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Post by Drake on Dec 17, 2015 7:28:31 GMT
Lets cover some basis on understanding what hate speech is. A lot of people are under a false presumption that hate speech is simply something that one finds distasteful, or when one person says they hate another. This is simply a false and an uneducated presumption. Lets look up what a legal definition of actual hate speech is: Hate speech is speech that offends, threatens, or insults groups, based on race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, disability, or other traits. www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/initiatives_awards/students_in_action/debate_hate.htmlThis is an area in which I have some expertise. Let me educate anyone who bothers to listen. In order for speech to be considered "hate speech", it has to be offensive, or threatening an individual or a group, based on (this is an important part here): race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, disability or other (aka genetic) traits. Meaning it needs to be aimed at one or more of the protected categories listed. Simply saying that you hate a person or a group, because you find their actions despicable, or simply do not like them, is NOT hate speech. It might be rough, it might be distasteful, but believe it or not, it is actually one's protected right, that a person, or a group, can openly say they hate another person, or a group, as long as they do not hate them because of: race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, disability or other (aka genetic) traits. I find it shallow that a word such as "hate speech", gets thrown around lightly. In this politically correct world, an announcement of "hate speech" brings a whole lot of "oooh", and "aaaah", and hand wringing. However, most of the people doing the hand wringing do not actually understand what hate speech is, and why there's a FEDERAL (in the US) LAW, that covers hate speech. The reason the law was introduced in the first place, is to make it illegal to discriminate and single out a person or a group, simply because they fall into any of those protected categories. You can still hate a liar, you can still hate a criminal, or anyone for any other reason, it's not illegal. So it's in poor taste to throw around words such as "Hate Speech", just because one person says they hate another, or say something mean. This little article highlights the ingorance of one particular politican, when he opened his mouth and called San Bernadino shooting a hate crime. His explanation for calling it a hate crime? When asked by ABC News to clarify what exactly he means by "hate crime" in this instance, Carson said, “Well it’s hard to imagine that you would shoot a bunch of people and not hate them, right? You don’t do that to people you love.” www.usnews.com/news/blogs/run-2016/2015/12/02/ben-carson-loses-top-fundraiser-calls-san-bernardino-shooting-a-hate-crimePlease, overlook the political aspect of that article. However, do understand that words such as "hate speech" and "hate crime" are thrown around so mildly today and mostly just because an orator wants to add weight to their statement, without actually understanding the seriousness of what "hate speech" and "hate crime" really mean. This is largely due to the political correctness, people have become hyper sensitive to normal, stern, and adult discussions, and conflict, that any opinion they find distatesteful, they simply write off as "hate", to put an end to discourse. Over last couple of decades, this actually created a great, friendly and open environment in which for criminal, petty thugs, and people with poor ethics and morals are free to thrive. For example. In 1910's, a popular remedy to a con artist, otherwise known as a "snake oil salesman", was to tar, feather and railroad them out of town. The tar would leave permanent and lasting scarring on the con man's skin. It would be painful to remove that tar, and further, if the con man failed to get out of that barrel on which he was railroaded out of town, he would be run over by a train. Now, to by today's standards it seems barbaric. However, it did keep the con man from running the same con, again and again and again. Also, anyone who advertised for that con man, quickly ran and hid once the con was discovered. Fast forward to 2015, and we have certain people, openly and publicly admit to swindling tens of thousands of people, and due to all the political correctness, those people are not only bending over backwards to be polite and inoffensive to the con man, but they actually allow the con man's "minions" to further misinform, lie and continue to perpetrate the lie, all under the guise of "free speech" and so called "entitled to an opinion". What baffles me, is most people don't understand a difference between what it means to be entitled to an opinion, versus what it means to allow a con man or his minion, to openly and freely, to continue to spout what has already been established, not once, not twice, but dozens of times, to be a blatant and disingenuous lies. Dwell on all that for a minute, or maybe two. |
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Post by militairensneuvelen on Dec 17, 2015 9:46:30 GMT
I'm puzzled.
What is the reason for this post?
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Post by Crumpy Six on Dec 17, 2015 10:49:16 GMT
I'm puzzled. What is the reason for this post? He got told off by the mods for saying he wished Aynen was dead. |
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Post by Manflake on Dec 17, 2015 10:49:37 GMT
Hahah go on drake poke the bear more this open board is a bit of a mess at the moment.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Dec 17, 2015 10:52:59 GMT
Basically the most likely outcome of all this is that Ba'al and Qetesh get sick of having to micro-moderate the Open board and it will be shut down to prevent the risk of the whole forum getting nuked by Proboards (or, more likely, the risk of the whole community of Godus critics being tarnished by a small number of aggressively unpleasant assholes).
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Post by morsealworth on Dec 17, 2015 18:46:50 GMT
But hey, he still makes a very good point, no?
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Dec 17, 2015 19:42:02 GMT
I don't see how this topic relates to godus. It would appear more at home in the off topic section. Perhaps drake would care enough about his participation on the board to sign up for an account.
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Post by Mandrake on Dec 17, 2015 20:59:45 GMT
While I have taken great exception to what 22cans has done to the industry, namely harming goodwill of backers to make them shy of donating towards other Kickstarter/crowdfunding (along with the Early Access abuse), wishing harm upon a liar helping perpetuate a scam (mostly upon Steam) does seem rather disproportionate to his own misdeeds.
Just do as tradition and brand them a con-man and detail their crimes for others to see.
I can understand the issue about Proboards policies, it goes with having a host, but it should also be noted that comparatively - even with a few people jumping the snark - this community is hardly as others are.
Which does bring up an important point in context of Godus: If 22cans were trying to make a Clash of Clones, how did they plan on ever managing that kind of community which draws in much, much worse than anything we've really seen here? It would seem like the average MOBA forum exchange would make them swear off talking to anyone for the rest of their lives.
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Post by petermolyneux on Dec 17, 2015 23:05:44 GMT
Fast forward to 2015, and we have certain people, openly and publicly admit to swindling tens of thousands of people, and due to all the political correctness, those people are not only bending over backwards to be polite and inoffensive to the con man, but they actually allow the con man's "minions" to further misinform, lie and continue to perpetrate the lie, all under the guise of "free speech" and so called "entitled to an opinion". What baffles me, is most people don't understand a difference between what it means to be entitled to an opinion, versus what it means to allow a con man or his minion, to openly and freely, to continue to spout what has already been established, not once, not twice, but dozens of times, to be a blatant and disingenuous lies. Dwell on all that for a minute, or maybe two. Are you honestly attempting to convince us that the moderators go out of their way "polite and inoffensive" to Peter Molyneux while also demanding that they censor/ban all 22Cans' affiliates for pushing the company line? |
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Post by Drake on Dec 18, 2015 1:47:36 GMT
So, you don't see the difference between pushing the company line, and blatantly lying, misinforming and scamming people.
You don't see the difference between pushing a company line that you might disagree with, versus actively and knowingly presenting false information in an attempt to cover up a scam and misguide the public.
I'll tell you what. How about you invest $100 with me, and I will give you a 20% return a year. Invest $1000, and I will give you 40% return. Invest $10,000 and I will give you 60%. Oh, and by the way, I'm being completely serious (sarcasm), and present these numbers to you as official statements from my company, registered as "You can believe me Inc." You going to tolerate that from a company official, even when it's uncovered that that presentation was a scam, yet they continue to tell you that? Also, my partner backs me up on this. He can't tell you how we do what we do, to give you the return you will never get, but we will continue to push the company line, because we are entitled to our opinion.
On a serious note, learn what words actually mean. What an opinion is, versus what a lie is. What pushing company line means, versus what scamming people means. Once you actually understand the difference, maybe it will become easier for you to differentiate between what a legitimate statement is, and what some of 22 cans reps are presenting on these boards. People these days find it so difficult to simply acknowledge that others can be wrong, have poor morals, bad ethics, and scam the innocents. They find it so difficult to label those acts reprehensible, and for some unfathomable reason, it's easier for them to make up excuses and reasons in their mind to give the benefits of the doubt not once, not twice, but literally dozens of times over a course of 3 years, to the people that continue to present the same dialog and show the same actions they have done when they initially scammed the victims. Amazing.
I guess the education system over the last 60 years did finally succeed in creating a perfect citizen that is easily controlled, malleable, gentle and meek. A citizen who won't stand up for his rights, will excuse the wrongs done to him, even if done repeatedly. On one had it's disgusting. On the other hand, it's pathetic. But there's this other side where I feel deeply sorry for those who show those characteristics as virtues, and are completely blind to the fact that they are unable to defend their families, and are teaching their children the same values, which will make them perfect victims for the rest of their life.
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Post by Mandrake on Dec 18, 2015 2:39:27 GMT
Ouch, Drake...perspective? Also, let's specifically call Godus it is - an intentionally faulty product. It was a petty swindle performed en masse, tickets to a bogus play. It didn't specifically ruin anyone* but was an intentionally faulty product sold under many guises. That practice deserves censure from not only from those directly affected, those expected to fall for the intentionally faulty product, and those otherwise in the same industry who do not want to be associated with such practices. So as such, PM and Co. as they are following his direction should be held pariah by the same industry until they truly have made amends at the very least. I don't think prison time anywhere for any involved would be beneficial to anyone, as the public shaming before their peers has been done well enough - after this point it just becomes footnotes of details whether they attempt for some kind of redemption or try to quietly slink off into the night to appear elsewhere under a new face. Having said that, I really don't think anyone is really looking to be enemies around here, despite some attempts by 22cans and their deniable agents to stir the community towards that direction. There is a lot of disapproval, but that is what comes from a diverse community from many origins. I do hope everyone is having a delightful holidays, or even just have a good day if you prefer. I do know there seems a bit of harshness lately, but that's rather what happens when a community is abruptly left in a communications blackout for a time. For their own studio's only live title. Right now it doesn't look like they might have enough to keep running in the same direction and may possibly be hoping really hard that they have something new to offer the market to distract from their previous history. Only then might they have some hope, but then it's questionable given the scope/design of their next product. As has been pointed out before, 22cans are their own worst enemy. After all, their ability to "manage" (which has often meant "punish" in their lexicon) their community has been rather spotty so far; how do think they would fare around the worst of the worst - the eSporters who chase monetary competitions? That WAS what Godus has been billed as from the start, with the "God of Gods" receiving a portion of the profits. (Though I'm wondering how they're going to attract a LOT to really pay the bills, but a few devoted whales going at it might be entertaining for a while.) Instead, 22cans have punished themselves far more than anyone else ever could - kind of like running into a pack of hyenas after wrapping yourself in bacon...that turns out to be turkey bacon.  I await the impending implosion with mixed feelings. On one hand it means a drastic change in the Godus community, and not for the better in ways that will make the reason for this thread seem mild.  (Sorry, admins/moderators...you're going to have a LOT more work when you have clanny handbags break out all over, and those generally spill out all over every community shore - I know that fun!) On the other hand, 22cans serves as a lesson for history around similar to Ion Storm Dallas - I can accept that much without wishing anyone harm over it. As we have seen, some people can change, and so who knows? Someone around 22cans could come up with some really brilliant stuff. But from 22cans itself and PM's name? Nope, done for sure by now. In the words of Virgil of L4D - Merry Christmas! * - Except, as mentioned before, their goodwill towards participating in Kickstarters/crowdfunding/EA after this. Many have stated their "being done" with all of these due to Godus. So by that, it ruins the goodwill the future users of those programs could have better deserved. That's Godus' eternal deuce into the Kickstarter and Early Access stockings. |
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Post by petermolyneux on Dec 18, 2015 3:14:23 GMT
So, you don't see the difference between pushing the company line, and blatantly lying, misinforming and scamming people. You don't see the difference between pushing a company line that you might disagree with, versus actively and knowingly presenting false information in an attempt to cover up a scam and misguide the public. I'll tell you what. How about you invest $100 with me, and I will give you a 20% return a year. Invest $1000, and I will give you 40% return. Invest $10,000 and I will give you 60%. Oh, and by the way, I'm being completely serious (sarcasm), and present these numbers to you as official statements from my company, registered as "You can believe me Inc." You going to tolerate that from a company official, even when it's uncovered that that presentation was a scam, yet they continue to tell you that? Also, my partner backs me up on this. He can't tell you how we do what we do, to give you the return you will never get, but we will continue to push the company line, because we are entitled to our opinion. On a serious note, learn what words actually mean. What an opinion is, versus what a lie is. What pushing company line means, versus what scamming people means. Once you actually understand the difference, maybe it will become easier for you to differentiate between what a legitimate statement is, and what some of 22 cans reps are presenting on these boards. People these days find it so difficult to simply acknowledge that others can be wrong, have poor morals, bad ethics, and scam the innocents. They find it so difficult to label those acts reprehensible, and for some unfathomable reason, it's easier for them to make up excuses and reasons in their mind to give the benefits of the doubt not once, not twice, but literally dozens of times over a course of 3 years, to the people that continue to present the same dialog and show the same actions they have done when they initially scammed the victims. Amazing. I guess the education system over the last 60 years did finally succeed in creating a perfect citizen that is easily controlled, malleable, gentle and meek. A citizen who won't stand up for his rights, will excuse the wrongs done to him, even if done repeatedly. On one had it's disgusting. On the other hand, it's pathetic. But there's this other side where I feel deeply sorry for those who show those characteristics as virtues, and are completely blind to the fact that they are unable to defend their families, and are teaching their children the same values, which will make them perfect victims for the rest of their life. I'm struggling to believe this was written by a person of sound mind. There's no conspiracy at work against you, Drake. Your teachers aren't trying to brainwash you into being a "perfect victim" and nobody on these forums, moderator or not, is bludgeoning you into helping them defend 22Cans. Nobody here is defending 22Cans. Or Peter. Or Simon. Or Collin. Or Aynen. What we're saying is, you can't go around barking about how you hope X user or Y user ends up like a computer game villain whose fate is either being viciously knifed and left to die an agonizing death or having his guts ripped by the protagonist with the latter's bare hands. It's that simple. You are the only one poisoning the Open Board, so I hope the mods limit their actions accordingly. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 18, 2015 3:33:53 GMT
No conspiracy theories were mentioned in my post. So deal with it at face value.
By the virtue that you allow 22 cans reps to continuously voice the same lies, and pat them on the back for coming to these forums, to continue to voice the same lies, you are allowing this to go on.
You keep allowing 22 cans to voice their lies and to continue to scam people under the guise of "they are entitled to a force and their opinion".
You reward 22 cans reps for coming here by saying "well, at least they have the courage to show up". When all they do when they show up is voice more vile and blatant lies. Or give you the same "it's great, everyone is busy, can't talk about it". Community response "wow, that took guts to come here and tell us that, lets not condemn them for that".
You are the perfect victims. You present your continued tolerance toward scammers, low time criminals (if you can say that scamming people out of a over a million dollars is low time).
Even in your last statement, you make an excuse that because no one's life was ruined due to being scammed out of $20, it's not a big deal. Completely overlooking the fact that a total amount was over a million, between Kickstarter and Steam sales. Does each individual scam of $20 somehow diminish the crime? Do you not realize that rather than having one victim lose a million, you have 100,000 victims lose $20.
A crime, is a crime, is a crime. So if one scammer victimizes 10 people and makes out with 1 million it's horrible, yet another victimizes 100,000 and makes out with 1 million, it's excusable?
As I said, you present your tolerance toward criminals as virtues. This alone makes you a victim.
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Post by Drake on Dec 18, 2015 3:38:41 GMT
To clarify. What I wanted to say, is your tolerance toward criminals and criminal behavior, toward violation of ethics, poor morals, is what makes you brainwashed by political correctness. You have been conditioned to not pass judgement and hold mild opinions, even when you are victimized. This conditioning is what made you perfect victims and allowed con man like Molyneix to thrive.
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Post by petermolyneux on Dec 18, 2015 4:14:46 GMT
No conspiracy theories were mentioned in my post. So deal with it at face value.
By the virtue that you allow 22 cans reps to continuously voice the same lies, and pat them on the back for coming to these forums, to continue to voice the same lies, you are allowing this to go on.
You keep allowing 22 cans to voice their lies and to continue to scam people under the guise of "they are entitled to a force and their opinion".
You reward 22 cans reps for coming here by saying "well, at least they have the courage to show up". When all they do when they show up is voice more vile and blatant lies. Or give you the same "it's great, everyone is busy, can't talk about it". Community response "wow, that took guts to come here and tell us that, lets not condemn them for that".
You are the perfect victims. You present your continued tolerance toward scammers, low time criminals (if you can say that scamming people out of a over a million dollars is low time).
Even in your last statement, you make an excuse that because no one's life was ruined due to being scammed out of $20, it's not a big deal. Completely overlooking the fact that a total amount was over a million, between Kickstarter and Steam sales. Does each individual scam of $20 somehow diminish the crime? Do you not realize that rather than having one victim lose a million, you have 100,000 victims lose $20.
A crime, is a crime, is a crime. So if one scammer victimizes 10 people and makes out with 1 million it's horrible, yet another victimizes 100,000 and makes out with 1 million, it's excusable?
As I said, you present your tolerance toward criminals as virtues. This alone makes you a victim.Drake, please show me where I have said any of the above. Any of it. Because as far as I can tell, you've painted yourself into a corner and are trying to save face by attacking statements I never made and words I have not uttered. There is no reason to ban 22Cans members from this board. Lying is not against the rules. Intentionally lying is not against the rules. You and Mandrake can waste as much of your time typing up these inane commentaries, it won't change the terms and conditions of Proboards and this forum. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Dec 18, 2015 4:15:02 GMT
By the virtue that you allow 22 cans reps to continuously voice the same lies, and pat them on the back for coming to these forums, to continue to voice the same lies, you are allowing this to go on. You keep allowing 22 cans to voice their lies and to continue to scam people under the guise of "they are entitled to a force and their opinion". You reward 22 cans reps for coming here by saying "well, at least they have the courage to show up". When all they do when they show up is voice more vile and blatant lies. Or give you the same "it's great, everyone is busy, can't talk about it". Community response "wow, that took guts to come here and tell us that, lets not condemn them for that". Personally, I like to think the more we draw them out to talk, the better they make the hole to bury themselves in. The fact that we have numerous threads detailing the reality compared to their fictions should be sufficient to convey that in no way is anyone here as thoroughly complicit in permitting the continuation of their misdeeds as you seem to believe, I like to think. It would be one thing if we were fooling ourselves and cozying up to them like, oh man that's okay, have another month, but we're now more of the mindset of, oh what a fucking surprise, they're taking another half a year to finish one fucking thing and saying nothing again. I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the sense that prodding them to say bullshit that we can pin to their foreheads when they fuck up again is being tolerant of their asshole attitude. It's maybe the complete opposite of tolerant, it's the best we can do to hold them accountable besides digging up conference videos of Molyneux sticking his foot in his mouth yet again and/or throwing info at the media to rip 22cans a new one. The latter of which we can only ever do if we can get the fuckers talking long enough to flip the tables on them, which unfortunately they well know by now. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 18, 2015 5:15:46 GMT
I'll tell you what. I'll be back in 3 months, and we'll see if you all still enjoy being deluded by Aynen, with his bravery of coming here, and voicing his "opinion", presenting "company line" of "soonus", "working hard", "can't talk about it", while you all welcome him back, again, and again. It's laughable and pathetic at the same time.
So hey, lying is not against the rules.
Take care.
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Post by petermolyneux on Dec 18, 2015 6:13:04 GMT
I'll tell you what. I'll be back in 3 months, and we'll see if you all still enjoy being deluded by Aynen, with his bravery of coming here, and voicing his "opinion", presenting "company line" of "soonus", "working hard", "can't talk about it", while you all welcome him back, again, and again. It's laughable and pathetic at the same time. So hey, lying is not against the rules. Take care. Right, that's the response I thought I'd get. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, friend. |
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Post by hardly on Dec 18, 2015 6:24:04 GMT
By the virtue that you allow 22 cans reps to continuously voice the same lies, and pat them on the back for coming to these forums, to continue to voice the same lies, you are allowing this to go on. You keep allowing 22 cans to voice their lies and to continue to scam people under the guise of "they are entitled to a force and their opinion". You reward 22 cans reps for coming here by saying "well, at least they have the courage to show up". When all they do when they show up is voice more vile and blatant lies. Or give you the same "it's great, everyone is busy, can't talk about it". Community response "wow, that took guts to come here and tell us that, lets not condemn them for that". Personally, I like to think the more we draw them out to talk, the better they make the hole to bury themselves in. The fact that we have numerous threads detailing the reality compared to their fictions should be sufficient to convey that in no way is anyone here as thoroughly complicit in permitting the continuation of their misdeeds as you seem to believe, I like to think. It would be one thing if we were fooling ourselves and cozying up to them like, oh man that's okay, have another month, but we're now more of the mindset of, oh what a fucking surprise, they're taking another half a year to finish one fucking thing and saying nothing again. I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the sense that prodding them to say bullshit that we can pin to their foreheads when they fuck up again is being tolerant of their asshole attitude. It's maybe the complete opposite of tolerant, it's the best we can do to hold them accountable besides digging up conference videos of Molyneux sticking his foot in his mouth yet again and/or throwing info at the media to rip 22cans a new one. The latter of which we can only ever do if we can get the fuckers talking long enough to flip the tables on them, which unfortunately they well know by now. What he said.
Drake and others, I don't know why it has to be a you are with us or against us mind-set. Aynen has done things in the past I disagree with and he'll probably say or do things in the future I disagree with but I'd still rather him visit, post and participate here. He's like one of those kids in the Hitler youth, he thinks PM is great but ultimately he hasn't done much beyond being caught in their web of lies. Lets keep his misdeeds in perspective.
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Post by Qetesh on Dec 18, 2015 7:21:55 GMT
This thread is okay in not breaking rules as long as no harm to any person, group or member is mentioned. For the record the term "hate speech" comment I used in prior thread was regarding the Isis comment which connotes a religious faction/nationality and is appropriate definition of the term.
As a moderator, I enforce the rules. As a backer, I am pissed as hell at 22cans. I have made about a billion posts on it in extreme colorful detail. I have used every clever analogy, metaphor and idiom that was rolling around in my brain to do so. I simply am tired of doing it. I only have so many times that I can spew out the same acid filled vitriol stuff till it gives me a headache. Join our board and search through if you want to read any of it in detail. Plenty of others have not had their fill so they are still screaming from the rooftops. That is their choice and their right. If PM did open up his mouth again, I probably would get a re-load of new ammunition on the matter, since that is what happens whenever he does. However, his PR person has clamped him down it seems and they are in hibernation mode.
Look, in a nutshell, I am no happier than anyone else with 22cans but for me the thing I do now is wait and hope the Trail falls apart and fails like a wet 2 dollar bill. This would be what I think would cause the end of PM's reign and what a deceitful company deserves, bankruptcy.
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(Sorry, admins/moderators...you're going to have a LOT more work when you have clanny handbags break out all over, and those generally spill out all over every community shore - I know that fun!)
