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Post by colin22cans on Jun 26, 2015 20:20:15 GMT
Following on from last week's update, Godus programmer's Richard & Ryan delve deeper in to the artificial intelligence and warband pathfinding currently being tweaked during the current development sprint and there’s also a round up from Producer Anthony Commander AIRichard has found time to go through just what the Commander AI is, in a bit more detail than before. "Something we haven't talked much about is the “Commander AI” - this is the enemy god, the entity plotting and conniving to bring your fledgling society to its knees. Because of its huge scope, the Commander AI is something we'll be evolving and iterating on quite frequently as we proceed with our combat work. For now, however, let's talk about how the AI will want to start a game."
Commander AI - Before
"Citadels (the new name for military settlements) are key to combat. Having bigger citadels means you can have bigger warbands and more of them, giving you a substantial combat advantage. To make large citadels though, you need a lot of free space. As such, the AI will do its best to quickly clear rocks and trees and flatten land."
"Like you though, the AI has limited belief, so it has has to constantly weigh up whether it's more cost-effective for it to sculpt a piece of land, spending belief now to gain much more belief from any abodes built on it in the long-term. Or if it should instead use that belief on god powers, to try to cripple you in the early game."
"Nothing's as simple as it seems though. Experienced Godus players will be considering a lot of things as they sculpt. Will this sculpt make it easier for enemy warbands to get in attack range of my citadel? Or will it isolate my builders, preventing them from making more abodes? These are the sort of pitfalls that it's really easy for the AI to fall into, particularly in an extremely malleable world such as that of Godus, where the environment can be changed not only by the AI, but by the player as well."
Commander AI - After
"Our ultimate aim is to provide the player with an AI which is highly flexible and capable of providing both an enjoyable experience for new players and challenging & exciting gameplay for Godus veterans, over a long period of time. Getting the AI to this stage has been really enjoyable, so I'm looking forward to having more to tell and show you as we progress."Pathfinding AIProgrammer, Ryan spills the beans on the warband pathfinding found within the game. "Pathfinding already exists in Godus and the followers often find themselves navigating through the world thanks to the pre-existing system. For combat, we’ve had to slightly redesign that system to allow for warbands to move in groups as they navigate across the maps on the player or the enemies command."
"Like a real army, the warbands move in formations by keeping together as they move across the maps and bunching together to traverse obstacles such as rocks, abodes and the terrain. Therefore, players will get an understanding that the warband should be considered one unit but that each of the members of that unit are individual soldiers following a single command."Anthony's Sprint Review“This sprint allowed us to fix some critical issues in the warbands pathfinding system. They can now stay in formation most of the time when moving on the map which is clearly the kind of result we wanted to achieve." "The objective now is to make them move naturally and react dynamically to any change in the map (sculpting or AI actions). As one of the fundamentals actions in Combat, we’ll make sure to spend as much time as necessary on warbands movements: fun is clearly not an option when it comes to this kind of mechanics.” Next WeekNext week we'll be looking at giving you a unique insight into our next development sprint! As an added bonus, Annah has updated the combat art we previously released to reflect the progress made on the archer models. Thanks 22cans
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Post by hardly on Jun 26, 2015 21:29:23 GMT
Huge detail in here that I didn't know - AI wil sculpt. Shifts the game towards AI and human playing on the same basis. How different is that to the astari. If you pull it off you will get a lot of kudos from me.
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 26, 2015 22:07:23 GMT
Huge detail in here that I didn't know - AI wil sculpt. Shifts the game towards AI and human playing on the same basis. How different is that to the astari. If you pull it off you will get a lot of kudos from me. Indeed. And not only that, we now now for sure that they are attempting to create a worthy AI opponent instead of human vs human combat. I think the update shows a little bit of just how much work is involved in creating such an AI. Of course there would still be a whole lot more information on it that could be shared which would be mighty interesting, such as more in depth info on how the AI will attempt to prioritize its options.
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Post by hardly on Jun 26, 2015 22:32:50 GMT
Huge detail in here that I didn't know - AI wil sculpt. Shifts the game towards AI and human playing on the same basis. How different is that to the astari. If you pull it off you will get a lot of kudos from me. Indeed. And not only that, we now now for sure that they are attempting to create a worthy AI opponent instead of human vs human combat. I think the update shows a little bit of just how much work is involved in creating such an AI. Of course there would still be a whole lot more information on it that could be shared which would be mighty interesting, such as more in depth info on how the AI will attempt to prioritize its options. I'm so conflicted about this. On one hand I think its so great that they are aiming big, on the other hand I think there is no way they can pull this off. The later may seem harsh but I hope they are successful. It will certainly reflect very well on their rather green design and programming team.
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 26, 2015 22:50:37 GMT
Indeed it would. I feel that they are going to pull it off. I think all those months of working on combat will pay off.
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Post by colin22cans on Jun 26, 2015 23:04:42 GMT
Huge detail in here that I didn't know - AI wil sculpt. Shifts the game towards AI and human playing on the same basis. How different is that to the astari. If you pull it off you will get a lot of kudos from me. Indeed. And not only that, we now now for sure that they are attempting to create a worthy AI opponent instead of human vs human combat. I think the update shows a little bit of just how much work is involved in creating such an AI. Of course there would still be a whole lot more information on it that could be shared which would be mighty interesting, such as more in depth info on how the AI will attempt to prioritize its options. I hope that really does come across in these updates - the amount of work is sometimes hard to gauge from an external point of view. I'm slowly starting to really see the amount of time/knowledge and concentration that's required for programming.
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 26, 2015 23:14:52 GMT
Indeed. And not only that, we now now for sure that they are attempting to create a worthy AI opponent instead of human vs human combat. I think the update shows a little bit of just how much work is involved in creating such an AI. Of course there would still be a whole lot more information on it that could be shared which would be mighty interesting, such as more in depth info on how the AI will attempt to prioritize its options. I hope that really does come across in these updates - the amount of work is sometimes hard to gauge from an external point of view. I'm slowly starting to really see the amount of time/knowledge and concentration that's required for programming. It is indeed starting to show. I would love to hear more in depth stuff from the programmers though. Like how they are modelling the AI and what kind of pitfalls they have come across and how they managed to circumvent or solve those issues. The techier the better, but I don't need to see the actual lines of code if you know what I mean.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jun 27, 2015 5:19:37 GMT
I'm a little confused...Is the warband pathfinding they're working on related to warbands overall (i.e. between player/commander), and has that just proven to be a sticking point or...? 'Cause we've heard about that one for a few months now. The commander AI is the really new stuff here, and that's cool to read about it, but it's a little curious/worrisome that pathfinding is proving to be a stubborn problem yet again.
From the few early tests I did with the rough start of the warbands, they seemed to work okayish where level terrain and some slight hills were concerned, so...Yeah. I guess they must have bugged out on more uneven terrain that I didn't notice because the game doesn't really encourage keeping uneven terrain at all, something being followed up and discouraged even more with combat, it sounds like.
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Post by simon22cans on Jun 29, 2015 10:09:16 GMT
I'm a little confused...Is the warband pathfinding they're working on related to warbands overall (i.e. between player/commander), and has that just proven to be a sticking point or...? 'Cause we've heard about that one for a few months now. The commander AI is the really new stuff here, and that's cool to read about it, but it's a little curious/worrisome that pathfinding is proving to be a stubborn problem yet again. From the few early tests I did with the rough start of the warbands, they seemed to work okayish where level terrain and some slight hills were concerned, so...Yeah. I guess they must have bugged out on more uneven terrain that I didn't notice because the game doesn't really encourage keeping uneven terrain at all, something being followed up and discouraged even more with combat, it sounds like. We're now able to start seeing some of the more complicated situations where the player and the AI can deploy multiple warbands across a war zone and then have both the player and AI sculpt various traps and hurdles that then give the AI and pathfinding lots to think about. It does allow you to goad the enemy onto thin strips of land surrounded by water and then cut them off though... On completely flat terrain it would become more of a race to deploy and a case of just outnumbering. By getting the pathfinding and AI to work on complex, sculptable terrain its possible to use smart positional tactics to outwit the enemy. Its going to take a fair amount of iteration to get it flawless and more importantly make sure that it remains fun and not tedious.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 13:07:49 GMT
Has there been any information about how this fits into the actual game? Will combat be part of the "Homeworld"? Will it be part of separate combat scenarios or battle maps? I don't see it fit into both. But maybe it was written somewhere here in the forum.
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Post by simon22cans on Jun 29, 2015 13:25:41 GMT
Has there been any information about how this fits into the actual game? Will combat be part of the "Homeworld"? Will it be part of separate combat scenarios or battle maps? I don't see it fit into both. But maybe it was written somewhere here in the forum. It was written about in the last design update from Konrad. Essentially combat will be taking place in new maps that are more bespoke for battles / wars rather than the existing maps of Homeworld and Weyworld. The size of the maps will change the way the player approaches a battle too i.e. smaller maps will promote a more smash and grab, frenetic paced fight and slightly larger maps will allow more tactical attacks. It also means that fighting doesn't need to be completely governed by the existing resource systems that exist in Godus. EDIT: Here you go: steamcommunity.com/games/232810/announcements/detail/153467963877744999Cheers,
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 15:00:41 GMT
Has there been any information about how this fits into the actual game? Will combat be part of the "Homeworld"? Will it be part of separate combat scenarios or battle maps? I don't see it fit into both. But maybe it was written somewhere here in the forum. It was written about in the last design update from Konrad. Essentially combat will be taking place in new maps that are more bespoke for battles / wars rather than the existing maps of Homeworld and Weyworld. The size of the maps will change the way the player approaches a battle too i.e. smaller maps will promote a more smash and grab, frenetic paced fight and slightly larger maps will allow more tactical attacks. It also means that fighting doesn't need to be completely governed by the existing resource systems that exist in Godus. EDIT: Here you go: steamcommunity.com/games/232810/announcements/detail/153467963877744999Cheers, Ok, thank you.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jun 29, 2015 15:51:36 GMT
I'm a little confused...Is the warband pathfinding they're working on related to warbands overall (i.e. between player/commander), and has that just proven to be a sticking point or...? 'Cause we've heard about that one for a few months now. The commander AI is the really new stuff here, and that's cool to read about it, but it's a little curious/worrisome that pathfinding is proving to be a stubborn problem yet again. From the few early tests I did with the rough start of the warbands, they seemed to work okayish where level terrain and some slight hills were concerned, so...Yeah. I guess they must have bugged out on more uneven terrain that I didn't notice because the game doesn't really encourage keeping uneven terrain at all, something being followed up and discouraged even more with combat, it sounds like. We're now able to start seeing some of the more complicated situations where the player and the AI can deploy multiple warbands across a war zone and then have both the player and AI sculpt various traps and hurdles that then give the AI and pathfinding lots to think about. It does allow you to goad the enemy onto thin strips of land surrounded by water and then cut them off though... On completely flat terrain it would become more of a race to deploy and a case of just outnumbering. By getting the pathfinding and AI to work on complex, sculptable terrain its possible to use smart positional tactics to outwit the enemy. Its going to take a fair amount of iteration to get it flawless and more importantly make sure that it remains fun and not tedious. Hrm...I can see some of that. However, in my experience, I found myself having to stop and start between sculpting and mobilizing warbands to attack or move anywhere...I'm guessing maybe the ability to better move multiple ones at once has led to them bumping up against each other more alongside simultaneous sculpting? Although, come to think of it, do they clip through each other...? Either way, if it's looking like it might work even better than the existing follower pathfinding, it's gotta be somewhat worthwhile. Regarding isolating the enemy...Shouldn't that be countered by the enemy AI simply sculpting them a new path...? Or is that describing part of why we're not seeing it yet? =P
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