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Post by totallytim on Jul 4, 2015 22:39:59 GMT
I don't think that was meant for you specifically but for 22Cans as a company. I'm afraid it's not clear. And I'm afraid I was right. New face, same tune.
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 4, 2015 23:18:28 GMT
I'm afraid it's not clear. Being obtuse will do you no favors. PR people seem to have this nasty habit of forgetting public relations is, in fact, "public relations", and not "deflect and deny" or "whitewash when possible". As I saw it, colin22cans was simply offering his point of view which as an insider is likely to differ from an outside perspective. Why would that be deflecting or denying?
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Post by hardly on Jul 4, 2015 23:30:01 GMT
Being obtuse will do you no favors. PR people seem to have this nasty habit of forgetting public relations is, in fact, "public relations", and not "deflect and deny" or "whitewash when possible". As I saw it, colin22cans was simply offering his point of view which as an insider is likely to differ from an outside perspective. Why would that be deflecting or denying? He is hardly likely to cop to being a member of a merry band of money obsessed psychopaths. Nobody is the villain in their own story.
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Lord Ba'al
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 4, 2015 23:36:20 GMT
As I saw it, colin22cans was simply offering his point of view which as an insider is likely to differ from an outside perspective. Why would that be deflecting or denying? He is hardly likely to cop to being a member of a merry band of money obsessed psychopaths. Nobody is the villain in their own story. The view that colin22cans has on the issue and the view that we have on the issue are not mutually exclusive. Both have their own merits.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 0:45:29 GMT
He is hardly likely to cop to being a member of a merry band of money obsessed psychopaths. Nobody is the villain in their own story. The view that colin22cans has on the issue and the view that we have on the issue are not mutually exclusive. Both have their own merits. There is something to be said for the idea that it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. It is fine and dandy for a PR man to say "We understand your concerns and we'll have open communication", but it is another thing for him to admit that his company has done anything wrong. We have no idea what "view" 22Can's new PR man has on the "issue" other than the company line of they're working hard to develop Godus on PC and community interaction and all that. If Collin feels I have inappropriately portrayed his stance on 22Cans' shady business practices and Godus' development, he is free to correct me. Or voice a stance on the matter in the first place, since there's been so much time for him to become familiarized with the situation. Like I said, being obtuse will do him no favors, nor Simon for that matter. Playing coy about how anyone could see Godus' development as misleading or unethical really doesn't work when everyone knows you're fully aware of the issue, extensively documented as it was in the media. If somebody refuses to acknowledge their company's prior mistakes and then gives the old company line with a new twist, while producing the same results, what do you call that? I mean, Simon and Collin's "new" attitude is available right here, if you want an example.
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Post by totallytim on Jul 5, 2015 1:28:51 GMT
Being obtuse will do you no favors. PR people seem to have this nasty habit of forgetting public relations is, in fact, "public relations", and not "deflect and deny" or "whitewash when possible". As I saw it, colin22cans was simply offering his point of view which as an insider is likely to differ from an outside perspective. Why would that be deflecting or denying? I am accusing 22Cans of sharing certain similarities to EA and Ubisoft. I think petermolyneux meant that even though all 5 other people here realised who was the target of my comment, colin tried to steer the conversation from "22cans is as bad if not worse than EA/Ubisoft" to "why are you attacking me personally?". This wouldn't be an isolated case. It's quite common for mods and employees (on the Steam forums) to reply in a similar and sometimes condescending manner when they aren't entirely ignoring the issue at hand. It just looks like they're having a "bit of fun" with the people who've seen nothing but a fake smile and the middle finger from them since 2012.
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 5, 2015 1:55:17 GMT
I don't see anything wrong with colin22cans' post. If that had been written by any one of us nobody would have responded to it in this way. It seems that people are using his post as an excuse to attack him while there obviously wasn't anything malicious about it. The topic at hand was the idea of Molyneux for developers to test each others games, not the entire history of 22cans' deceit, which is what this is now being turned into. Please read back the whole thread from the start and then feel free to tell me that I'm wrong and that I'm towing the company line.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 2:14:29 GMT
I don't think there is anything wrong with Colin's initial post either... but the evolution of the topic based on his following responses isn't unfathomable. That said, I would like steer this thread back to the intended topic. I'm sure we'll be re-visiting this in the coming months, assuming some sort of NDA among industry-dude-bro-buddy-friends doesn't kill the meta-discussion entirely. I'll certainly be back here if any goodies makes it through the grapevine.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 2:35:11 GMT
As I saw it, colin22cans was simply offering his point of view which as an insider is likely to differ from an outside perspective. Why would that be deflecting or denying? I am accusing 22Cans of sharing certain similarities to EA and Ubisoft. I think petermolyneux meant that even though all 5 other people here realised who was the target of my comment, colin tried to steer the conversation from "22cans is as bad if not worse than EA/Ubisoft" to "why are you attacking me personally?". This wouldn't be an isolated case. It's quite common for mods and employees (on the Steam forums) to reply in a similar and sometimes condescending manner when they aren't entirely ignoring the issue at hand. It just looks like they're having a "bit of fun" with the people who've seen nothing but a fake smile and the middle finger from them since 2012. Yes. Even if there are issues you absolutely, positively must be obtuse on, there's no need for glibness. I don't see anything wrong with colin22cans' post. If that had been written by any one of us nobody would have responded to it in this way. It seems that people are using his post as an excuse to attack him while there obviously wasn't anything malicious about it. The topic at hand was the idea of Molyneux for developers to test each others games, not the entire history of 22cans' deceit, which is what this is now being turned into. Please read back the whole thread from the start and then feel free to tell me that I'm wrong and that I'm towing the company line. Nobody wants to derail the thread. I think totallytim summed up it up quite nicely. Beyond that, there's nothing except perhaps my confusion at the idea of Collin ever expressing a "view" on the "issue". Rather silly of me, but do tell if you happen to find it, I'm sure I'm not the only one interested. Anyhow, the Trial's testing phase will probably feature a temporary easing of the inevitable freemium fun, so it'll be interesting to see how monetization will be effected by feedback.
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Post by totallytim on Jul 5, 2015 2:41:15 GMT
I'd like to clarify. I'm not attacking colin personally and I don't think anyone else is. He's representing 22cans and it's frustrating to see that they are obviously present, but are seemingly ignoring the core issues of the project called Godus. And finally sometimes the replies of their staff members tend to evoke certain emotions, whether it's intentional or not. But you're right, this probably isn't the place to discuss the actions of 22cans employees, so I apologise for starting the off-topic branch of this thread.
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Lord Ba'al
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Posts: 6,260
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 5, 2015 8:03:58 GMT
All is well in the world again. Let's go back to dissing Peter Molyneux's idea. Or if you happen to think it has merit feel free to express that too.
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Post by greay on Jul 5, 2015 11:25:17 GMT
All is well in the world again. Let's go back to dissing Peter Molyneux's idea. Or if you happen to think it has merit feel free to express that too. Ignoring my views on PM / 22cans / Godus, there's nothing revolutionary about the idea, and it is a good one. Getting critiques by your peers is immensely valuable. My experience is more as an artist than as a developer, but with a peer critique (as long as it's a good & honest one) you get 3 things that you won't get all together anywhere else. First, you get the basic as a view/player critique. This you'll get with any beta testing or showing. It's very useful on its own. Second, you get a critique as someone who knows you. This is incredibly valuable, and it's substantially different from a basic blind critique. Someone who knows you well will have a good sense of what interests & drives you, and will be able to offer more directed & useful feedback by virtue of that. They'll also be able to offer suggestions that someone who doesn't have that background wouldn't be able to. And finally, critique as someone knowledgeable in the field. This will be more technical, and deeper than someone outside the field. In addition, it's this last group that will best be prepared (with practice) to offer all three. Good critiquing is hard. There's no guaranteeing what PM is proposing will actually result in good critiques, but if they do it & turn it into a regular thing, there's a decent chance it'll only result in better games from all involved.
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Post by morsealworth on Jul 5, 2015 15:19:59 GMT
All is well in the world again. Let's go back to dissing Peter Molyneux's idea. Or if you happen to think it has merit feel free to express that too. Ignoring my views on PM / 22cans / Godus, there's nothing revolutionary about the idea, and it is a good one. Getting critiques by your peers is immensely valuable. My experience is more as an artist than as a developer, but with a peer critique (as long as it's a good & honest one) you get 3 things that you won't get all together anywhere else. First, you get the basic as a view/player critique. This you'll get with any beta testing or showing. It's very useful on its own. Second, you get a critique as someone who knows you. This is incredibly valuable, and it's substantially different from a basic blind critique. Someone who knows you well will have a good sense of what interests & drives you, and will be able to offer more directed & useful feedback by virtue of that. They'll also be able to offer suggestions that someone who doesn't have that background wouldn't be able to. And finally, critique as someone knowledgeable in the field. This will be more technical, and deeper than someone outside the field. In addition, it's this last group that will best be prepared (with practice) to offer all three. Good critiquing is hard. There's no guaranteeing what PM is proposing will actually result in good critiques, but if they do it & turn it into a regular thing, there's a decent chance it'll only result in better games from all involved. I should add that the most often mistakes aren't just random and it's exactly the reason they can't be rectified alone - they fall into blind zone of sorts. SO yes, peer review is especially valuable exactly because they can see what you're trying to do, but not all your blind zones overlap, just like a well-lit room will have less shadows if it has more than one lamp or at least a mirror on the wall.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 1:41:02 GMT
All is well in the world again. Let's go back to dissing Peter Molyneux's idea. Or if you happen to think it has merit feel free to express that too. I think peer review is a fantastic practice, I grew up in a household with a research biochemist, and peer review not only kept people honest, it was invaluable for R&D. That said, I think it's an even more fantastic idea for a studio that has alienated the majority of their fan/customer base. When you throw away your reputation like 22Cans did, asking like minded (mobile oriented?) studios for feedback might be the only place you'd find unbiased, free alpha/beta/gamma testers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 17:19:36 GMT
So will it be Peter Molyneux actually valuing feedback or ignoring his own backers and community as he has done regularly for Godus? What will he do when the reaction is that 22cans should probably have kept the studio upon Godus so the backer and customer satisfaction levels weren't notoriously poor everywhere but where the game is offered for free? Even other developers are currently pointing this out for Godus, to practically minimal response from 22cans about quite important issues the community has: steamcommunity.com/app/232810/discussions/0/530645446317146001/Survey Says: this bit about The Trail is just 22cans PR Horseshit Yet another publicity stunt taken from what peers do anyways (as greay pointed out). Peter Molyneux couldn't keep track of one fellow for Curiosity/Godus and offer him any input into the game's development, much less the entire Godus community, so what use will this be? Wheeee, reinventing the wheel and making yet another game developer clique! This might have been original...for the 80s, and a bit of the 90s, but currently with the state of Godus it is really just a sad cry for any attention and to basically establish a hugbox of developers to tap other communities to whiteknight for completely different steaming piles of Godus.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2015 17:57:10 GMT
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