arryu
Senior Apprentice
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Post by arryu on May 21, 2014 8:29:54 GMT
Looking back at the steam forums I noticed that there is an open letter thread locked, and it made me wonder what is the difference between a petition and an open letter?
Well, according to the Google:
pe·ti·tion [puh-tish-uhn]
noun
1.
a formally drawn request, often bearing the names of a number of those making the request, that is addressed to a person or group of persons in authority or power, soliciting some favor, right, mercy, or other benefit: a petition for clemency; a petition for the repeal of an unfair law.
2.
a request made for something desired, especially a respectful or humble request, as to a superior or to one of those in authority; a supplication or prayer: a petition for aid; a petition to God for courage and strength.
3.
something that is sought by request or entreaty: to receive one's full petition.
4.
Law. an application for a court order or for some judicial action.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/petition)
pe·ti·tion noun \pə-ˈti-shən\
: a written document that many people sign to show that they want a person or organization to do or change something
: a formal written request made to an official person or organization
law : a formal written request to have a legal case decided by a court
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/petition)
open letter noun
: a letter that is published in a newspaper but that is addressed to a well-known person or to an organization
Full Definition of OPEN LETTER
: a published letter of protest or appeal usually addressed to an individual but intended for the general public
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/open%20letter)
open letter
noun
a letter, often of protest or criticism, addressed to a specific person, but intended to be brought to public attention.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/open+letter)
By these definitions, an open letter and a petition are NOT the same. Namely, a petition is actively asking people "sign up for my cause!" whereas an open letter is saying "This is my criticism for [insert name here]. I want everyone to see this."
The OP in that thread encourages other to voice their criticisms for a compilation to be forwarded to a Steam representative, and also pleads for the post to remain succinct, honest, and above all mature. He even goes to list what should NOT be done (derailing, flame baiting, etc.). The two posts that managed to make it into the thread before it was locked are well written and mature reviews of their Godus experience and views on how 22cans handled/is still handling the current situation. I feel that these posts reflect the feelings of buyers and community members and is not telling anyone to add their voice the theirs.
This is contrary to the thread below (also locked) which IS a petition; specifically one requesting refunds, and does degrade into negative posts and off topic comments, though not nearly as bad as it could (and undoubtedly would) have been. I do not disagree with that locking entirely, as I have seen such threads go sour incredibly quickly. Looking at the open letter thread, there is nothing to suggest that the posts are anything but criticism and feedback related to Godus, as opposed to a "formally drawn request ... soliciting some favor, right, mercy, or other benefit."
So using this line of thinking, the locking of the open letter to 22cans thread was NOT in accordance with steam rules, and was in fact censoring criticism towards Godus and 22cans.
Thoughts? Agree or disagree?
I felt the need to create an account to post this here because of threats of insta bans and lockings on the steam forums, and wanted the discussion to actually have a chance to, ya know...be discussed.
Also: thinking of another petition I saw on the steam forums, there was a link included to an off-steam petition site. Should a link like that be allowed as long as it is not the main focus of the thread?
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Post by rubgish on May 21, 2014 8:42:29 GMT
The locked thread is not an open letter in itself, it is a petition to others to write open letters, hence the being locked.
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arryu
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Post by arryu on May 21, 2014 8:48:20 GMT
Ahh, I understand that thinking. But the next question is, does anyone else now dare to write something similar in the steam forums? Even if it's JUST their letter. If that happens and people simply discuss it, is that ok? If they add their own letters without being prompted will the thread be locked or removed? Based on the above, they shouldn't be able to, but....
Unfortunately Those forums are pretty ripe with ideas, suggestions, and critiques being ignored, locked or reduced to troll fodder, and as such it's hard to judge whether its even worth it to try posting something constructive or critical there.
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Casinha
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Post by Casinha on May 21, 2014 8:49:58 GMT
An open letter is a message from one to many, where a petition is a request from many to one. By definition I wouldn't really call them the same, but forum rules for this stuff tend to be directed more at the character of the post in question than anything else. Petitions can often be used to rabble-rouse and incite people into torch and pitch-fork mode, so posts that - while not being petitions - have the same goal in mind would likely get the hammer. Not saying that's what happened as I do not frequent other forums so I don't know what's going on, but I'm just attempting to answer your question.
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stuhacking
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Post by stuhacking on May 21, 2014 8:50:35 GMT
Sometimes people use the verb form of petition informally as a synonym for appeal. Formally the word is used specifically to describe an appeal to an authority, but informally it could be said that the OP in this case is appealing to the Godus Steam Community to take action against 22Cans in some way. So, I think definitionally it's a valid use of the word petition (insofar as the usage is understood). However, since the OP was only suggesting that people write an Open Letter, I don't think a thread should be locked on that basis alone. However, since the Steam community seems to be incapable of doing anything without degenerating into a pack of ravenous abusive animals I think it's hard to argue against a decision to shut some people up... If the Steam community could up their game and write some reasoned and fair commentary on why their views are negative then I think that forum as a whole would be much better, and it would give the mods less excuse to exercise their powers. |
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arryu
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Post by arryu on May 21, 2014 8:56:51 GMT
If the Steam community could up their game and write some reasoned and fair commentary on why their views are negative then I think that forum as a whole would be much better, and it would give the mods less excuse to exercise their powers. The truly sad thing is that there are at least three to five people who consistently post well thought out, honest, and legitimate concerns regarding where the game is going/has gone/hasn't gone. These same people also ask questions that are asked frequently by others in a very polite manner. Often these posts highlight exactly what that community is feeling, but end up getting ignored and lost in the jumble of people rushing to add their less thought out two cents. I do agree SOMETIMES the mods have reason to use these powers, but I also believe SOMETIMES they overstep themselves. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2014 9:24:15 GMT
If the Steam community could up their game and write some reasoned and fair commentary on why their views are negative then I think that forum as a whole would be much better, and it would give the mods less excuse to exercise their powers. The truly sad thing is that there are at least three to five people who consistently post well thought out, honest, and legitimate concerns regarding where the game is going/has gone/hasn't gone. These same people also ask questions that are asked frequently by others in a very polite manner. Often these posts highlight exactly what that community is feeling, but end up getting ignored and lost in the jumble of people rushing to add their less thought out two cents. I do agree SOMETIMES the mods have reason to use these powers, but I also believe SOMETIMES they overstep themselves. The problem is, all this questions have been ask in the backer forum before, often in a polite manner, later a bit more harsh, but never received a satisfactory reply. So i don't think they would receive an answer even if the steam forums would be heaven on earth.
I have thought about an open letter, too. A letter in which i distance myself as a backer from what godus is. And clarify that backers had almost no influence on the development (other than repeatedly publicized by 22cans). Send to the major game magazines out there. But i think my english is not good enough. Also i think it would be useless to do it as a single person.
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Post by wonkonpac on May 21, 2014 10:34:59 GMT
Regardless of whether my note or Drake's note were petitions or open letters, we were both advocating a pro-refund position. Unbeknownst to us, this is verbotten according to the "unwritten rules" of Steam conduct. These rules have now been stickied (stuck?) to the top of the Steam discussions page.
Petitions, or petition-like threads are used in many other steam discussion groups to help gauge community interest in potential features. Unfortunately, as Sundance can attest, 22Cans has shown little interest in community feedback beyond analytics. This is predating the Steam early access program, but has clearly continued into the present. This is not to say that our CMs haven't been doing an admirable job since the epic silence before the 1.4 build, but I am rather skeptical about their ability to influence Peter.
Petition-like-threads, however, have generated responses from 22Cans when they have been silent. And that is a dangerous, dangerous method of community management. It incentivizes creating petitions because - hey, at least official word will come down.
Stuhacking, I think that if you look through the forum history for those who were banned, you'll see that several-most-of us have repeatedly tried to offer feedback, suggestions, and constructive criticism regarding Godus. Emphasis on constructive! By and large, I think that the Steam community has some pretty vibrant discussions and most of the active members balance vitriol with hope. But you will definitely see hope diminishing as we get further from version 1.3. And you will see vitriol increasing whenever Peter does something like a his cryptic tweet or his 'designers have a single goal, to make money . . . and only a minor percentage of our users have offered negative feedback, and they have played for hours, so really they are lying or misguided' interviews.
*edit* In response to the original query -- The general usage is associated with a Statement followed by a bunch of signatories. The difference between a petition and an open letter? Open letters are generally published to the world, whereas a petition can be submitted privately.
As such, a petition is more closely associated with "post spam" such as "+1"
There is a third option, public comments. In most modern governments, the governed have an opportunity to comment on potential regulations before those regulations are enacted. These are considered 'public comments.' There is no promise of an individual response, or even that the comments will impact the proposed regulation, merely that it provides some insight into how X is going to play with people who care about it. I thought that I was modeling my post more along these lines. I was soliciting opinions of people who believe that 22Cans has broken the spirit of Early Access on Steam and that Steam ought to take action. I was not going to present these to 'an authority' (a la a petition), but rather to share with a friend @ Valve. I was inspired by a previous (and potentially more egregious) case, where Valve kicked an Early Access project off of steam and offered refunds to users as a gesture of good will (and potentially to ward off regulation in this largely unregulated realm).
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arryu
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Posts: 80
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Post by arryu on May 21, 2014 15:59:36 GMT
Regardless of whether my note or Drake's note were petitions or open letters, we were both advocating a pro-refund position. Unbeknownst to us, this is verbotten according to the "unwritten rules" of Steam conduct. These rules have now been stickied (stuck?) to the top of the Steam discussions page. This I think is WRONG. If there is a reason for multiple instances of people to be asking for refunds it at least warrants a look into the game, the community, and the issues between the two rather than a blanket "no refunds." Steam should be responsible for assuring the products it sells on its marketplace are indeed what they are advertised, and if it takes many people asking for refunds to bring such instances to light such threads should not be instantly removed and the posters banned. Basically "no petitions" says "deal with it" if the community has an issue. I'm wondering how said community is supposed to handle something like what is happening with 22cans without gathering a collective voice saying "WE HAVE AN ISSUE!" I feel any thread that has the word "petition" in it should NOT be able to be locked or edited by a regular moderator of CM, and instead should be flagged to a higher authority to be read and observed as there is clearly a larger issue somewhere. As for public comments. Isn't this and the steam forum a public space? Anyone is free to join and voice their opinion, all it takes is filling out a form. It took me fifteen seconds last night. However, the regulations (in this case the changes to the game) that are being handed down are not being shown to us before they are enacted, something that the community was told would be inherent in their backing. When the regulations were criticized they were then largely ignored. To me it seems that blocking petition threads is wrong in so many ways as it is stopping the communities ONLY way of bringing light to their issue that seems to be effective with 22cans. This is thread getting a bit away from what my original thought was, but I like it anyway  |
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Lord Ba'al
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on May 21, 2014 17:07:21 GMT
I think if someone wanted to rally troops to collectively take some form of action they'd be far better off here than on the steam forum. Once a course of action has been decided upon whatever petition or open letter or other form of notification can be formulated and then sent to whichever party it is intended for.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on May 21, 2014 17:32:44 GMT
I think if someone wanted to rally troops to collectively take some form of action they'd be far better off here than on the steam forum. I agree wholeheartedly. |
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arryu
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Post by arryu on May 21, 2014 17:45:58 GMT
I think if someone wanted to rally troops to collectively take some form of action they'd be far better off here than on the steam forum. I agree wholeheartedly. It's kind a telling thing when a main representative of a game believes that in order for buyers to illicit change in said game they must deviate from one of the games main selling platform to an unofficial forum to actually voice their issues without fear of bans.... |
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Post by rubgish on May 21, 2014 17:54:29 GMT
Its a totally valid point though. The steam forums have a far higher portion of people who don't have any real interest in the game and have just picked it up, played it, disliked it and wanting to tell people that. At a forum like this one, consisting mainly of initial backers of the game and people who are much more involved, we are way more likely to actually have decent discussion and be able to engage with 22cans members on a more constructive level.
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arryu
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Post by arryu on May 21, 2014 18:01:08 GMT
True, but my point is it feels like any feedback like you said, by initial backers and more involved people, are not welcome on the steam forums.
I may have misinterpreted what Ba'al and thumbz meant which I apologize for, but my point is that its upsetting that those that who haven't picked it up aren't as able to get feedback from the people who post on this forum be it due to thread locking, bannings, or just poor communication.
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Post by Qetesh on May 21, 2014 22:47:06 GMT
I have posted over there several times. I made some nice long posts and made sure not to violate any rules and never got hit by a mod stick for any of them either. I did however, also never get a single answer to my questions that I posted on Steam or 22cans, so I mainly post here now, not that I thought it would get any more answers but at least it "feels" more listened to here.
Your mod is not well liked, I highly recommend you find someone more like Sylvester and replace him. His damage is done, he came off as very bias and sneaky on 22cans too. Sorry, but it's a fact. He is doing more damage than good on Steam and pretty much most ignore him on 22cans because he has no real power since he is just another backer and we all figured out who he was on day one, when he started double speaking as himself and his backer handle, as I warned Sam would happen. Nobody would respect Ba'al either if he had a Stone handle on here backing up his debates when he was in the trenches. It's just sneaky and deceptive and creepy. Take the flack of being a Mod as you are, or you don't really belong in that position to begin with.
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on May 21, 2014 22:55:58 GMT
You're talking about that Muir guy? Yeah, that's a pr disaster, there.
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Post by banned on May 22, 2014 0:45:12 GMT
It is important to keep in mind that the Steam forum is first and foremost a sales and promotion medium.
I feel certain that the official 22cans employees are under expectations for how to treat the pages.
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Post by Qetesh on May 22, 2014 1:55:03 GMT
It is important to keep in mind that the Steam forum is first and foremost a sales and promotion medium. I feel certain that the official 22cans employees are under expectations for how to treat the pages. I agree, and the Steam forum rules support this, but do the players mostly know how bias it is? As I said before, this is where they bought the game because it is the only place they could, so how fair is it to have their main forum be so bias? I respect George for funneling some over here where we aim to allow all sides to be spoken freely, but really ultimately Steams forums are quite deceiving to the unknowing average Joe thinking he is free to speak his mind about the game he just purchased. He is in fact under a microscope and whether the Devs choose to utilize the bias rules or not is a crap shoot depending upon the amount of a shit storm they fall under and how good their PR team is or is not. The current Mod there for Godus now, is not handling it well and explains why they had to bring in some bigger guns to clean up his mess. |
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Post by banned on May 22, 2014 21:31:05 GMT
It is important to keep in mind that the Steam forum is first and foremost a sales and promotion medium. I feel certain that the official 22cans employees are under expectations for how to treat the pages. ..ultimately Steams forums are quite deceiving to the unknowing average Joe thinking he is free to speak his mind about the game he just purchased....The current Mod there for Godus now.. agree, but then human != sentient so.... Muir displays a great deal of "favoritism" and lack of neutrality, just as on the Godus board. But I enjoy pointing to it and seeing the silence in response from 22cans actual employees. That part is amusing, like poking hypocrisy anywhere. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on May 23, 2014 0:30:38 GMT
Muir displays a great deal of "favoritism" and lack of neutrality, just as on the Godus board. Do you mean to say we lack neutrality on this forum? (or rather I as I am the only moderator here) |
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