|
|
Post by colin22cans on Jul 23, 2015 17:00:33 GMT
 Richard wanted to really go into detail about the problems and obstacles faced with the Mustering Fields implementation in the upcoming combat release. Mustering Fields"As Konrad mentioned in our last update, mustering fields are our solution to finding a stable spawning point for troops in the ever-changing world of Godus. In our initial implementation, troops would exit the citadel one-by-one and then get into formation at their spawn point. But how do we find a suitable spawn point?"
"The very nature of Godus makes computational geometry problems very challenging. Citadels are likely to be surrounded by lots of abodes, which means that it's difficult to find a large, empty space close by. As such, I decided to implement an algorithm that's been well-documented in acamedia to solve the largest empty sphere problem (although it's more like largest empty circle in our case, as we're only considering two dimensions)."
"The algorithm involves performing a Delaunay triangulation (computed using the Bowyer-Watson algorithm) – this provides the dual graph of a Voronoi diagram, which we can then use to find candidates for our spawning point. This implementation took me some time to pull together, but it did bring benefits. Over time, however, we started to feel that the algorithm alone couldn't quite bring us the level of robustness we wanted."
"Finding the largest empty space was great, but – again, as per the nature of Godus – it turns out that areas which are prime spaces for spawning warbands also happen to really attractive to builders looking to set-up their new home. It wasn't uncommon that we'd select a spawn point, only for an abode to be built on it before the troops could get there."
"Another problem was that, in the basic implementation of the algorithm, all obstacles (e.g. abodes, rocks) are considered as infinitely-small points. This is a fine assumption to make when all our obstacles are of roughly the same size. However, when some obstacles are much larger (for example, in the instance of citadels), this becomes highly problematic, as illustrated by the diagram."
"These challenges aren't insurmountable – I could have modified the algortihm to take account of these factors, but whenever we get to the stage that we realise that our existing solution is starting to look inappropriate for the task, we like to sit down and discuss if there's anything else we could do instead."
"Mustering fields seemed to be the answer. The player will still be able to set a rally point for their troops, but if that player elects not to or if that point becomes invalid, we know we've got an area which will always be free of obstacles and able to accommodate a war band."
"We also had some reservations about gameplay issues created by having troops spawn individually – for example, they were very easy to spawn camp if your enemy had a warband nearby."
"The settlement compression has been one of my very favourite aspects of Godus. Procedural stuff really interests me and I always found watching my abodes slide together to create a goliath settlement to be a really satisfying feeling."
"We decided that we wanted mustering fields to be an integral part of this settlement compression. Compared to the normal abodes which participate in settlement compression, the mustering fields have certain properties which mean that a lot of special rules had to be written specifically for them:"
"If you're a programmer reading this and you find yourself thinking “But that's easy – I know just how to do all that!”, you need to remember that it's not just a case of writing the functionality, but of making it work well within a very large codebase which represents several years of work and simply wasn't written with mustering fields in mind!"
"As things stand right now, we're getting closer to having a complete implementation and I'm really looking forward to when we're able to provide you with the first build of combat, so you can try it out for yourself." |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 17:12:20 GMT
What a convoluted and excessive way to...basically clone the Army Camp from Clash of Clans.
*facedesks*
So how long did this take to sort out, and what is next? Toying with half a dozen algorithms to suddenly figure out how to make a settlement be able to feed itself without their God Click Janitor?
Edit: My apologies for the tone of this, and I wasn't my intention to make comment about the work of the developers themselves - which I have to note that they've been busy for so few, and hope that they're able to work on something else for a change to avoid burnout.
I'm just quite certain that they could have avoided mistakes and could have a better cohesion of what Combat is supposed to be/work like in the game as a whole if there were some plans or overall development direction, to follow with how Combat is often described as "bolted on" and the like.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deth on Jul 23, 2015 17:25:39 GMT
Well hopefully the code used to be able to add the mustering fields will be able to be used to add other structures and functionality to settlements. Like personally I would love if they did away with the current farm and mine settlements and just have farms and mines that could be added to a settlement like the mustering field.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 17:44:40 GMT
Well hopefully the code used to be able to add the mustering fields will be able to be used to add other structures and functionality to settlements. Like personally I would love if they did away with the current farm and mine settlements and just have farms and mines that could be added to a settlement like the mustering field. Hopefully that is something of what they meant by "the ever-changing world of Godus". Really? Changing, eh? Looks like everything else of the "ever-changing world" stopped so they could have a Combat "sprint" for over half a year. Well...except for Pastel Cake Layers Day. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 19:53:34 GMT
[To Be Ignored] Feedback from the Steam thread:On the other hand, the announcement has four upvotes, so I guess Colin has his excuse for 22Cans ignoring community feedback already. It appears that the amount of accounts upvoting these announcements is several times the number of active community members on Steam and Proboards. Interesting. |
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 23, 2015 21:46:56 GMT
I just want to say I think it was a bad choice to have that picture for Konrad because it makes him look like Molyneux with that disgusting and annoying sad excuse for tobacco in his mouth. I personally detest those things coz they produce huge clouds of chemical stink that other people have to suffer because supposedly it is not harmful.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 22:33:43 GMT
I just want to say I think it was a bad choice to have that picture for Konrad because it makes him look like Molyneux with that disgusting and annoying sad excuse for tobacco in his mouth. I personally detest those things coz they produce huge clouds of chemical stink that other people have to suffer because supposedly it is not harmful. |
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 23, 2015 23:06:22 GMT
I just want to say I think it was a bad choice to have that picture for Konrad because it makes him look like Molyneux with that disgusting and annoying sad excuse for tobacco in his mouth. I personally detest those things coz they produce huge clouds of chemical stink that other people have to suffer because supposedly it is not harmful. Haven't you seen any of the 22cans video updates? Molyneux was tugging on one of those things in pretty much every single one of them or at the very least holding it. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 0:26:25 GMT
Haven't you seen any of the 22cans video updates? Molyneux was tugging on one of those things in pretty much every single one of them or at the very least holding it. Ah, I see what you mean. |
|
|
|
Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 24, 2015 2:20:41 GMT
So...What exactly constitutes "ground level"? Is that whatever layer the settlement's on? Also, am I mistaken, or has the settlement compression seen some adjustment to allow for the buildings not to be just one bland blob of clipping abodes all the time?
Oh, and last time you mentioned enemy AI sculpting...Could you guys maybe go more into that, as well as where our more interesting god powers come into play? Not that I don't get kicks out of seeing tiny dudes bash each others' heads in, but I can see way better versions of that in other games. Your selling point is this whole thing where I get to hurl meteors, tear the earth asunder, whip the winds and the seas into swirling columns and pits of destruction, sweep the lands with fire and water, and so on and so forth. Where's the only unique part to this combat?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 4:42:42 GMT
So...What exactly constitutes "ground level"? Is that whatever layer the settlement's on? Also, am I mistaken, or has the settlement compression seen some adjustment to allow for the buildings not to be just one bland blob of clipping abodes all the time? Oh, and last time you mentioned enemy AI sculpting...Could you guys maybe go more into that, as well as where our more interesting god powers come into play? Not that I don't get kicks out of seeing tiny dudes bash each others' heads in, but I can see way better versions of that in other games. Your selling point is this whole thing where I get to hurl meteors, tear the earth asunder, whip the winds and the seas into swirling columns and pits of destruction, sweep the lands with fire and water, and so on and so forth. Where's the only unique part to this combat? The interesting bit here is that god powers and pets were the only "combat" in Black & White. The sequel had both PC-centric combat in the actual game and god powers, so seeing this sterile mobile rubbish after all these years is a rather distinct disappointment. |
|
|
|
Post by morsealworth on Jul 24, 2015 4:58:03 GMT
I just want to say I think it was a bad choice to have that picture for Konrad because it makes him look like Molyneux with that disgusting and annoying sad excuse for tobacco in his mouth. I personally detest those things coz they produce huge clouds of chemical stink that other people have to suffer because supposedly it is not harmful. I hate those too, though I must admit those would still be better than other stink caused by burning actual tobacco. You know, all that disgusting toxic and radioactive crap that can harm you even after hours of venting the room? |
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 24, 2015 10:32:20 GMT
I just want to say I think it was a bad choice to have that picture for Konrad because it makes him look like Molyneux with that disgusting and annoying sad excuse for tobacco in his mouth. I personally detest those things coz they produce huge clouds of chemical stink that other people have to suffer because supposedly it is not harmful. I hate those too, though I must admit those would still be better than other stink caused by burning actual tobacco. You know, all that disgusting toxic and radioactive crap that can harm you even after hours of venting the room? That's why one does that outside. |
|
|
|
Post by morsealworth on Jul 24, 2015 14:27:22 GMT
Not everywhere, I'm afraid.And even outside the smoke's so thick you need a gas mask if you can afford it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 16:24:58 GMT
I just want to say I think it was a bad choice to have that picture for Konrad because it makes him look like Molyneux with that disgusting and annoying sad excuse for tobacco in his mouth. I personally detest those things coz they produce huge clouds of chemical stink that other people have to suffer because supposedly it is not harmful. You know what having this kind of picture says, much like Peter doing the same in his videos as you have mentioned? Stress levels through the roof. Which I can fully understand happening if you've got someone trying to reconcile the design of the shite base game with whatever 22cans is supposed to be hoping for with this absurdly-long "sprint" on Combat. And he's a former intern put into a lead designer position for team of 6 people of a 25-man studio with a lot of press and community pressure to deliver while the studio bureaucratically and systematically fails him, after Peter put him into position as fall guy and pulled a runner to The Trail - the Peter's Profuse 'Pologies show became Konrad's Korner. Still not f***ing cool, 22cans. No wonder Konrad seems like he's on that thing a lot in those pics. |
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 24, 2015 16:56:51 GMT
I really wish we could stop shitting on every scrap of information and focus more on the positive elements of them.
|
|
|
|
Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 24, 2015 17:13:20 GMT
I really wish we could stop shitting on every scrap of information and focus more on the positive elements of them. I was just about to say something similar - that's why I mostly refrain from commenting these days; I don't have anything very positive or constructive to say at this point. I do appreciate the updates, to be sure, and they are interesting to read. It's nice to see some sort of "progress" even it it's not significant. Though I am long since burned out on this combat thing. If they had put this much time into the initial design, or even the timeline or settlements, imagine where we would be today. We certainly would likely be less crass about it all. Lets hope whatever comes after combat gets at least just as much attention. |
|
|
|
Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 24, 2015 17:18:48 GMT
The mustering fields mechanism does seem like it may open up more possibilities for handling the resource structures, though. It's unfortunate it took this long for such a device to get worked out, but it has potential. Still, other games had been doing similar stuff for more than a decade, so I dunno why they didn't figure this out sooner.
|
|
|
|
Post by Aynen on Jul 24, 2015 20:01:55 GMT
I really wish we could stop shitting on every scrap of information and focus more on the positive elements of them. I was just about to say something similar - that's why I mostly refrain from commenting these days; I don't have anything very positive or constructive to say at this point. I do appreciate the updates, to be sure, and they are interesting to read. It's nice to see some sort of "progress" even it it's not significant. Though I am long since burned out on this combat thing. If they had put this much time into the initial design, or even the timeline or settlements, imagine where we would be today. We certainly would likely be less crass about it all. Lets hope whatever comes after combat gets at least just as much attention. 13th, that IS a positive and constructive thing to say. Telling them (or us mods, for that matter) when they do something right is quite possibly even more important than telling them what they do wrong. Can't have much of a sense of direction otherwise. So I'm glad you still chose to chime in, in spite of being burned out about the whole thing. Thanks! |
|
|
|
Post by Qetesh on Jul 25, 2015 0:38:34 GMT
This still feels nothing like a Populous successor to me, sorry if that is negative, but combat does not finish the game. I seem to recall several times that they would not add combat in and call it done too. Now it is just Mafia Wars and Farmville mixed together.
|
|
