Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 26, 2015 16:15:10 GMT
Because of all the commotion and other things I haven't actually been able to respond to this until now. The first question that pops into my mind when reading this is "Why do the citadels need an empty space in the surrounding area to generate units?". Couldn't the citadel have some sort of built-in space for that? Following on that, does this have anything to do with the potential size of warbands? If there were a certain restriction on the maximum size of a warband then that would give a minimum amount of free space that would/could be necessary in order to spawn that warband. What is the maximum amount of units in a warband? That looks like a pretty comfortable chair Richard is sitting in. Like a seat in a race car. Although for me that would not be comfortable as I'm to big to properly fit in one. Tell us more about the chair. Good picture by the way. I would like to hear more about the Delaunay triangulation and the Bowyer-Watson algorithm and the Voronoi diagram and how you were using those. I know I could google it but I am lazy so I won't. I would like to hear it from you guys. Preferably from Richard himself, so if you could ask him to make a forum account I'd be much obliged. I would like to know what these terms mean in general and how you were using these things in particular for your use-case. I would like to know what these "benefits" were that they brought you. Then I would like to hear why this algorithm was not sufficient for your use-case. Why is it a problem that a building tends to be built on a spawn point before the troops could get there? Couldn't you simply reserve that space so that builders won't build on it? Are builders simply assholes who disregard instructions?  This actually brings to the attention that the whole builder mechanic could use some work. It never made sense to me that the player has to click on a building in order for some person to come out who then runs to the nearest open space and starts building a house. It doesn't make sense for several reasons. - First of all, it doesn't make sense that the people need a god to click on their house to tell them that it is necessary to build a new house. People should decide for themselves when it is necessary for them to build a new house and determine for themselves whether they have the ability to do so.
- Secondly it is a chore for the player. It is not a nice game element from which a player derives joy. At the very best it is something the player can do while waiting for other stuff. That is not a good thing.
- Who says that when a god clicks on a house he expects the inhabitants to build a new house? Maybe god wants them to dig a hole in the ground instead or to perform a little dance.
See, the mechanic doesn't make a lot of sense. So why not tweak that instead of working around it to fix the problem it is creating for you in regard to spawning the troops? It would be so much cooler if people made up their own minds instead of having the god do it for them. Explain more about why and how the algorithm considers all objects as infinitely small points please. Surely you know the size of all objects in the game and can tweak the algorithm accordingly. (ah yes, you said so in the the rest of the post) Good idea to look for alternatives, but I don't see how this fact would make your existing solution inappropriate. The mustering fields seems to mean that a player indicates a spot where they want the troops to spawn which is then reserved specifically for that purpose so it won't be built on by annoying builders. Correct me if I'm wrong. If this is the case, why didn't you start with that implementation in the first place? What do you mean by "they were very easy to spawn camp if your enemy had a warband nearby"? Why can mustering fields never have anything above them? Or rather, since when has anything in godus ever had anything above it? How are the concepts of navigability and eligibility for building closely related? Which other elements in godus will be broken down into several smaller elements and how exactly is this done? I am looking forward to the first implementation of combat, but in the meantime, could you please ask Richard to create an account here and explain a few things? EDIT: By the way, in that animated gif it looks like a tent suddenly turns into a warband. What is up with that? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 16:54:49 GMT
I might be able to answer some of these from other updates, though more information would be great. The first question that pops into my mind when reading this is "Why do the citadels need an empty space in the surrounding area to generate units?". Couldn't the citadel have some sort of built-in space for that? Following on that, does this have anything to do with the potential size of warbands? If there were a certain restriction on the maximum size of a warband then that would give a minimum amount of free space that would/could be necessary in order to spawn that warband. What is the maximum amount of units in a warband? It would all seem proportionate, to avoid a lot of building redundancy - actually a good idea. "Citadels (the new name for military settlements) are key to combat. Having bigger citadels means you can have bigger warbands and more of them, giving you a substantial combat advantage. To make large citadels though, you need a lot of free space. As such, the AI will do its best to quickly clear rocks and trees and flatten land." godus.boards.net/thread/1022/combat-programming-progress-update-juneI would actually say that their attempts for using these shouldn't have been mocked as I had earlier, because that's a bit of work - as mentioned - on top of the legacy code already in the game they had to work with. This seems like a result of legacy code as well. Several very good points, as micromanagement as a god doesn't feel...I dunno, it feels like you're forced to be one kind of god. The more that "hard" micromanagement can be moved away from then it would seem the better. Sure, you could command your followers - but that should be something special and divine rather than seemingly having to tell them when to build. The rest should definitely be answered by Richard, and I look forward to that.  |
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Post by totallytim on Jul 26, 2015 17:38:34 GMT
Why is it a problem that a building tends to be built on a spawn point before the troops could get there? Couldn't you simply reserve that space so that builders won't build on it? Are builders simply assholes who disregard instructions? This actually brings to the attention that the whole builder mechanic could use some work. It never made sense to me that the player has to click on a building in order for some person to come out who then runs to the nearest open space and starts building a house. It doesn't make sense for several reasons. - First of all, it doesn't make sense that the people need a god to click on their house to tell them that it is necessary to build a new house. People should decide for themselves when it is necessary for them to build a new house and determine for themselves whether they have the ability to do so.
- Secondly it is a chore for the player. It is not a nice game element from which a player derives joy. At the very best it is something the player can do while waiting for other stuff. That is not a good thing.
- Who says that when a god clicks on a house he expects the inhabitants to build a new house? Maybe god wants them to dig a hole in the ground instead or to perform a little dance.
See, the mechanic doesn't make a lot of sense. So why not tweak that instead of working around it to fix the problem it is creating for you in regard to spawning the troops? It would be so much cooler if people made up their own minds instead of having the god do it for them. Additionally, would it be possible for the player to ignore the plots altogether and place the building just anywhere (unless it collides with something). Also would it be possible to upgrade existing structures if the place for this exits or perhaps just merge 2 huts in to a house? Lastly could buildings be placed on multiple levels. For example a house that starts on a lower layer and continues on the layer above it, or buildings that can only be built inside a wall of layers and sticks out a bit, like the entrance to a tunnel. Since you're obviously working on code concerning placing buildings and tents on the map, I think this is a valid topic to discuss, before too much gets set in stone. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jul 27, 2015 6:00:14 GMT
Why is it a problem that a building tends to be built on a spawn point before the troops could get there? Couldn't you simply reserve that space so that builders won't build on it? Are builders simply assholes who disregard instructions? This actually brings to the attention that the whole builder mechanic could use some work. It never made sense to me that the player has to click on a building in order for some person to come out who then runs to the nearest open space and starts building a house. It doesn't make sense for several reasons. - First of all, it doesn't make sense that the people need a god to click on their house to tell them that it is necessary to build a new house. People should decide for themselves when it is necessary for them to build a new house and determine for themselves whether they have the ability to do so.
- Secondly it is a chore for the player. It is not a nice game element from which a player derives joy. At the very best it is something the player can do while waiting for other stuff. That is not a good thing.
- Who says that when a god clicks on a house he expects the inhabitants to build a new house? Maybe god wants them to dig a hole in the ground instead or to perform a little dance.
See, the mechanic doesn't make a lot of sense. So why not tweak that instead of working around it to fix the problem it is creating for you in regard to spawning the troops? It would be so much cooler if people made up their own minds instead of having the god do it for them. Additionally, would it be possible for the player to ignore the plots altogether and place the building just anywhere (unless it collides with something). Also would it be possible to upgrade existing structures if the place for this exits or perhaps just merge 2 huts in to a house? Lastly could buildings be placed on multiple levels. For example a house that starts on a lower layer and continues on the layer above it, or buildings that can only be built inside a wall of layers and sticks out a bit, like the entrance to a tunnel. Since you're obviously working on code concerning placing buildings and tents on the map, I think this is a valid topic to discuss, before too much gets set in stone. I loved the way populous 1&2 did it, with the smaller houses growing if the larger plot sizes were available. They could have an auto grow option, you could turn on or off. Thing is that would require new art from the construction. Unless they just hacked it some how with reverse house construction followed by the new building. With the houses at different levels, I not sure if I like it unless it was a settlement. I want sculpting to destroy houses all the time, it's your fault if your not careful, it should cause unhappiness, and the builder/ followers to try to find somewhere else. Builders should be a house option button or house double click/left click, I alway find it awkward that clicking my abode/settlement sends someone out. What if I just wanted to see the info? |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 27, 2015 18:41:10 GMT
Because of all the commotion and other things I haven't actually been able to respond to this until now. The first question that pops into my mind when reading this is "Why do the citadels need an empty space in the surrounding area to generate units?". Couldn't the citadel have some sort of built-in space for that? ... Why is it a problem that a building tends to be built on a spawn point before the troops could get there? Couldn't you simply reserve that space so that builders won't build on it? Are builders simply assholes who disregard instructions? ... The mustering fields seems to mean that a player indicates a spot where they want the troops to spawn which is then reserved specifically for that purpose so it won't be built on by annoying builders. Correct me if I'm wrong. If this is the case, why didn't you start with that implementation in the first place? What do you mean by "they were very easy to spawn camp if your enemy had a warband nearby"? ... EDIT: By the way, in that animated gif it looks like a tent suddenly turns into a warband. What is up with that? 1. They could potentially hold them like other structures already hold followers, but I think either they're thinking longer term(!), realize that would be clumsy (see: previous settlement incarnations where we clicked, held to acquire x amount, and told them to go somewhere), and/or want to give a clear visual indication of growing forces (see: stacked vs. separate piece design debate from Civ IV to Civ V). 2. I think you kind of answer yourself with your third question here. These fields/rally points are the solution to that, and the reason it wasn't there to begin with may have had to do with working out the algorithms as mentioned in the post. If you think about it, none of the settlements have (unless I'm mistaken here) ever generated anything like these fields automatically around them, probably in some part due to thinking it'd be easiest to leave it to the player to choose. 3. I think the easy to spawn camp part is a natural thing that happens anytime in early combat design when you haven't opted for the garrison in-structure design. I suspect their solution to this was to make the mustering fields/rally points invulnerable till they disband the camp and move out, but we'd have to get confirmation from Richard/Pankoi on this. 4. Think it's either a glitch and/or the absence of a transition animation for when you select them to move out. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 27, 2015 21:34:22 GMT
Additionally, would it be possible for the player to ignore the plots altogether and place the building just anywhere (unless it collides with something). Also would it be possible to upgrade existing structures if the place for this exits or perhaps just merge 2 huts in to a house? Lastly could buildings be placed on multiple levels. For example a house that starts on a lower layer and continues on the layer above it, or buildings that can only be built inside a wall of layers and sticks out a bit, like the entrance to a tunnel. Since you're obviously working on code concerning placing buildings and tents on the map, I think this is a valid topic to discuss, before too much gets set in stone. I loved the way populous 1&2 did it, with the smaller houses growing if the larger plot sizes were available. They could have an auto grow option, you could turn on or off. Thing is that would require new art from the construction. Unless they just hacked it some how with reverse house construction followed by the new building. With the houses at different levels, I not sure if I like it unless it was a settlement. I want sculpting to destroy houses all the time, it's your fault if your not careful, it should cause unhappiness, and the builder/ followers to try to find somewhere else. Builders should be a house option button or house double click/left click, I alway find it awkward that clicking my abode/settlement sends someone out. What if I just wanted to see the info? They should already have the artwork and resources for various sized abodes and structures someplace - unless they deleted them all - and although it would just need some alterations of additions in the code to generate, I imagine it's quite doable. Especially with some of the new things they've done. I like the idea of the structures growing, or shrinking, in size to the fluctuations of population. It goes along with the whole "abode auto upgrades" idea too - we have suggested many such similar things many times over throughout the years to no avail, sadly. (geez, has it really been years?) But that's not to say it wouldn't be a welcome change if they suddenly (finally) decided to go that route. |
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 28, 2015 11:49:42 GMT
So...What exactly constitutes "ground level"? Is that whatever layer the settlement's on? Also, am I mistaken, or has the settlement compression seen some adjustment to allow for the buildings not to be just one bland blob of clipping abodes all the time? Oh, and last time you mentioned enemy AI sculpting...Could you guys maybe go more into that, as well as where our more interesting god powers come into play? Not that I don't get kicks out of seeing tiny dudes bash each others' heads in, but I can see way better versions of that in other games. Your selling point is this whole thing where I get to hurl meteors, tear the earth asunder, whip the winds and the seas into swirling columns and pits of destruction, sweep the lands with fire and water, and so on and so forth. Where's the only unique part to this combat? Hi GMR Leon Sorry this got a little lost in everything that happened. I'll ask the team and get back to you today |
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 28, 2015 12:56:36 GMT
I've spoken to Richard and he's answered a few of what he can. A few questions are more design orientated and so I'll see if I can get Konrad to at some point today/tomorrow. "The first question that pops into my mind when reading this is "Why do the citadels need an empty space in the surrounding area to generate units?". Couldn't the citadel have some sort of built-in space for that?"
"What do you mean by "they were very easy to spawn camp if your enemy had a warband nearby"?" "Which other elements in godus will be broken down into several smaller elements and how exactly is this done?"
"By the way, in that animated gif it looks like a tent suddenly turns into a warband. What is up with that?"
"Following on that, does this have anything to do with the potential size of warbands? If there were a certain restriction on the maximum size of a warband then that would give a minimum amount of free space that would/could be necessary in order to spawn that warband. What is the maximum amount of units in a warband?"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 14:54:10 GMT
I really wish we could stop shitting on every scrap of information and focus more on the positive elements of them. I was just about to say something similar - that's why I mostly refrain from commenting these days; I don't have anything very positive or constructive to say at this point. I do appreciate the updates, to be sure, and they are interesting to read. It's nice to see some sort of "progress" even it it's not significant. Though I am long since burned out on this combat thing. If they had put this much time into the initial design, or even the timeline or settlements, imagine where we would be today. We certainly would likely be less crass about it all. Lets hope whatever comes after combat gets at least just as much attention. For me there are two reasons why we can't stop shitting on it - first of all, there are no real positive things - look at the combat update - it's obvious that it leads into a dead end which doesn't add to the main game, it's like a mini game in the real game. Second - if we stop shitting on it they will go out and sell every update and every so called "feature" they add as a major success. There are two reasons i would stop shitting on it - 1. they beginn in developing the game they promised and explain us what it will be like and how they plan to reach this goal. Or 2. they refund me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 14:57:42 GMT
How does the combat fit with the soon to come ages?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 16:19:20 GMT
How does the combat fit with the soon to come ages? Yeah, I'd like colin22cans to tell us if there are going to be any more ages, period. Since, you know, they're an integral part of the game's progression. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 18:09:24 GMT
So...do you think with ages they'll keep adding in more unit types as technologies progress, or just keep with the ones they have now with different looks for each age?
So much needed to know about the missing parts of the game and how any of this plays into context with the other bits, that it's probably a good idea to dice it out now than trying to redo it a couple of more years down the line.
It would be a great lesson to learn from how Combat doesn't appear to really fit in with the rest of the game and seems destined to become another mini-game.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 28, 2015 18:58:05 GMT
So...What exactly constitutes "ground level"? Is that whatever layer the settlement's on? Also, am I mistaken, or has the settlement compression seen some adjustment to allow for the buildings not to be just one bland blob of clipping abodes all the time? Oh, and last time you mentioned enemy AI sculpting...Could you guys maybe go more into that, as well as where our more interesting god powers come into play? Not that I don't get kicks out of seeing tiny dudes bash each others' heads in, but I can see way better versions of that in other games. Your selling point is this whole thing where I get to hurl meteors, tear the earth asunder, whip the winds and the seas into swirling columns and pits of destruction, sweep the lands with fire and water, and so on and so forth. Where's the only unique part to this combat? Hi Gmr Leon Sorry this got a little lost in everything that happened. I'll ask the team and get back to you today Hey, no worries, I imagined as much was the case. Thanks for checking back in on this. |
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Post by Deth on Jul 28, 2015 18:58:19 GMT
I guess we will just get re-skins of what they build now.
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 28, 2015 20:09:48 GMT
I guess we will just get re-skins of what they build now. Not just re-skins! Annah has created a ton of new art assets that will be used. The animations team has also been involved. |
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 28, 2015 20:14:16 GMT
Hi Gmr Leon Sorry this got a little lost in everything that happened. I'll ask the team and get back to you today Hey, no worries, I imagined as much was the case. Thanks for checking back in on this. Whoops, forgot to get back to you! I did speak to Richard. RW- Yes, ground level is whatever level the settlement's on. I haven't changed anything fundamental about the settlement compression. This bit's more of a Konrad question, really.
I'll speak to Konrad & Ryan about this and the other things (like AI Sculpting & God Powers) at some point this week. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 20:18:14 GMT
I guess we will just get re-skins of what they build now. Not just re-skins! Annah has created a ton of new art assets that will be used. The animations team has also been involved. So is that a yes, there is work being done upon Combat units for different Eras? |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 28, 2015 20:27:57 GMT
Not just re-skins! Annah has created a ton of new art assets that will be used. The animations team has also been involved. So is that a yes, there is work being done upon Combat units for different Eras? Er, I don't think so. It's mostly dismissing the assertion that units are just differently colored little dudes or whatever, I think. It's already apparent from the new mustering fields' models, the adjustments made to basic follower models to make them more visually distinct, the banners, and so on. I do think this is a good question, but I'm afraid it's going to be set aside as, "can't discuss future plans." =/ By the way, thanks for getting to that colin22cans. I knew the other questions related to god powers' involvement would be more of a FuriousMoo question, so I didn't expect them to be tossed Richard's way. =P |
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This actually brings to the attention that the whole builder mechanic could use some work. It never made sense to me that the player has to click on a building in order for some person to come out who then runs to the nearest open space and starts building a house. It doesn't make sense for several reasons.
