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Post by idem on Feb 27, 2016 11:37:43 GMT
There's something that has always rubbed me the wrong way about God games: Their miracles tend to look like spells.
A prime example of this is the fireball. (which I noticed in the last update is already being worked on)
Fireballs aren't exactly what I'd picture a divine miracle to be. Miracles should be much more intangible.
In the Lord of the Rings movies, Gandalf at some point creates a nondescript light that, for unknown reasons, keeps a ring wraith at bay. It's never explained how, or what the light is. To me, that's closer to divine miracles than what you see in most games.
Even the Black and White gesture system was reminiscent of a wizard casting a spell by waving his hands around.
For the art direction I'd really like to ask a key question for every miracle that is being designed: "How is this different from a spell?"
How is it what a god would come up with, rather than what a human would come up with?
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Post by Qetesh on Feb 27, 2016 13:46:54 GMT
There's something that has always rubbed me the wrong way about God games: Their miracles tend to look like spells. A prime example of this is the fireball. (which I noticed in the last update is already being worked on) Fireballs aren't exactly what I'd picture a divine miracle to be. Miracles should be much more intangible. In the Lord of the Rings movies, Gandalf at some point creates a nondescript light that, for unknown reasons, keeps a ring wraith at bay. It's never explained how, or what the light is. To me, that's closer to divine miracles than what you see in most games. Even the Black and White gesture system was reminiscent of a wizard casting a spell by waving his hands around. For the art direction I'd really like to ask a key question for every miracle that is being designed: "How is this different from a spell?" How is it what a god would come up with, rather than what a human would come up with? This is bible connotations but, don't you think turning water into wine, walking on water, parting the red sea, healing the lepers and rising Lazarus from the dead are pretty tangible??? |
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Post by idem on Feb 27, 2016 13:48:42 GMT
Those were all done through humans though.
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Post by Qetesh on Feb 27, 2016 14:04:50 GMT
Those were all done through humans though. Hmmmm, Well, Jesus was son of God ( in Bible) and in human form, but he was not just a human, he was a God. |
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Post by idem on Feb 27, 2016 14:13:47 GMT
Those were all done through humans though. Hmmmm, Well, Jesus was son of God ( in Bible) and in human form, but he was not just a human, he was a God. That depends on the particular branch of Christianity you ask. Some see him as a man, some as god himself, some as something between the two. But in either case, in this game the player doesn't play a human incarnation of a god. And I think that visually there should be a difference because it shows how these miracles are in a league of their own in terms of how powerful they are. Just as power-wise there is a difference between resurrecting one man and creating mankind. |
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Post by Qetesh on Feb 27, 2016 14:34:34 GMT
Okay, not to be a PIA but in Bible God himself not a human of any kind, made the Earth in 7 days, and he created the great flood. Don't these feel tangible?
I guess, I just don't have an issue with a God in a God game of doing whatever the hell they want. Fireball or a cat's furball being made of gold. Isn't that the point of being a God?
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Post by idem on Feb 27, 2016 14:38:00 GMT
Yeah, perhaps both kinds should be available. I just feel that most games will stop at the 'lesser' stuff and never get to the stuff that is truly different from what a human would come up with.
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Post by Qetesh on Feb 27, 2016 16:08:38 GMT
Yeah, perhaps both kinds should be available. I just feel that most games will stop at the 'lesser' stuff and never get to the stuff that is truly different from what a human would come up with. I agree! Let's bring on the Furballs of Gold.....and some really cool other crap that the likes of the makers of Thor and Marvel can create. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Feb 27, 2016 17:15:49 GMT
Yeah, perhaps both kinds should be available. I just feel that most games will stop at the 'lesser' stuff and never get to the stuff that is truly different from what a human would come up with. I agree! Let's bring on the Furballs of Gold.....and some really cool other crap that the likes of the makers of Thor and Marvel can create. The miracles have to come from somewhere, you either call them down to directly effect the earth or you call them into being under your control and in your hands. I guess it is all down to personal preference, maybe a fun "menu" option would be power source, with options like hands or sky or totem  |
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Post by Deth on Feb 27, 2016 17:37:15 GMT
Those were all done through humans though. God "only" Miracles I remember4 are the burning bush and raining fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah and turning the woman that looks into a pillar of salt. Those are all pretty tangible. |
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Post by Qetesh on Feb 27, 2016 18:03:14 GMT
Those were all done through humans though. God "only" Miracles I remember4 are the burning bush and raining fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah and turning the woman that looks into a pillar of salt. Those are all pretty tangible. Yes, and then there is the plagues, but then again, that would be some pretty cool stuff for a video game. As in, if you create your own curses. |
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Post by Deth on Feb 27, 2016 18:16:33 GMT
Personally I would like more visual and flashy miracles, and less multiplying bread and the fishes and turning water int wine, unless it is a whole river. But then I am also more of a RTS god game type of guy. I wan to fling fireballs at my and other people.
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Post by idem on Feb 27, 2016 22:13:46 GMT
I was thinking of the biblical miracles that were done without an intermediate and they all seem much less precise. More like a blunt instrument than a precisely aimed miracle. Even to the point of complete overkill. They hurt both friend and foe so in that sense they are more forces of nature that don't care whom they affect. (and it's not unthinkable that forces of nature were their source of inspiration)
Had any of the Jews in Egypt forgotten to mark their doors, the miracle wouldn't have cared who they were. Famine and desease could strike good people and bad people equally. Not to mention floods and the likes. Very indescriminate.
Those kinds of miracles give off a bit of a vibe of a god who isn't too concerned with the individual. And this vibe could be used to great effect in a game where different gods can set themselves apart. And perhaps this can even be reflected with game mechanics. A more powerful variant of a miracle couldn't be aimed as well as a less powerful one. So it'll kill friend and foe alike but it will certainly get a message across!
A bit of a tangent, but food for thought.
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Post by Qetesh on Feb 28, 2016 13:32:50 GMT
I was thinking of the biblical miracles that were done without an intermediate and they all seem much less precise. More like a blunt instrument than a precisely aimed miracle. Even to the point of complete overkill. They hurt both friend and foe so in that sense they are more forces of nature that don't care whom they affect. (and it's not unthinkable that forces of nature were their source of inspiration) Had any of the Jews in Egypt forgotten to mark their doors, the miracle wouldn't have cared who they were. Famine and desease could strike good people and bad people equally. Not to mention floods and the likes. Very indescriminate. Those kinds of miracles give off a bit of a vibe of a god who isn't too concerned with the individual. And this vibe could be used to great effect in a game where different gods can set themselves apart. And perhaps this can even be reflected with game mechanics. A more powerful variant of a miracle couldn't be aimed as well as a less powerful one. So it'll kill friend and foe alike but it will certainly get a message across! A bit of a tangent, but food for thought. If you really look at it harder, he did care, but he was bias. He picked Noah and his family because he was fed up with all humans but Noah's family and he wanted a re-do. He regretted such extreme measures later and so he gave warnings to those he still felt worthy of saving. Lot's wife was told not to look back and the Jews that followed his orders had their first born sons saved as well. In other words, do as I say and I will save you, if you don't then I no longer care. He was much more vengeful in beginning of bible and as we are supposed to be built in his image, like we adapt and evolve, he did too in later parts, but yet with another whole chapter of warnings of fire and brimstone in Revelations. Again, he acts bias towards those he warns to follow his orders or face some dire stuff. Not indiscriminate at all, just specialized treatment for his specific VIP members. This is something that you could add to a video game in a more concrete way. If you follow my wishes and live in beach areas only then you can survive my fireballs, if you opt to ignore me and live in the mountains, I will crush you with asteroids monthly. If you eat only grain, I will make you extra fertile, if you eat meat , I will make you infertile. And so on and son on.....I am a bias as to your life but you choose with your free will to go against you, so this means you kinda "had it coming" and it does not mean I don't care just I am one hard line strict no excuses type of God. Isn't that why we call surgeon Gods? They think they hold lives in their hands? This is just par of being a God. What would be cool is having a choice in a game to be a mellow, all is well God or a My Way or the Highway type of God, and let me change it around anytime I want. |
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Post by idem on Feb 28, 2016 14:00:16 GMT
... What would be cool is having a choice in a game to be a mellow, all is well God or a My Way or the Highway type of God, and let me change it around anytime I want. This! ^ It'll be interesting to think about what will happen (mechanics-wise) when you let the people do what they want without much consequence. Sidenote: Didn't God plan to kill Noah and his family as well at first? I mean, that was his original plan, right? |
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Post by Qetesh on Feb 28, 2016 15:14:22 GMT
... What would be cool is having a choice in a game to be a mellow, all is well God or a My Way or the Highway type of God, and let me change it around anytime I want. This! ^ It'll be interesting to think about what will happen (mechanics-wise) when you let the people do what they want without much consequence. Sidenote: Didn't God plan to kill Noah and his family as well at first? I mean, that was his original plan, right? I don't think so but I am no Bible scholar, just years of CCD and then later Bible study and Bible camp. He was quite angry at mankind at the time. First from betrayal of the whole "apple" issue and then Sodom and Gomorrah and mankind's depravity at the time. He wanted to spare the animals as well but then again why not just send them all to a mountain cave and pour acid rain everywhere else? Who am I to question one way or the other? I think of God as more in a Father sense. Which brings a question, can you be omnipotent and all powerful but have what some would call flaws? Should video game Gods have flaws and be adaptive and teachable? Or should they be more like what we consider as Perfection in all ways? |
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Post by idem on Feb 28, 2016 15:27:08 GMT
Questioning it is the whole point in this case since we're trying to adapt Godlike decission making into a good game.
It's exactly this kind of thing that can set a godgame apart from a strategy game. NPCs wondering why their god did what they did, and acting on whatever conclusion they draw.
Way I see it, being omniscient means you know the outcome, but you can still pose the question, since humans do not. It could mean that the whole conversation between God and Noah was a farce from God's perspective since he already knew what Noah was going to do, and what God would do in response.
Then again, knowing that an hour from now you'd feel like being forgiving doesn't mean that you stop feeling differently right now. Even us humans experience that all the time.
But a person looking at you from the outside may not draw that conclusion. And that's what I like about god games. They deal with that kind of thing.
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Post by Deth on Feb 28, 2016 16:14:52 GMT
My view on God's omniscient is when he game man free choice he opened up multiple paths that he can see as futures but with man having free will he does not know what path will be the final one. But that really is starting to head off topic. I agree that there should be choices on how you play be it a war monger or a peacenic.
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