dave@22cans' hypocrisy

As I just told Dave, "apparently" you all need a brush-up on your English-language skills.

As I just told Dave, making an observation is not insulting someone, and merely disliking the observations someone is making doesn't make them a violation of any rules.

I'm not "angry," "taking things out on" anyone, or any of the other things you all have accused me of--that's right, accused.  If my observations are insults, yours are accusations.  I'd wager no one's really angry with this fiasco anymore, anyway--it's hard to be angry with the absurd.

What, exactly, did aynen's post contribute to the discussion?  What about aynen's post wasn't being sarcastic and jerk-ish?

I wasn't aware being uncomfortable with someone's tone was grounds for banning them.  I wasn't aware arbitrary and personal, ever-changing views and definitions of what constitutes "nice" (whatever the hell that means) were grounds for banning someone.  I wasn't aware defending one's self against accusations was now defined as "arguing with a moderator."  Did I miss these lines in the Discussions Rules and Guidelines?

When are you going to start holding your moderators accountable for their immature, ban-baiting un-professionalism?

While you're looking up "apparently," you can add "hypocrisy" to the list of vocabulary--because, apparently, you're struggling with that one as well.

Yes, what's even lovelier is you deliberately taking those examples out of context, publicly posting them in an attempt to discredit, and being sarcastic and insulting in the process.

Thank you for proving my point.

If you want insults, I'll provide you with examples that are clearly and specifically pointed out as examples, just to avoid this kind of immature nonsense.

Do you think being dishonest in this manner is helping the situation?

I would've "lol'ed" before today;  after witnessing the mental gymnastics and willful ignorance on display--even leaving aside the completely reprehensible and despicable un-professionalism--while disputing this un-warranted ban, I'm inclined to say, "that's not a bad idea."

And I'm going to have to finally break down and register here instead of just lurking incessantly...  

You might not have to if 22cans can actually be arsed to do anything this time instead of continuing to pretend that that their abusive policy towards customers doesn't exist.

No, it sounded more like "If you don't want to continue dealing with customers being angry because the company you're now directing has previously fucked them over, then do something about it more substantial than hoping the problem will just go away."

If you haven't noticed, the problem has been getting worse, especially considering the matter of the refund policy that took a decent chunk of time for 22cans to say much about it except to collect it up into one conveniently-ignored thread that apparently only received attention because someone made mention of a bug. Just like all the suggestions threads were obviously ignored when the Steam version of the game became substantially more...mobile, and as a result your customers there feel rightfully scammed, until they got a bit heated, so they could instead be banned for "rage posting".

That is now ultimately your responsibility to handle, not mine. I'm not sure I'd want any position you seem to hint at even if it were paying, because unless company policy were to change there's no reason to sign up for what also appears to be abusive employment in having a couple of moderators continually handle 22cans' PR incompetence.

So is that a yes that policy will change?

Similar to what was noted elsewhere, it isn't so much the interaction (though that is a marked improvement from before) but what is interacted.

Combat and Check the Announcement aren't going to work for too much longer as go-to answers, aren't really doing much at all to be honest as those have been used for quite some time, but that serves to establish a routine new format. What you're going to have to do is give people something new to see or discuss and perhaps the community might be a little more welcoming to seeing some proactive instead of reactive attention.

Likewise, some problems are are going to preclude any kind of solution, and there will not be a quick-fix for anything, nor will there be a one-solution-fits-all. Some problems are going to require different means of handling them than others, and you might not apply the appropriate solution to a problem. These are all possibilities, but what counts the most is appropriate amount of effort given to the problem, interacting with the community - yet the core issue is dissatisfied customers.

So what is going to change about how 22cans interacts with them?

Until that core issue is addressed, it will forever be an elephant in the room everyone is going to be expected to talk around. Antagonising customers until they give reason to be "bantagonised"...isn't quite working out, no...so there might be some work needed on what set them off to become that angry about the game/game's development instead of playing the damn thing.

As I see it, the only thing keeping 22cans remotely on the level here is that they can't censor the forum to the same absurd degree they have killed interaction with their community with upon Steam and their own forums.

What feedback/opinions/suggestions are or have been considered in the making of combat? As far as we've seen, nothing.

Why not list some of them, that sounded interesting and you may have discussed, if you've ignore them all (which is how it feels) look for something that might make the community feel involved.

I'd suggest short clip of gameplay or stills, that might drum up some interest/suggestions then pick one of interest and start a discussion on it. It would really help if we actually felt involved and you might even get some good suggestions.

Sounds like little has changed in all this time.
While I agree that there is no need for the language as quoted above, I also think that dismissing a "less eloquent" remark entirely because someone is annoyed or angry is in poor taste.

So while the way it was said may not have been the best way to go about it. That doesn't mean that the content underneath that veneer of words isn't relevant.
To dismiss the content and focus purely on the tone seems shallow and unprofessional - moreover you're dodging the issue at hand.
People *ARE* angry or annoyed at how things are handled, and dismissing that problem because you don't like the tone in which it is addressed isn't going to solve anything.


Obviously its been a long road. And I can understand that 22cans employees aren't particularly thrilled to be the targets for the ire of the customers.
Yet here you are, representing your product and your company. And short of bandaids few actual fixes have been presented.

Muir and Aynen have always upheld the claim that "if you're just nice enough perhaps things will change" and we've all seen the results of that approach.
Nothing DID change. People tried to be nice and at best it got them a pat on the head.
Yet when people get angry suddenly things started moving.

It is no wonder that people have decided that acting negatively is the better course - because its the only course that has produced results.


As hard as it may be. I would seriously suggest that the 22cans representatives take note of feedback even if its presented less tastefully.
Because if you don't, if you dismiss someone just because they are angry. You're also ignoring the problems at hand.
If you focus purely on bandaids, then the wounds underneath will remain and will fester.

You don't wrap a bandage around a broken leg, you set the bone and you support it.
You don't just put a bandaid on an infected wound - you clean it and air it out and only bandage it after no filth remains.
And when a wound gets too bad, you cut out the necrotic flesh before you can start healing.

Its nasty business... Its not gonna be perfect and clean right away. But it *HAS TO BE DONE*.
If you don't, then no amount of bandages and bandaids are gonna solve the underlying issues.


TL;DR - When someone provides an observation of longrunning bias or other issues. Don't dismiss it purely because you don't like their tone.
By all means remark on the tone with a "Well that wasn't necessary." style response, but ALSO respond to the issue at hand.
If as in this case Aynen has shown certain behaviour (which would not surprise me given his past history...) - it makes sense that someone would be annoyed...
It would not have been the first time that a negative critic gets silenced for breaking the rules but a yes-man gets 'tolerated' for breaking the same rules. And thats a bad attitude.

By all means. If someone breaks the rules - you punish them.
But don't ignore the problems that are present just because people are angry...
SOLVE the problems. Don't just try to treat the symptoms.