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Post by hardly on May 11, 2015 1:32:58 GMT
It's Furious Moo's six month anniversary (or thereabouts) and I thought I'd give him his report card. Leave your own version below.
Development direction: C+
Moo has made an effort to move in the right direction but there is a lack of commitment in key areas including interface and gameplay. While combat is likely to be a positive development it is unclear how it will be integrated into the wider gameplay.
Communication: B-
Moo started off at an A level of communication but factors unknown (presumably being told off) led him to cut back considerably on community engagement. Moo has been riding on his earlier success in this area and risks getting a D next semester if he continues as he is.
Progress towards completion: D
While Moo promised much this semester and has demonstrated progress in planning, little of the finished product is evident. Ultimately even the relatively small deliverable of combat is incomplete while the greater deliverable of a finished game appears beyond reach. It is unlikely Moo has adequate resource to complete godus and we are fearful it will be concluded in an unfinished state.
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Post by bed on May 11, 2015 3:51:16 GMT
ultimately it comes down to..
New reasons to want to play Godus again: F
Sorry Moo, I know you're trying.
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Post by hardly on May 11, 2015 4:31:33 GMT
ultimately it comes down to.. New reasons to want to play Godus again: F Sorry Moo, I know you're trying. He faces three intractable issues: First he is underresourced. Second he is starting from 2 years down the track and being judged accordingly. Third, we understand 22cans are siphoning off godus revenue for Betrayal. If all the godus revenue was going in a godus only pool he wouldn't be under the same financial pressure.
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Post by mindless on May 11, 2015 5:56:23 GMT
Third, we understand 22cans are siphoning off godus revenue for Betrayal. If all the godus revenue was going in a godus only pool he wouldn't be under the same financial pressure. Its hard to imagine a worse situation to be in that the one he already finds himself stuck with. Its obvious the whole company has all but given up on Godus, its just being maintained on the absolute bare minimum amount of life support required to show its still alive ( and to avoid the inevitable lawsuit that would initiate upon its demise), while at the same time denying hope to the family members that their loved one will ever again wake from that perpetual vegetative state. As soon as the B'trail calls for more resources to get completed you can be damn sure that godus will get sidelined each and every time. Hell that's probably what's happening right this instant with the current dry spell of daily updates, I could speculate that the reason for the lack of communication is that there's literally nothing to report, because they aren't even working on the game.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2015 6:29:39 GMT
He faces three intractable issues: First he is underresourced. Second he is starting from 2 years down the track and being judged accordingly. Third, we understand 22cans are siphoning off godus revenue for Betrayal. If all the godus revenue was going in a godus only pool he wouldn't be under the same financial pressure. Precisely. On top of that, he also has to deal with the PR and the management of 22cans for continuing to create a lovely atmosphere that makes me think they're going to use him as a fall guy. As such, I could more appropriately rate Moo if there were more actual effort going on there at 22cans, but right now it looks like he's just being used for show at best, but certainly has been made to shoulder the runner the other developers at 22cans pulled* since now he's "lead designer" - a meaningless title when there's really only one...and he can only colour in the lines by the stipulation of the mismanagement. We saw Moo try with what little he was given...then we saw the rest of 22cans collectively fuck that up through a manner that could only be intentional sabotage. * - To be fair, I can't blame those who bailed from 22cans for leaving that mess, but I think it is really remarkable how 22cans has "burned out" some developers clean out of the industry.
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Post by Crumpy Six on May 11, 2015 7:20:05 GMT
Is Konrad being held fully accountable for the entire progress of Godus since he came on board? I don't think that's very fair.
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Post by hardly on May 11, 2015 8:13:35 GMT
Is Konrad being held fully accountable for the entire progress of Godus since he came on board? I don't think that's very fair. That's not my point. You can't blame Konrad for where things are and neither can you separate konrads performance from 22can's. In fact the problem is by stripping the resources off godus 22cans have actually set him up to fail while at the same time hiding behind the charade that the game will be completed one day. I don't think my report card is unfair. I'm acknowledging his good intentions but also his inability (because of resourcing) to achieve much. Ultimately you have to put the progress in the context of six months having passed. If we have to wait six months for this, how long for the next step and what progress can we expect it to bring? Not only is our patience limited but so too is the development months they have left before they have to space base the game. If godus is to live it needs to get to the point where it's a viable PC game. Six months further on and almost 2 years since EA release and it's so incredibly far from a viable PC game. All this means it's circling the proverbial drain.
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on May 11, 2015 9:08:28 GMT
I think Raspofabs leaving has been the death blow to any kind of progress being made. It seems that whoever is left programming godus is not ready to be lead programmer because of lack of experience. At this point we don't even have any proof that anybody is still working on godus at all.
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stuhacking
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Post by stuhacking on May 11, 2015 9:13:10 GMT
What is the point of this thread? To stir up a bit of trouble? It reads like a passive-aggressive jab at the person who genuinely wanted to set things right.
At this point the Godus community is so sour I think 22Cans should just cut the project where it's at and move on. It's clear nothing they do for Godus at this point will ever be enough.
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Post by hardly on May 11, 2015 9:19:12 GMT
I think Raspofabs leaving has been the death blow to any kind of progress being made. It seems that whoever is left programming godus is not ready to be lead programmer because of lack of experience. At this point we don't even have any proof that anybody is still working on godus at all. Indeed. It's a pretty tough ask for two junior developers.
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Post by Crumpy Six on May 11, 2015 9:22:40 GMT
Is Konrad being held fully accountable for the entire progress of Godus since he came on board? I don't think that's very fair. That's not my point. You can't blame Konrad for where things are and neither can you separate konrads performance from 22can's. In fact the problem is by stripping the resources off godus 22cans have actually set him up to fail while at the same time hiding behind the charade that the game will be completed one day. I don't think my report card is unfair. I'm acknowledging his good intentions but also his inability (because of resourcing) to achieve much. Ultimately you have to put the progress in the context of six months having passed. If we have to wait six months for this, how long for the next step and what progress can we expect it to bring? Not only is our patience limited but so too is the development months they have left before they have to space base the game. If godus is to live it needs to get to the point where it's a viable PC game. Six months further on and almost 2 years since EA release and it's so incredibly far from a viable PC game. All this means it's circling the proverbial drain. Well yeah, but framing it as a report card for Konrad makes it seem like he has personally failed, when (as you've said) a lot of what happens is most likely outside of his control. We as a community should also be given an F by these standards, because despite our own best efforts and endless feedback we've been incapable of influencing the development in any constructive way. The point that Konrad has been on board for 6 months in the capacity of lead game designer, and that in the last 3 months 22Cans is supposed to have been working harder than ever before to get Godus into a good condition, is more pertinent. Godus appears to be stagnating, despite endless updates about how much work is allegedly being done on combat (which is a feature that everyone is kind of lukewarm about anyway). I seem to recall that when Konrad first started engaging with us he was asked to justify the focus on combat. He said that he was prioritising work based on quick wins, which is not at all unreasonable, however if combat was supposed to be a "quick win" then Godus is truly up the creek. Combat was also supposed to be something that needed to be in place for various other things that he wanted to achieve with Godus, but whether those goals were multiplayer or a move towards a more RST-type game has never been fully explained. I really, really wish Konrad would come back and speak to us again, or anyone for that matter, and explain just what the hell is going on right now.
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Post by hardly on May 11, 2015 9:26:36 GMT
What is the point of this thread? To stir up a bit of trouble? It reads like a passive-aggressive jab at the person who genuinely wanted to set things right. At this point the Godus community is so sour I think 22Cans should just cut the project where it's at and move on. It's clear nothing they do for Godus at this point will ever be enough. I wanted to reflect on the time that's passed since moo took over and the progress that's been made. There isn't infinite time to recover this situation, the money will run out. So it is germane to discuss progress to date. It's not a case of being sour, there is no game worth playing, there wasn't six months ago and what gives you confidence there will be in the future? It's not like the community is deliberately down on 22cans, its that we've had 2 years of disappointment. It pisses me off when people make out that we are the problem as if godus isn't a clusterfuck by every objective measure. 22cans and peter molyneux made this mess against our every objection, is it wrong we demand they fix it and comment when they don't? Their obligation never ends, there is no out clause.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2015 9:27:05 GMT
What is the point of this thread? To stir up a bit of trouble? It reads like a passive-aggressive jab at the person who genuinely wanted to set things right. I don't get that at all. What I see is that it illustrates how someone who was trying to be honest and productive has has their work continually subverted by the mismanagement of 22cans while being censured by their superiors for doing so. That goes especially when 22cans are making it obvious that they don't care about Godus' development, but for some reason want to continue with this dog and pony show that there is actual full development upon the title. That combination might be why the community went from a bit hopeful with Konrad into becoming even more soured, along with the moderation and other antics going on.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2015 9:32:50 GMT
I also have to point out that what is and isn't done under Konrad's time in design will reflect upon him professionally; despite us knowing that 22cans are causing problems in development for him, future employers might see the 22cans entry on the CV and just laugh.
As designers are the ones credited for brilliant design (see: PM), they also tend to be the ones held responsible for bad implementation of their design or the state of the game.
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Post by hardly on May 11, 2015 9:35:10 GMT
That's not my point. You can't blame Konrad for where things are and neither can you separate konrads performance from 22can's. In fact the problem is by stripping the resources off godus 22cans have actually set him up to fail while at the same time hiding behind the charade that the game will be completed one day. I don't think my report card is unfair. I'm acknowledging his good intentions but also his inability (because of resourcing) to achieve much. Ultimately you have to put the progress in the context of six months having passed. If we have to wait six months for this, how long for the next step and what progress can we expect it to bring? Not only is our patience limited but so too is the development months they have left before they have to space base the game. If godus is to live it needs to get to the point where it's a viable PC game. Six months further on and almost 2 years since EA release and it's so incredibly far from a viable PC game. All this means it's circling the proverbial drain. Well yeah, but framing it as a report card for Konrad makes it seem like he has personally failed, when (as you've said) a lot of what happens is most likely outside of his control. We as a community should also be given an F by these standards, because despite our own best efforts and endless feedback we've been incapable of influencing the development in any constructive way. The point that Konrad has been on board for 6 months in the capacity of lead game designer, and that in the last 3 months 22Cans is supposed to have been working harder than ever before to get Godus into a good condition, is more pertinent. Godus appears to be stagnating, despite endless updates about how much work is allegedly being done on combat (which is a feature that everyone is kind of lukewarm about anyway). I seem to recall that when Konrad first started engaging with us he was asked to justify the focus on combat. He said that he was prioritising work based on quick wins, which is not at all unreasonable, however if combat was supposed to be a "quick win" then Godus is truly up the creek. Combat was also supposed to be something that needed to be in place for various other things that he wanted to achieve with Godus, but whether those goals were multiplayer or a move towards a more RST-type game has never been fully explained. I really, really wish Konrad would come back and speak to us again, or anyone for that matter, and explain just what the hell is going on right now. I think that is where I judge 22cans the most, because since day one they asked us to trust their BS "no plan" design methodology. They seemed to lurch from one monetising opportunity to the next with no greater plan than getting the cash through the door. I think it's fair to give the lead designer a report card. He is the face of the project and should be fronting up. I get he can't magic up resources but he's the face of the project. If his resources are so scarce he can't deliver on anything perhaps he is just a diversion and if he's just a diversion shouldn't we question that? I don't want to be an asshole that throws shit at a person trying to fix this mess but at the same time I can't countenance pretending this mess has a chance of being fixed when all evidence suggests it doesn't. Ultimately if 22cans have any confidence in their ability to deliver they would show us a plan and stop discounting the game. They've done neither which tells me they know it's hopeless and perhaps they are just playing for time until betrayal can be released.
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stuhacking
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Post by stuhacking on May 11, 2015 10:41:59 GMT
It's not a case of being sour, there is no game worth playing, there wasn't six months ago and what gives you confidence there will be in the future? I don't have any confidence in the project, and I don't believe I gave that impression. In my opinion, there is not enough dev effort available in 22Cans to fix the situation for Godus. I don't blame any 22Cans employee who has decided to seek a new opportunity. its that we've had 2 years of disappointment. You don't need to tell me. It pisses me off when people make out that we are the problem as if godus isn't a clusterfuck by every objective measure. 22cans and peter molyneux made this mess against our every objection, is it wrong we demand they fix it and comment when they don't? Their obligation never ends, there is no out clause. No, the community is not the problem as far as the success of the project is concerned. Godus has been a frightful abuse of crowdfunding. I don't see how that makes it acceptable to single out individual members of the team and present them with a 'report card' (Seriously, that is so unbelievably weak!). The community is a serious problem when it comes to treating people with a basic level of human decency. Community relations is a two way street and neither side has been blameless. The get-out clause for 22Cans is that this kind of shitposting manages to piss the canners off beyond their desire to fix anything, they declare bankruptcy, the project is cancelled, everyone goes home, and none of the backers end up better for the experience. Tip: Learn to offer criticism without resorting to childish patronisation.
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Post by Crumpy Six on May 11, 2015 10:46:34 GMT
Well yeah, but framing it as a report card for Konrad makes it seem like he has personally failed, when (as you've said) a lot of what happens is most likely outside of his control. We as a community should also be given an F by these standards, because despite our own best efforts and endless feedback we've been incapable of influencing the development in any constructive way. The point that Konrad has been on board for 6 months in the capacity of lead game designer, and that in the last 3 months 22Cans is supposed to have been working harder than ever before to get Godus into a good condition, is more pertinent. Godus appears to be stagnating, despite endless updates about how much work is allegedly being done on combat (which is a feature that everyone is kind of lukewarm about anyway). I seem to recall that when Konrad first started engaging with us he was asked to justify the focus on combat. He said that he was prioritising work based on quick wins, which is not at all unreasonable, however if combat was supposed to be a "quick win" then Godus is truly up the creek. Combat was also supposed to be something that needed to be in place for various other things that he wanted to achieve with Godus, but whether those goals were multiplayer or a move towards a more RST-type game has never been fully explained. I really, really wish Konrad would come back and speak to us again, or anyone for that matter, and explain just what the hell is going on right now. I think that is where I judge 22cans the most, because since day one they asked us to trust their BS "no plan" design methodology. They seemed to lurch from one monetising opportunity to the next with no greater plan than getting the cash through the door. I think it's fair to give the lead designer a report card. He is the face of the project and should be fronting up. I get he can't magic up resources but he's the face of the project. If his resources are so scarce he can't deliver on anything perhaps he is just a diversion and if he's just a diversion shouldn't we question that? I don't want to be an asshole that throws shit at a person trying to fix this mess but at the same time I can't countenance pretending this mess has a chance of being fixed when all evidence suggests it doesn't. Ultimately if 22cans have any confidence in their ability to deliver they would show us a plan and stop discounting the game. They've done neither which tells me they know it's hopeless and perhaps they are just playing for time until betrayal can be released. Konrad is in a really tough place. He has a lot of ambitions for Godus but is working within a very challenging and restrictive environment, with no way of communicating these limitations to the community and no way of escalating his needs within the company (because they aren't interested and urgently need to focus on the new project to avoid insolvency). When he first started out he engaged very well with the community, which was clearly against the will of 22Cans because he was quickly shut down and hasn't spoken to us since. It was his honesty that led to 22Cans being torn apart in the press and frankly he is probably lucky to have kept his job. Most sickening about the whole thing was how PM took the line that Konrad was mistaken in his claims and had misunderstood the inner workings of the company. Peter tried to encourage people to ignore and disbelieve Konrad, even though all evidence suggests that everything Konrad told us was 100% accurate. It has been clear from the start that Konrad has been a scapegoat for 22Cans, and this will probably continue to be the case. Holding him accountable for the on-going failings of Godus is exactly what PM wants us to do. Then at the end of it all he can say "I made the mistake on entrusting Godus with someone inexperienced but that's how I roll, trying to encourage new talent, guess this one didn't work out, oh well, all I can say is I'm sorry and I won't let it happen again." I imagine the only reason Konrad is sticking with the role is because it's a rare and special opportunity for a guy with his experience, and who knows, something might come of it - if nothing else it's something for the CV. Konrad is the ONLY person in 22Cans who we've seen openly challenging PM and trying to proactively work with the community to improve the game. He's the ONLY person who has been actually honest about what's going on at the studio (and he paid for it). 22Cans is terrible but if we're going to call out anyone individually, let's not pick Konrad.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2015 11:40:37 GMT
The community is a serious problem when it comes to treating people with a basic level of human decency. Community relations is a two way street and neither side has been blameless. Except that one of the sides effectively defrauded the other (and tried to get more) and is still continually being dishonest and has been rather abusive in their own way. A little snarling as 22cans treats their customers as faceless and disposable is to be expected as the least of the problems, especially when 22cans hasn't really done a damn thing to ameliorate the initual situation of them lying to take people's money. What do you expect people to say? "What a lovely little scam! GotUs there. Good show!" That will be the excuse, but it will obviously be as rubbish as anything else 22cans have offered with patronising teases and abuses towards the community that inspired me to set up a lovely collection of how they're doing so on one part. I have even offered advice and watched as even simple suggestions within human capability are ignored by 22cans while they instead played silly buggers with the Daily Dev Updates and utter contempt towards the community to even perform simple Copy+Paste on a Daily basis. Granted, this thread could have been presented a bit better, but it's more folly to pretend that this "report card" isn't going to be how Konrad's work on Godus will be seen by future employers and those who don't know the whole history of Konrad actually trying - to those unfamiliar with the whole thing, he's the one who took over for Peter and progress has effectively stagnated. I know it seems like "singling out Konrad" but right now he's the community's greatest hope for much of anything right now, and I think this thread helps recognise what is in his power and what isn't, and how he's tried, as a handy accessory to some of the infodump threads here for when the media starts really sniffing around again.
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Post by mindless on May 11, 2015 12:17:50 GMT
I really, really wish Konrad would come back and speak to us again, or anyone for that matter, and explain just what the hell is going on right now. I wish it too, but unfortunatly your never going to hear the open and honest opinion that everyone respected from him, He is now subject to NDA which is an absolute travesty in a kickstarter/early access game. Everything that comes out now is filtered through the corporate bullshit-o-meter.
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Post by Qetesh on May 11, 2015 17:45:14 GMT
I do not feel TO BLAME for anything. I am just some smochk stupid enough to pony up the cash.
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