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Post by colin22cans on Jun 19, 2015 16:33:16 GMT
 Last week we posted Annah's Combat Art Progress Update and that was well received with fans and the community. This week Konrad has found the time to speak about the design elements of combat. Early Combat Design"My original goal was to integrate combat into Homeworld and Weyworld, but after watching groups of soldiers slug it out in Homeworld in an early build of the combat implementation, it became immediately obvious a number of things were very off. Great care had been taken to create a peaceful Zen like atmosphere in Godus. Everything from the pacing, the visuals and the music and sound effect had been tailored towards this goal. And now these bloodthirsty warriors were ruining it all." Another consideration was when to introduce combat, what role it would play and how. After all, we really want to create engaging wars. The structure and layout of Homeworld simply wasn’t very condusive to introducing combat in a big way. Weyworld was better, but still not ideal and I didn’t want players to have to wait that long to get stuck into battles. Homeworld takes a long time to play through after all. A good solution would be to create a whole new world designed with combat in mind from the ground up allowing us to showcase how this can be more like wars than just combat in the most impactful way while retaining the tranquil gameplay in Homeworld. Example combat mapSo the decision was made to introduce combat in a brand new world. We’ve been experimenting with world size and pacing and right now we’re finding combat works much better on smaller, more concise worlds. The pace of building and expansion (basically all the non-combat stuff) felt much too slow for a combat world, so we’ve also been experimenting with streamlining and speeding up that part of the gameplay. We want players to get stuck into combat quickly without being bogged down too long in extensive village building and sculpting. Example combat mapLooking at the Graphical User Interface We had to make some extensive changes to the control scheme and GUI to accommodate the needs of combat mechanics too. While leashing was a fine way of getting followers about in Homeworld, it proved too slow and imprecise for ordering troops about. We added controls for moving selected Warbands anywhere or having them attack any target with a single click, more akin to what players would expect from an RTS game.In the last update you saw the changes to the GUI. The banners are a great multipurpose feedback and control tool. At a glance you can see how many Warbands you have, what type of soldier they are, what kind of shape they are in and what they are currently doing. Not only that, but clicking one will centre your screen directly on the Warband allowing for fast navigation of the map to where it counts.  Of course, the new GUI features are taking up the space previously occupied by the Timeline button and unlocked cards display. The GUI change, different method of moving followers and various other mechanics adjustments are all contributing to making a combat world very different to Homeworld and Weyworld. Combat is rapidly evolving into an entirely separate mode altogether. The great advantage of this is that by keeping the gameplay experience of Homeworld and combat separate, we don’t have to try to squeeze everything into a single mode and make large GUI, tone and gameplay compromises. We already have systems and the precedent of delivering a different game mode within Godus (Voyages) and it’s becoming more and more attractive to deliver a combat experience in a similar manner. Next Week - Programming Anthony - ProducerProduction time! Next week we'll have the finalisation of this combat sprint and a similarly in-depth look at the programming side of development with Richard.  "I've been stripping the tasks into JIRA for the next sprint and planning the finalisation week for this one. Next week, along with Richard's Programming Update, I'll share the contents of our next sprint plan and a small review of this one." Thanks and catch up soon 22cans team! |
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 19, 2015 17:13:08 GMT
Yay info! Me like.
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Post by eddiemonsta on Jun 19, 2015 18:48:41 GMT
Nice update, thanks.
One question, however. Does this preference for smaller maps with combat scenarios mean that we won't ever have the situation of very large maps with the full sculpting and combat options involved at the same time?
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 19, 2015 19:18:57 GMT
I'm gonna view it as combat phase 1. Or iteration 1 or release 1 or whatever. I think it is a smart move to move outside of homeworld because now itt can be free from the mess that is. This means that there is a possibility to evolve and develop the game from the combat scenario. It could actually become the base for the game to be built upon. Elements that are implemented poorly or not at all Iin homeworld could be rethought, redesigned, redeveloped and implemented into the combat scenario in a new way. That as opposed to trying to shoehorn things into homeworld.
I am enjoying the fresh look on things and am actually looking forward to playtesting it and seeing what kind of potential it may hold and what inspiration it will give me.
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Post by eddiemonsta on Jun 20, 2015 6:05:43 GMT
I'm gonna view it as combat phase 1. Or iteration 1 or release 1 or whatever. I think it is a smart move to move outside of homeworld because now itt can be free from the mess that is. This means that there is a possibility to evolve and develop the game from the combat scenario. It could actually become the base for the game to be built upon. Elements that are implemented poorly or not at all Iin homeworld could be rethought, redesigned, redeveloped and implemented into the combat scenario in a new way. That as opposed to trying to shoehorn things into homeworld. Don't get me wrong Lord Ba'al , I agree with what you say, it's just that the the updates says combat works better on smaller worlds and that the combat gui replaces the normal gui, so at the moment I'm struggling to see how the new and old can co-exist in the same map. That said, this move to smaller islands for combat to take place upon is tickling my nostalgic powermonger fancy in quite a way! As you say, the fresh look at things is very encouraging! |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jun 20, 2015 6:28:23 GMT
I'm gonna view it as combat phase 1. Or iteration 1 or release 1 or whatever. I think it is a smart move to move outside of homeworld because now itt can be free from the mess that is. This means that there is a possibility to evolve and develop the game from the combat scenario. It could actually become the base for the game to be built upon. Elements that are implemented poorly or not at all Iin homeworld could be rethought, redesigned, redeveloped and implemented into the combat scenario in a new way. That as opposed to trying to shoehorn things into homeworld. Don't get me wrong Lord Ba'al , I agree with what you say, it's just that the the updates says combat works better on smaller worlds and that the combat gui replaces the normal gui, so at the moment I'm struggling to see how the new and old can co-exist in the same map. That said, this move to smaller islands for combat to take place upon is tickling my nostalgic powermonger fancy in quite a way! As you say, the fresh look at things is very encouraging! That's kind of the entire basis for this design...That they couldn't find a good way to make them mesh. Whether or not they'll go back and try to figure out a way to mix the two...That's another question entirely, and maybe they will...Maybe even ideally they would. For the moment, however, it seems like it's best to have them developing independently, so that maybe whichever proves more popular might see itself become the more central mode. As it is, I'm still a little wary of this going the way of Voyages though, since it saw many similar ideas at play. A revised UI, smaller maps, ditched focus on building up civilization, emphasis on follower navigation, etc. The major differences here are that instead of a nonviolent, evasive approach, this one is obviously going towards a violent, confrontational one and retaining civilization building, albeit sped up and streamlined. |
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Post by eddiemonsta on Jun 20, 2015 7:15:43 GMT
Gmr Leon I understand your wariness. It's why I asked the question I did. The part where it says that combat worked better in weyworld gives me hope that it's more to do with structured nature of the current worlds, rather than an inabillity to mix all the elements into one map. I can see why this should be separate from homeworld, as that was always supposed to be the safe haven - incidentally, I think the astari should be removed from homeworld too, but that's a different matter - but once you progress from homeworld then all the "skills" your people have learned there should all be accessible to you, the player. I suppose this all comes back to the underlying vision for Godus. What is the end game?
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Post by simon22cans on Jun 20, 2015 8:53:27 GMT
Nice update, thanks. One question, however. Does this preference for smaller maps with combat scenarios mean that we won't ever have the situation of very large maps with the full sculpting and combat options involved at the same time? Sculpting still exists in the same form in the combat maps, but will most likely get used for different / extra purposes. You'll have to sculpt out space for military settlements but also use sculpting for battle tactics, for example building high vantage points that you can scale from your side that maybe the enemy can't etc. Although, AI sculpting...  |
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Post by eddiemonsta on Jun 20, 2015 11:37:19 GMT
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Post by simon22cans on Jun 20, 2015 18:56:02 GMT
Sorry, I missed the other half! I assume you mean about the overall vision of what GODUS is going to be? It's actually almost an impossible question to answer at this stage (sorry if that sounds PR-bullshitty, its not) It would be very easy for me to say its going to be a + b+ c and actually have no clue about how long that is going to take or how much that is going to cost or how the overall game sits and feels in 1, 2, 3 months time etc. Of course, there are a lot of high level ideas (and ideals for that matter) but it would be foolish of me to actually state what they are when they are subject to iteration and change. What we do pretty much have is a good idea of what we think combat is going to be and we think its pretty exciting. This will be documented over the next couple of updates up until the point where it's playable enough for an opt-in build to gather feedback (i've mentioned before that all being well, we're tracking a date 'in late summer' for this at the moment). Hope that helps, Simon |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 3:08:19 GMT
I assume you mean about the overall vision of what GODUS is going to be? It's actually almost an impossible question to answer at this stage (sorry if that sounds PR-bullshitty, its not) It is. So when 22cans can't answer that question...it either looks like they are trying to be dodgy or don't have any idea themselves. That's the funny thing about iterative development - you need to have a goal in mind other than "whatever" for it to work. So please, indulge us with how "easy" it would be by telling us at least an overview of what Godus' overall design is supposed to be. Otherwise...how do you expect people to buy the damn thing? "The devs have no clue of what the end game is going to be nor can tell us...SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MO...I'll take my money elsewhere, actually." That the developers seemingly don't even have an idea of what their own game is supposed to be is a big point of folks wanting their Early Access money back, considering that 22cans isn't playing by the new rules. You might want to check on those. Exciting? How? How much of the utter shite Homeworld would people have to play through in order to get to the OMGAWESOME Combat? What would really, in context of the game, be the point to having this polished display atop of a mountain of crap? These are the questions that...well, if 22cans can't answer them publicly, it doesn't look good at all. |
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Post by eddiemonsta on Jun 21, 2015 7:56:20 GMT
Sorry, I missed the other half! I assume you mean about the overall vision of what GODUS is going to be? It's actually almost an impossible question to answer at this stage (sorry if that sounds PR-bullshitty, its not) It would be very easy for me to say its going to be a + b+ c and actually have no clue about how long that is going to take or how much that is going to cost or how the overall game sits and feels in 1, 2, 3 months time etc. Of course, there are a lot of high level ideas (and ideals for that matter) but it would be foolish of me to actually state what they are when they are subject to iteration and change. What we do pretty much have is a good idea of what we think combat is going to be and we think its pretty exciting. This will be documented over the next couple of updates up until the point where it's playable enough for an opt-in build to gather feedback (i've mentioned before that all being well, we're tracking a date 'in late summer' for this at the moment). Hope that helps, Simon hehe....sorry simon22cans I was just being facetious (hence the wink) because you apparently avoided the part about the large worlds in the original question. The earlier builds (pre v2) had a much larger map, and it always seemed that the reduction in size of the homeworld map was a limitation brought about by mobile, so in essence i was more questioning whether the PC game will ever be unleashed from mobile shortcommings. And fair play for being open with regard to the overall vision question, even if it isn't what we as a community want to hear, but I think this is where the honesty would be appreciated most going forwards. You don't have to say it's "going" to be anything, but it would be nice to hear to what you (22cans) would like it to be. it's understood that things change as development continues, or should that be iterates, and most sane people wouldn't take you to task because of that, but you can't be developing this game by just pinning the tail on the donkey, so to speak. One of the most refreshing things about the combat update is that some of the failures are being mentioned. It allows us to at least understand the decisions made, even if the feature doesn't turn out to be exactly what we were expecting. Sorry, I'm all over the gaff here. I've not long woken up, am slightly hung over, and the caffine hasn't kicked in yet. Peace out all. I'm off to build a deck and some steps while the sun is shining!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 8:24:23 GMT
And fair play for being open with regard to the overall vision question, even if it isn't what we as a community want to hear, but I think this is where the honesty would be appreciated most going forwards. You don't have to say it's "going" to be anything, but it would be nice to hear to what you (22cans) would like it to be. it's understood that things change as development continues, or should that be iterates, and most sane people wouldn't take you to task because of that, but you can't be developing this game by just pinning the tail on the donkey, so to speak. Development by Dartboard is also not exactly in tune with Early Access, a caveat that Simon has used when it comes to discussing some aspects of Godus' development. That works both ways, especially on the parts where the Early Access Rules were changed. That means you have to give people proper expectations of your title - it rightfully warns that you shouldn't make promises that will later bite you in the ass (gee, sound familiar?) but you're selling a game, so people should also expect to know what you're selling as per the product description. Expecting them to buy "22cans' Whatever" without any idea at all of where development is going...now THAT is bonkers, and only sets up another surge of customers dissatisfied enough to want a refund, which is a common topic around this game, enough so that it appears that 22cans DESIRES a bunch of unhappy customers asking for refunds all around. I'm not the one in danger of ruining a publishing deal that offers the most exposure this title has on a regular basis. I think I say this as a part of me does miss the time of Bullfrog that...well, gave us reason to pay attention to Godus in the first place. So there is that. Exactly. If people see that 22cans is trying, then they would be a bit more forgiving. Instead, it looks like most of the dev studio bailed except for some dog and pony show about OMGCombat, which is sounding more like another mini-game from how it works alongside the rest of Godus. Which brings to mind another elephant in the room: So uh...why are the developers continuing to be sequestered from the public except to appear as special guests on The Update Show? The communication and transparency were welcomed, even how dismal how it looked, so there needs to be more open communication. This piecemealed bit, while a bit welcome from the recent little communications blackout, still has a ways to go until it even reaches the same level as before the recent little communications blackout. I am fairly sure that we'd all like to be discussing the overall design with the folks who are actually making the design, versus the director who doesn't appear to want to change much of company policy. (I really wouldn't mind being proven wrong on the latter.) That way 22cans can set expectations of their title properly and be in adherence to the changes in the Early Access Rules. |
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