials. ...Maybe I had disconnected from the whole mess at that point or something (I don't think so...), but I don't recall any highlighting of those tutorials at all in any posts from any of the 22cans staff. Kudos to Jamie Stowe for putting those together, even if it's a tad delayed, but really, if someone was to tell us about those at some point, they kinda dropped the ball. Edit:
Holy crap! These still work! I say that only because 1: beta shenanigans, and 2: Jack's TESTWORLD completely failed to work for me. I might just futz about these out of curiosity. When I first tried the map editor out it broke my Homeworld totally and the design tools were awkward to use. So I reverted to a save and never looked again. I wonder how much you could improve the gameplay yourself in your own world. Interesting stuff.
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Post by militairensneuvelen on Mar 6, 2015 10:13:54 GMT
Yep, totally missed them. I wasn't aware we were getting a world editor to begin with.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Mar 6, 2015 13:15:40 GMT
Does it have a random generator?
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Post by Gmr Leon on Mar 6, 2015 20:50:50 GMT
Does it have a random generator? Not that I could find (sounded like maybe Spiderweb found something like that in the options somewhere?).
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Post by Spiderweb on Mar 6, 2015 22:01:06 GMT
Does it have a random generator? Not that I could find (sounded like maybe Spiderweb found something like that in the options somewhere?). Yes it does, and its in a annoying position where it is easily clicked on. I also managed to reset my game with the new game option that I thought would only effect edited worlds (it didn't) I'm working on my own world now. It underway but a lot of work to do. The UI is horrible and I have a feeling I've somehow replaced homeworld with my creation, and I've no idea how. At this point I'm not fussed at losing anything anymore, just seeing if I can have some fun with the editors. steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=403623247
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Post by Gmr Leon on Mar 6, 2015 22:33:47 GMT
Not that I could find (sounded like maybe Spiderweb found something like that in the options somewhere?). Yes it does, and its in a annoying position where it is easily clicked on. I also managed to reset my game with the new game option that I thought would only effect edited worlds (it didn't) I'm working on my own world now. It underway but a lot of work to do. The UI is horrible and I have a feeling I've somehow replaced homeworld with my creation, and I've no idea how. At this point I'm not fussed at losing anything anymore, just seeing if I can have some fun with the editors. steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=403623247Aaah, I found it now. It's incredibly unintuitive. You have to copy an existing world to get access to those tools, because...That makes sense...I guess. Um...Wow. It's really, really raw. Escape exits the game faster than it ever has in an actual game, and the zoom in is way closer than I'd like. Very lacking in documentation, but I think they said that would be the case anyway, so not surprised there. Edit:
Okay, so what I've figured out: Ctrl+Z=Undo. Ctrl+Y=Redo. Space=Zoom way way out. Copy and paste is extremely finicky, but it works like so, expand the selection square to cover the area you want to copy, then pan over to an empty area and right click. It should paste what was within the selection area, but it may not be all of it. I have no idea why as of yet. For some reason it will copy entities atop the terrain (trees/rocks) but not on the terrain itself (blight). Edit2: Hey Spiderweb, were those gem seams the result of random gen, or were you able to figure out how to place those manually? Currently trying to figure out the gem placement option, but it's only producing blight (I hope that's an in-joke with one of the frustrated devs and their thoughts towards gems).
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Post by Spiderweb on Mar 7, 2015 0:11:17 GMT
Yes it does, and its in a annoying position where it is easily clicked on. I also managed to reset my game with the new game option that I thought would only effect edited worlds (it didn't) I'm working on my own world now. It underway but a lot of work to do. The UI is horrible and I have a feeling I've somehow replaced homeworld with my creation, and I've no idea how. At this point I'm not fussed at losing anything anymore, just seeing if I can have some fun with the editors. steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=403623247Aaah, I found it now. It's incredibly unintuitive. You have to copy an existing world to get access to those tools, because...That makes sense...I guess. Um...Wow. It's really, really raw. Escape exits the game faster than it ever has in an actual game, and the zoom in is way closer than I'd like. Very lacking in documentation, but I think they said that would be the case anyway, so not surprised there. Edit:
Okay, so what I've figured out: Ctrl+Z=Undo. Ctrl+Y=Redo. Space=Zoom way way out. Copy and paste is extremely finicky, but it works like so, expand the selection square to cover the area you want to copy, then pan over to an empty area and right click. It should paste what was within the selection area, but it may not be all of it. I have no idea why as of yet. For some reason it will copy entities atop the terrain (trees/rocks) but not on the terrain itself (blight). Edit2: Hey Spiderweb, were those gem seams the result of random gen, or were you able to figure out how to place those manually? Currently trying to figure out the gem placement option, but it's only producing blight (I hope that's an in-joke with one of the frustrated devs and their thoughts towards gems). I could not place them but if you change the 1.40 value next to the F10 line when its highlighted (mouse wheel works) it produces gems rather than blight. Oh and thanks for the other tips. Have you had any trouble with managing the worlds? I found all sorts of strange things happening. Also the csv files for all the objects is just nasty (feel sorry for the devs)
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Post by Gmr Leon on Mar 7, 2015 1:47:01 GMT
Edit2: Hey Spiderweb, were those gem seams the result of random gen, or were you able to figure out how to place those manually? Currently trying to figure out the gem placement option, but it's only producing blight (I hope that's an in-joke with one of the frustrated devs and their thoughts towards gems). I could not place them but if you change the 1.40 value next to the F10 line when its highlighted (mouse wheel works) it produces gems rather than blight. Oh and thanks for the other tips. Have you had any trouble with managing the worlds? I found all sorts of strange things happening. Also the csv files for all the objects is just nasty (feel sorry for the devs) Sorry, that's what I was trying to ask, I didn't mean in the sense of placing each gem stone or something (if that's how you read it). So it looks like anything below 0.40 will paint gems, anything between 0.40-0.79 will paint granite, and anything between 0.82-1.40 will paint blight. Good info to know, thanks for the help in spotting that! I thought I'd tried the scroll wheel there, but I must not have (or must not have messed with it enough). What do you mean about managing them, by the way? I've noticed that it does seem like new game doesn't seem to work with the Homeworld map and going back to it seems to, for some reason, have some of the statues cards available for unlock (fitter followers/something else) and likes to notify me of new gifts (despite none being unlocked). I've not tested any of this with in-progress maps yet, so I'm not sure what effects that might have on those, but I think something in the way it's been built loses connection with our saves or creates distortions in them, causing some overlapping effects from the other worlds that it shouldn't. Looking more closely at the save folder now, looks like the game creates multiple saves for each world, but I'm not sure how it's configured to select which to load up outside of some very basic world association stuff (e.g. name or something). I'm also not entirely clear on what the presence files hold that helps in reloading, so it wouldn't shock me if all of these different saves are getting muddled up upon reloading, since the game wasn't exactly built for multiple save slots or anything. Edit:
By the way, now that I've figured out where the world generator option is, I'm betting that's associated with the terraingen I was asking about earlier. Maybe back that up, toss some different numbers in, and you might see some wildly different landscapes. Edit2: My Steam thread compiling a bunch of this info was moved to the BFE subforum, I know probably appropriately, but it feels like a death sentence for it there. =/
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Post by Spiderweb on Mar 7, 2015 12:40:47 GMT
I could not place them but if you change the 1.40 value next to the F10 line when its highlighted (mouse wheel works) it produces gems rather than blight. Oh and thanks for the other tips. Have you had any trouble with managing the worlds? I found all sorts of strange things happening. Also the csv files for all the objects is just nasty (feel sorry for the devs) Sorry, that's what I was trying to ask, I didn't mean in the sense of placing each gem stone or something (if that's how you read it). So it looks like anything below 0.40 will paint gems, anything between 0.40-0.79 will paint granite, and anything between 0.82-1.40 will paint blight. Good info to know, thanks for the help in spotting that! I thought I'd tried the scroll wheel there, but I must not have (or must not have messed with it enough). What do you mean about managing them, by the way? I've noticed that it does seem like new game doesn't seem to work with the Homeworld map and going back to it seems to, for some reason, have some of the statues cards available for unlock (fitter followers/something else) and likes to notify me of new gifts (despite none being unlocked). I've not tested any of this with in-progress maps yet, so I'm not sure what effects that might have on those, but I think something in the way it's been built loses connection with our saves or creates distortions in them, causing some overlapping effects from the other worlds that it shouldn't. Looking more closely at the save folder now, looks like the game creates multiple saves for each world, but I'm not sure how it's configured to select which to load up outside of some very basic world association stuff (e.g. name or something). I'm also not entirely clear on what the presence files hold that helps in reloading, so it wouldn't shock me if all of these different saves are getting muddled up upon reloading, since the game wasn't exactly built for multiple save slots or anything. Edit:
By the way, now that I've figured out where the world generator option is, I'm betting that's associated with the terraingen I was asking about earlier. Maybe back that up, toss some different numbers in, and you might see some wildly different landscapes. Edit2: My Steam thread compiling a bunch of this info was moved to the BFE subforum, I know probably appropriately, but it feels like a death sentence for it there. =/ Yeah, 22cans all quiet on it, still I'm going to give it a go and produce my own map from scratch. Maybe Lord Ba'al can pin this somewhere more prominent.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Mar 7, 2015 17:53:01 GMT
Is this not prominent enough?
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Post by Spiderweb on Mar 9, 2015 14:24:48 GMT
Work in progress!
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Post by Gmr Leon on Mar 10, 2015 0:14:59 GMT
Work in progress! Impressive! I keep considering dabbling with the editor more seriously, but keep running up against the game's fundamental issues. I could rearrange the timeline and even revise how resources are gained (I think), but I have a hard time figuring out where the fun would emerge. Without an effective way to tweak the Astari, nor any resource sinks, it seems best left to just designing some neat looking worlds. Edit:
By the way, if you're interested in figuring out how to rework the "background" stuff like timeline/rewards, copy Homeworld and check its files for reference. You can see'em all in a spreadsheet which, I imagine, you can then adjust however you will to affect the custom world itself. Edit2:
Hmm, not sure if much can be done with it, but I'd suggest giving the script file a look if you copy your homeworld, might be some interesting stuff in there. *digging through it because why not* Swamps are apparently placed on the world via scripted god powers. That's an interesting way of doing it, I guess. Probably irrelevant, but the starting tutorial is called the trail. Just thought that was kind of an interesting coincidence.
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Post by Spiderweb on Mar 10, 2015 6:29:13 GMT
Ah good idea with Homeworld csv'so I'll look at that (I had one of the tutorials files as my base). I still don't find the edit world management menu very helpful or straightforward. I've got progression beacons in place (following a tutorial) but actually testing the world with explore option or new game option brings whatever I do into the editor (i.e the sculpting and hut/followers appear in the editor). I have to use new game twice to reset my edited world. Spacebar for zoom out and a overview is great. Reminds me of populous and should be in the main game! I want to do the card unlocks via temple repairs (more like populous the beginning). I'm going to try and figure that out next (if it is even possible).
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Post by Gmr Leon on Mar 10, 2015 8:17:22 GMT
I want to do the card unlocks via temple repairs (more like populous the beginning). I'm going to try and figure that out next (if it is even possible). Had any luck with that? I tried a few things, but I think the structures might be hardcoded for very specific rewards. At first I tried tweaking the Shrine_BigTreasure to toss up a god power card reward, but got nothing. Looked at the Homeworld files and found an old Shrine_GodPower line and tried it, but I don't think that's remained through the updates (or been implemented yet/at all), as nothing appears. It might work with other stuff, as I didn't try anything else, but if nothing else, finding those old lines was pretty cool. Seems like at some point they were tossing around the idea of unlocking powers via a similar system to what we were looking into, but never got around to implementing it (which with the construction times we've seen, might have been for the better).
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Post by Spiderweb on Mar 10, 2015 8:21:56 GMT
I want to do the card unlocks via temple repairs (more like populous the beginning). I'm going to try and figure that out next (if it is even possible). Had any luck with that? I tried a few things, but I think the structures might be hardcoded for very specific rewards. At first I tried tweaking the Shrine_BigTreasure to toss up a god power card reward, but got nothing. Looked at the Homeworld files and found an old Shrine_GodPower line and tried it, but I don't think that's remained through the updates (or been implemented yet/at all), as nothing appears. It might work with other stuff, as I didn't try anything else, but if nothing else, finding those old lines was pretty cool. Seems like at some point they were tossing around the idea of unlocking powers via a similar system to what we were looking into, but never got around to implementing it (which with the construction times we've seen, might have been for the better). I remember it being said that expansion can trigger cards somehow, maybe lua. I'll try to find some time today to look at the other stuff, most of my time on this is limited to playing with it during my lunch break or other quiet times so I'll see how I get on. I think lua triggers will be key to this.
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