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Post by Qetesh on Feb 16, 2016 11:38:27 GMT
Has such an ugly long drawn out experience hurt your joy you felt when new God games are coming out? Are you more cynical about the genre in general? Or are you just getting to the point of being ready to move on once you know last nail is in the coffin and what direction will your adoration flow? Will it still be God Games or did Godus push you in another direction? How much did this mess really take from you and/or how much will you let if affect your future love of games?
I think Godus shook my core about DEVS in general more than the God game genre. I am shocked at how much deception and blame could exist toward fans and backers in the video game industry. I don't why but I was beyond naive thinking something that is supposed to be all about fun would involve anything other than good kind hearted well natured DEVs like our friends at Genesis and Universum. I really just thought they were happy Mr. Rogers like peeps bopping about an office where joy is made. My how ugly and tarnished Godus has made this video game industry seem to me now. I know longer assume any DEV is one of the good guys first. Now, I have to have it proven to me. This is what Godus has taken from me. I don't hold the genre anymore likely to be full of bad DEVs but this is only because the entire industry was dirtied for me. How about you? As we get closer to the end of all this? What exactly did Godus take from you, besides your hard earned cash? Do you still love your God games?
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Post by echocdelta on Feb 16, 2016 13:05:03 GMT
Definitely made crowdfunding harder.
Also developers are just people, although we're actively trying to change the perception left by bad developers. Remember that the rank and file of 22Cans are all/were all talented people who are in the industry for the right reasons, or just assume that now that we're moving past it anyway. I have tremendous respect for the staff, like Konrad, who stayed to see it through.
We hope that this entire thing has only helped developers everywhere learn how to better communicate, and respect, the people that keep them in business. I know that it's definitely shaped our communication methods here, positively I hope, and it's helped us grow as a company in general. But I'd say always be critical and take things with a grain of salt, it keeps developers honest.
The developer mantra;
Win nervously, lose tragically.
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Mandrake
Master
The Vault Boogeyman
Posts: 113 
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Post by Mandrake on Feb 16, 2016 13:56:08 GMT
It is difficult to reconcile that the same man who helped put together the god game genre is also the one who would make a total mockery of it. But as there are other god games out there in development, I figure that torch has been passed on.
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Lord Ba'al
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Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Feb 16, 2016 14:08:48 GMT
I still like games when they are good.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2016 14:36:13 GMT
I still asses games/studios on a case-by-case basis. Personally I don't think Colin, Peter, Simon, or 22cans have directly tarnished any legacy but their own, and while I do have to give kudos for the low level employees that have stuck it out with Godus for whatever reason, there still remains the possibility that they are entirely complicit with whats been going on at the Cannery and the sophomoric shell game they've been trying to play with their community.
Indirectly, they have most certainty affected the crowd-funding scene, since the essential take from this comedy of errors has been a clarion cry to those involved in crowd funding to be much more aware of who you are giving your money to and the expectations involved. That said, I've spent years in the Game Development arena, and I still can't quite fathom how badly 22cans has handled this mess.
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Post by Deth on Feb 16, 2016 15:09:37 GMT
No. But I always have hope and take each game on it's own. I have had two much success with Kickstarter for that even to be bothered. There are good games there are bad games, even before Kickstarter. I am just seeing more games I want to play being created on Kickstarter because they are not the cookie cutter the main stream want to make and think only will make money.
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Post by idem on Feb 16, 2016 22:45:58 GMT
I don't think Godus can affect an entire genre of games. I don't even think Godus and everything around it says much about whatever comes out of 22Cans next that isn't related to Godus. Except maybe that whatever it is, it needs to make money. Whatever Peter does next is still a coin-toss.
I'm not even going to try and predict it.
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Post by mindless on Feb 17, 2016 1:06:39 GMT
Not at all. Just because one studio attempts something and fails doesn't mean that other teams cant take that concept and push it forward. Its not like molyneux holds the copyright on the concept. So there is nothing stopping others from trying. In a way 22 cans failure can shine a light on what not to do. Giving those that follow a good set of principals to stick to if they dont want to run into the exact same problems.
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Post by totallytim on Feb 17, 2016 2:26:30 GMT
Well, crowdfunding, early access and such are dead to me, but I still love proper god games.
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Post by militairensneuvelen on Feb 17, 2016 7:55:37 GMT
They killed my goodwill for EA projects altogether.
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Post by bed on Feb 17, 2016 8:56:00 GMT
Not at all, its killed my faith in 22Cans and Peter - thats it.
I always treat crowd funding as a risk, I don't pay more than I'm prepared to lose and get nothing for. In this case it didn't work out in the end.
I've backed heaps of other games that have worked out better than I could imagine, as well as some that were just ok - like everything in life is a scale, nothing's black or white.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Feb 17, 2016 9:59:48 GMT
I'm beginning to think "god game" isn't even a genre. It's all just variations on RTS. Nothing about Godus or Godus Wars makes it a "god game" other than the label.
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Mandrake
Master
The Vault Boogeyman
Posts: 113
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Post by Mandrake on Feb 18, 2016 1:25:41 GMT
I'm beginning to think "god game" isn't even a genre. It's all just variations on RTS. Nothing about Godus or Godus Wars makes it a "god game" other than the label. Or maybe a Colony/Fortress game with a relationship of sorts with the populace. Probably best to think of it as a really specific sub-genre like Dungeon Crawlers are for CRPGs. |
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Post by Deth on Feb 18, 2016 1:44:37 GMT
I'm beginning to think "god game" isn't even a genre. It's all just variations on RTS. Nothing about Godus or Godus Wars makes it a "god game" other than the label. That is what it has always been for me. Basically an RTS with god powers. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 18, 2016 3:38:43 GMT
A true God Game[1] is actually generally considered an Artificial Life or a Life Simulation game, and does not fall under the strategy game genre - though it may have similarities in game style and play - however, these can be intermingled and mixed. Some games encompass multiple genres.[3] My opinion; Godus v1.5 = Casual God Game Godus v2.0 = Casual God Management Strategy Tower Game (it was a mess) Godus Wars = Casual Real-time Tactics Game 1: " God games are classified as a subgenre of artificial life game because players tend to a population of simulated people that they control only indirectly. Although god games share qualities with both construction and management simulation games and real-time strategy games, players in god games are only able to exercise indirect control over their population. They cannot tell specific units what to do, as seen in strategy games, although players may sometimes compete against other players with their own population of supporters. Moreover, players are given godlike powers not seen in construction or management games, such as the ability to control the weather, transform the landscape, and bless or curse different populations." 2: " Real-time strategy (RTS) is a subgenre of strategy video games where the game does not progress incrementally in turns. In an RTS, as in other wargames, the participants position and maneuver units and structures under their control to secure areas of the map and/or destroy their opponents' assets. In a typical RTS, it is possible to create additional units and structures during the course of a game. This is generally limited by a requirement to expend accumulated resources. These resources are in turn garnered by controlling special points on the map and/or possessing certain types of units and structures devoted to this purpose. More specifically, the typical game of the RTS genre features resource gathering, base building, in-game technological development and indirect control of units." 3: " A video game genre is a specific category of games related by a common gameplay characteristic. Genres are not usually defined by the actual content of the game or its medium of play, but by its common challenge. Moreover, each individual game may belong to several genres at once." |
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Mandrake
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The Vault Boogeyman
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Post by Mandrake on Feb 18, 2016 11:01:34 GMT
I was trying to avoid this part of the conversation, but here goes... I have been thoroughly convinced - by their actions - that 22cans are trying to destroy everything they touch as if they hate the concepts of crowdfunding and Early Access/Steam/VALVe. Normally, that should sound like hyperbole, but here they are as examples of the worst Kickstarter and Early Access abuses around. Everywhere I have investigated about Godus has two major common themes - ^&*( Kickstarter and ^&$$ Early Access for both playing accessory to scammers who don't even have to abide by the simple tenets of a contract common to most of the world, that if you're going to make the damn thing you're going to put in an honest effort to uphold your part of it. (The British notoriously have a problem with good faith in regards to contracts, and the relatively recent court judgments have been outright comical.) Godus certainly has caused a bit of damage, as echocdelta pointed out about crowdfunding - not just those directly burned, but here's an example of an industry legend abusing crowdfunding; someone who was at a position of trust for gamers and other developers alike, seemingly went out of their way to drop a turd in the punch bowl to make it more difficult for everyone else, as easy material for a Cracked article. It isn't just the betrayal that makes it all that more painful for folks, but rather the smug way 22cans' management has gone about the whole thing as if they are somehow untouchable and don't have to even try to make amends to anyone they have screwed over. Unfortunately, there are such things as blacklists*...and that's why I'd suggest for the rank and file of 22cans to execute the GTFO Manoeuver before the 22cans stench becomes too hard to wash off for any career they might hope to have**. The management obviously hasn't given a damn about whatever newbies to the industry they use and burn up, and if anyone's honestly trying to learn anything by working at/around 22cans...sure, if you're trying to learn what not to do. * - Most of them for very practical reasons: "Oh, I see here that you've recently worked for Derek Smart." *roundfiles application* ** - To make it painfully clear: www.infinitelooper.com/?v=OWwOJlOI1nU |
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Post by echocdelta on Feb 27, 2016 0:00:40 GMT
I was trying to avoid this part of the conversation, but here goes... I have been thoroughly convinced - by their actions - that 22cans are trying to destroy everything they touch as if they hate the concepts of crowdfunding and Early Access/Steam/VALVe. Normally, that should sound like hyperbole, but here they are as examples of the worst Kickstarter and Early Access abuses around. Everywhere I have investigated about Godus has two major common themes - ^&*( Kickstarter and ^&$$ Early Access for both playing accessory to scammers who don't even have to abide by the simple tenets of a contract common to most of the world, that if you're going to make the damn thing you're going to put in an honest effort to uphold your part of it. (The British notoriously have a problem with good faith in regards to contracts, and the relatively recent court judgments have been outright comical.) Godus certainly has caused a bit of damage, as echocdelta pointed out about crowdfunding - not just those directly burned, but here's an example of an industry legend abusing crowdfunding; someone who was at a position of trust for gamers and other developers alike, seemingly went out of their way to drop a turd in the punch bowl to make it more difficult for everyone else, as easy material for a Cracked article. It isn't just the betrayal that makes it all that more painful for folks, but rather the smug way 22cans' management has gone about the whole thing as if they are somehow untouchable and don't have to even try to make amends to anyone they have screwed over. Unfortunately, there are such things as blacklists*...and that's why I'd suggest for the rank and file of 22cans to execute the GTFO Manoeuver before the 22cans stench becomes too hard to wash off for any career they might hope to have**. The management obviously hasn't given a damn about whatever newbies to the industry they use and burn up, and if anyone's honestly trying to learn anything by working at/around 22cans...sure, if you're trying to learn what not to do. * - Most of them for very practical reasons: "Oh, I see here that you've recently worked for Derek Smart." *roundfiles application* ** - To make it painfully clear: www.infinitelooper.com/?v=OWwOJlOI1nUI'd like to point out that the industry itself rarely works with blacklists or bad-game-taint for rank & file - people look at the individual's contribution to the project, as opposed to the project itself being a shit-show. Mainly because people have a degree of empathy. The juniors/interns at 22Cans are trying to break into the industry and they'll likely just stick around to have their 'golden ticket', which is a released game with credited contribution. Almost all of the jobs in the industry require experience or shipped product, they don't stipulate 'game must be good'. We would like to imagine that our sentiments, as consumers, would influence professional relationships but honestly the only people who would be seen negatively, as professionals, are upper management. Even Colin and the CM team can swing the line 'the game was really terrible with a toxic community so I implemented x,y,z to mitigate fallout, including manipulating Steam forum structures'. That is, pragmatically speaking, professional behavior. Colin's job isn't to make you happy or communicate goodwill, it's to control damage and manage support ticekts. The game isn't going to be fixed, changed or made the way it was promised, this is an exit strategy as Godus Wars was likely their last attempt at Western markets. |
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Mandrake
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Post by Mandrake on Feb 27, 2016 6:10:00 GMT
I'd like to believe that the rank and file could remain unscathed from this whole thing, but unless they have already made connections like Pavle it's quite unlikely. Blacklists do exist in some form in the industry, usually on a per-publisher basis. Previous work experience DOES count, and if you did stick it out with a questionable and scammy production...what does that say about you as a developer, particularly your morals? Or what if you - already having known about a developer's conduct - join up and aid along in the deception behind Godus Wars? True, that says something about how well someone can be bought, but then again...who would want to hire one of those behind the PR mess of Godus Wars? That all is exactly why this fellow cannot find respectable work anywhere else in the industry, or any work at all, besides Herve Caen's Toadie: www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,214443/ |
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Post by Spiderweb on Feb 27, 2016 7:07:14 GMT
I'd like to believe that the rank and file could remain unscathed from this whole thing, but unless they have already made connections like Pavle it's quite unlikely. Blacklists do exist in some form in the industry, usually on a per-publisher basis. Previous work experience DOES count, and if you did stick it out with a questionable and scammy production...what does that say about you as a developer, particularly your morals? Or what if you - already having known about a developer's conduct - join up and aid along in the deception behind Godus Wars? True, that says something about how well someone can be bought, but then again...who would want to hire one of those behind the PR mess of Godus Wars? That all is exactly why this fellow cannot find respectable work anywhere else in the industry, or any work at all, besides Herve Caen's Toadie: www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,214443/ Fictional 22cans dev (22) to prospective mobile game employer (MGE) MGE: so Godus wars and Godus eh? Didn't please the community at all did they? 22: no unfortunity not, but we weren't allowed to talk to them. MGE: lots of paywalls and monetisation? 22: yeah we all had to create these. MGE: {rubs hands} well I'm sold, your hired. |
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Post by echocdelta on Feb 27, 2016 7:38:26 GMT
It's not unlikely, I'm not even sure how we're assuming that.
The senior/first 22Cans staff have all mainly left, some leaving the industry but others moving into their own studios/other studios.
The conversation would go like this:
"So you worked on Godus?"
"Yeah, boy, that was a shit-show. I did the animations on the bipedals. Here is my folio!"
"Haha, yeah, I'd say something but I'm a professional and I don't care about Godus, folio looks great, can you start in two weeks?"
We'd like to think that it might go like this:
"So you worked on Godus? You really screwed over your customers and the goodwill of games, you can f-off out of this office!"
The new employer is not going to care, in business games are treated as a commodity. They'll even hire the person who did the integration of the gem-store, or the person who drew the resource card graphics. The only people I can see actually receiving flak, or bad reputation, are those in the business planning/upper management/development part of 22Cans and probably the CM/PR people (even though it wasn't really their fault).
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