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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 1, 2014 16:51:40 GMT
Well, we got a wall of text from Matthew on the Steam forums in answer to 19 questions/clarifications. To spoil the show, it all pretty much boils down to "wait for the pc focus". The one really curious thing is the description of Hubworld which sounds like a weird multiplayer version of Voyages more than a multiplayer version of Homeworld.
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Casinha
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Post by Casinha on Jul 1, 2014 17:08:43 GMT
Better than nothing. The whole "Wait until we're done with mobile" is a bit annoying, but I'm hoping in my naiveté that they will use income from the mobile version to make the PC version into something worthy of Peter's earlier games. Thanks for posting the link.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 17:31:32 GMT
I'm trying to not let myself feel a little... let down. I should have expected such a null-response, but I like to hope they'd give us something concrete to look forward to. I think the thing that irks me the most is that I am assuming either they truly have given the PC version very little thought, or they are withholding info that may damage their image until the content can be "revamped", or both. All the while the underpinnings and vague hints that making this game really rock on the PC may be beyond the limitations of Marmalade makes me sad in pants. Urgh. I wish I could quit you Godus! Someone find me a happy forum to read until "later this year"!
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jul 1, 2014 18:11:41 GMT
Questions 4 and 18 were given fairly definitive answers, which is helpful.
I'm confused by 16. I thought some famous guy had been brought in to do the story for Godus? But the answer given seems to imply that those horrible chat-sims in the Mountain of the Gods WERE the story, and since that didn't work out, the story is now going to be implied through the progression of civilisation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 18:57:35 GMT
Just posted on Steam
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- G.K. @ 22Cans [developer] 2 hours ago ------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by earl_parvisjam: That whole wall of text can be translated to "we don't have anything to say about this now and will look into it when we shift to pc focus." I'm not sure silence was any worse than that fluff. -------------------------------------------------
Well, we had said that we were busy focusing on other things right now, so...
Also, feedback like that is hardly likely to motivate the dev team to take the time out of a sprint to answer your questions in future. Last edited by G.K. @ 22Cans; 2 hours ago
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I agree that you "catch more flys with honey than vinegar" ... but did G.K. really just allude to threatening the community with more silence in response to a negative comment? /sigh
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 1, 2014 19:02:19 GMT
Questions 4 and 18 were given fairly definitive answers, which is helpful. I'm confused by 16. I thought some famous guy had been brought in to do the story for Godus? But the answer given seems to imply that those horrible chat-sims in the Mountain of the Gods WERE the story, and since that didn't work out, the story is now going to be implied through the progression of civilisation. Yeah...That pretty much seems to be the case. I'm not sure about outright ditching it for subtle implication, but if you look through the files, all those cheesy bits of dialogue at the Mount were named story. I looked at that and couldn't help but go, "Really?" I'll give them this, it's mildly unique, but not in a good way. It has all the bad taste of fourth-wall breaking tutorials that try to roll with it in the story somehow. The only case where this has ever proven good, if you ask me, is in a game like Conker's Bad Fur Day where they mock it and numerous other game tropes. I agree that you "catch more flys with honey" ... but did G.K. really just allude to threatening the community with more silence in response to a negative comment? /sigh Incoming response, probably: "No, no, that wasn't my intent at all! I should have phrased that better." With the undertones of: "This is why I write everything as positively as possible otherwise these guys will read everything negative out of it."
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jul 1, 2014 19:13:14 GMT
I agree that you "catch more flys with honey than vinegar" ... but did G.K. really just allude to threatening the community with more silence in response to a negative comment? /sigh I had to hassle Jack for over a week to take time out of the sprint to get replies to your questions over to you and the first response was to say that it wasn't worth it! How do you think I'm going to feel? Hence my reaction.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 19:21:33 GMT
I agree that you "catch more flys with honey than vinegar" ... but did G.K. really just allude to threatening the community with more silence in response to a negative comment? /sigh I had to hassle Jack for over a week to take time out of the sprint to get replies to your questions over to you and the first response was to say that it wasn't worth it! How do you think I'm going to feel? Hence my reaction. I might be able to empathize with how you feel. I have been in very similar situations. I don't want to downplay the effort it took to make that post happen, but regardless of how people being ungrateful makes you and the team feel, responding with hollow, even ironically silly threats of silence isn't going to get us anywhere. I do appreciate your and Jack's efforts to be transparent, and I apologise for my negativity, but it really does seem like the majority of that post was filled with non-answers, sidestepping harder questions, and unspecific metaphors. I wish I could express my mixed feelings for this entire thing. On one hand I'm hoping you guys knock it out of the park, on the other I am still very skeptical. Waiting is the worst part of this entire endeavor.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jul 1, 2014 19:26:20 GMT
Waiting is the worst part of this entire endeavor. Tell me about it. But, I suppose that's the reality of videogames development. I'm just a bit inured to it, having worked on a project that overran by two years before. Dev takes time. Has all our time been spent in areas that you'd like us to have done to date? Well, obviously not. But that's doesn't mean we won't be devoting time to correct that later on this years (which is technically "soon" in traditional development terms). And if you're frustrated with me always saying the exact same thing in a variety of slightly different ways, imagine how frustrating it is to only have the same responses to come back with each and every time.
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Post by hardly on Jul 1, 2014 19:38:37 GMT
The PC pause is going to make things awkward for the foreseeable future. It won't end in autumn either (us autumn not Southern Hemisphere autumn) as they haven't just stopped coding PC they've stopped thinking about it as well. George is the mouthpiece of 22cans. We need to understand George does his best for us and he needs to understand we have to be able to criticise the bits of 22cans that aren't him with out him taking offence. In that vein I think 22cans are making a lot of mistakes.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jul 1, 2014 20:11:35 GMT
The PC pause is going to make things awkward for the foreseeable future. It won't end in autumn either (us autumn not Southern Hemisphere autumn) as they haven't just stopped coding PC they've stopped thinking about it as well. George is the mouthpiece of 22cans. We need to understand George does his best for us and he needs to understand we have to be able to criticise the bits of 22cans that aren't him with out him taking offence. In that vein I think 22cans are making a lot of mistakes. This is a very fair point. I hope it comes across that I am not blind to some of the mistakes that you think we've made. Btw, we haven't stopped coding for PC. The Settlements update is as much for PC players as it is for mobile gamers.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 1, 2014 22:25:24 GMT
I agree that you "catch more flys with honey than vinegar" ... but did G.K. really just allude to threatening the community with more silence in response to a negative comment? /sigh I had to hassle Jack for over a week to take time out of the sprint to get replies to your questions over to you and the first response was to say that it wasn't worth it! How do you think I'm going to feel? Hence my reaction. While I understand your frustration but the answers he gave were the equivalent of taking a sheet of questions and drawing a penis on it before handing it back. You have to admit that (at best) there were two answers with information on them beyond "wait for the pc focus" out of 19. Even then, it was ultra-vague and nothing we haven't seen before. Threatening silence isn't scary to someone that's been through the dead period. I sat around waiting for a faq that petered out. Even the road map was months of waiting. If anything, the recent lack of silence since you've arrived is what's atypical. Going silent is just returning to status quo. If anyone disrespected you, it's Jack for giving you nothing to work with. The sprint isn't an excuse. Most of those questions have been around for the bulk of this project. Heck, Question #1&2 have been around since 1.x and we've heard zippo in response. They could have been answered months ago and have been ignored. The only difference now is that we have someone that's honestly pushing for answers and you're getting the sort of responses we've been hearing all along and gotten sick of.
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Post by hardly on Jul 1, 2014 23:07:40 GMT
Earl I'm not saying its right but peter and Jack can't answer the questions because they don't know. Is it a good thing that a game two years+ into development doesn't have the basic premise mechanics mapped out? No. Should they have spent more time designing the game before they released it? Yes. Has the joint mobile/PC development fucked the PC version? Yes. We can't change 22cans at this point. If they want to take a haphazard approach to development (no design document) and hope they stumble on a fun game through iterative design then they are going to do that. Personally I think if you can't explain in plain language your vision then the implementation of it will probably be shit. So yeah answers weren't great but 22cans weren't holding anything back they just don't have anything to share and that is truly scary.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 1, 2014 23:23:31 GMT
Earl I'm not saying its right but peter and Jack can't answer the questions because they don't know. Is it a good thing that a game two years+ into development doesn't have the basic premise mechanics mapped out? No. Should they have spent more time designing the game before they released it? Yes. Has the joint mobile/PC development fucked the PC version? Yes. We can't change 22cans at this point. If they want to take a haphazard approach to development (no design document) and hope they stumble on a fun game through iterative design then they are going to do that. Personally I think if you can't explain in plain language your vision then the implementation of it will probably be shit. So yeah answers weren't great but 22cans weren't holding anything back they just don't have anything to share and that is truly scary. At some point, 22Cans needs its feet held to the fire. There have been enough insulting interviews, silent spells, and dodgy answers to wipe out nearly all the goodwill I had for this project. When I see more of the same, I'm going to point it out. I'm not going to take my steaming pile of poo and be thankful it was anything at all. It's not like Peter and Jack are all alone in trying to make this game work. We've been suggesting and debating possibilities amongst ourselves for months. They don't want to listen and seem to think they can do it all on their own. I'm not going to look away when someone pulls back the curtains just because I already know there's nothing there. I'm going to shout at the top of my lungs that the emperor has no clothes. I'm going to point out just what I see is wrong and I'm going to make darn sure that my voice is heard by as many people as I can get to hear it, not because they deserve to be punished but because this project, those that have spent money on it, and the silent developers deserve better and its my only means of pushing for change.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jul 2, 2014 8:20:37 GMT
Well, I feel really sorry for Matthew and George. I don't believe they can talk freely about Godus because apart from needing to be positive about the game they are promoting (obviously), they are STILL labouring under an NDA which is filtering all the info they give us the point of "I don't know" and "wait and see". Matthew and George, I hope you understand why the community continues to feel frustrated and pissed off at these responses, regardless of whether you have any control over it and regardless of how much effort you had to put in to bring these answers to us.
I don't believe (or at least don't want to believe) that 22Cans literally has no idea what is going on or what it's doing, but this is what Jack's responses would seem to suggest.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 15:26:50 GMT
Posted on the Steam Forums under Statements we'd like clarified and questions we'd like answered. (emphasis my own)
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Muir 1 hour ago Overall, I think Jack's answers addressed quite a few concerns. Did they address all of them? No, but he did say that the ones which weren't able to be addressed now will be addressed once the desktop specific sprints start. And since this is the first real promise that Jack has given to the community, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Doubly so since I can confirm that Jack will be working very closely with the sprint for the desktop versions once the launch window for the mobile version has passed later on this year.
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Obviously I'm kind of green to the Godus community, so take this as an honest inquiry, not a veiled insult... is Muir acutally in a position to be basically speaking for the production team and calling things "promises"? What I get from this paragraph is that Muir is attempting to reaffirming that Jack has promised the community that they WILL have answers for us WHEN the PC sprint STARTS. He sounds very certain, but with words like "iterative" being tossed around, I'm not so confident.
What do you guys think?
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jul 2, 2014 15:45:40 GMT
Muir has acted like he's had inside info about 22Cans for as long as I've been around the forums (since October). I think it's possibly more true now than it used to be, because he seems to talk to George and Matthew a lot outside of the forums, but any time he says he's "confirmed" something I'd take it with a pinch of salt. He's been wrong plenty of times.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 2, 2014 16:00:28 GMT
Posted on the Steam Forums under Statements we'd like clarified and questions we'd like answered. (emphasis my own) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Muir 1 hour ago Overall, I think Jack's answers addressed quite a few concerns. Did they address all of them? No, but he did say that the ones which weren't able to be addressed now will be addressed once the desktop specific sprints start. And since this is the first real promise that Jack has given to the community, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Doubly so since I can confirm that Jack will be working very closely with the sprint for the desktop versions once the launch window for the mobile version has passed later on this year. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Obviously I'm kind of green to the Godus community, so take this as an honest inquiry, not a veiled insult... is Muir acutally in a position to be basically speaking for the production team and calling things "promises"? What I get from this paragraph is that Muir is attempting to reaffirming that Jack has promised the community that they WILL have answers for us WHEN the PC sprint STARTS. He sounds very certain, but with words like "iterative" being tossed around, I'm not so confident. What do you guys think? Note the use of the term sprint for the desktop period. The term's been used as an excuse for silence already. Anyone that's worked with software development knows that sprints aren't one-time things. It'll be an excuse for silence when the pc focus comes in and we'll be waiting for Jack to stop his "very important work" and tell us what is happening. The excuses for silence (and answering a question with "we'll look into it down the road" isn't an answer) have shifted over time. In March/April it was the mobile kickoff they were pushing to get done. Then Iterative design showed up. Now, it's sprints. I'm more curious in what the next excuse will be once the pc focus kicks off. It took G.K. weeks to get those answers from Jack. Our only difference between April and today is that we have G.K. pestering them directly...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 16:02:58 GMT
Note the use of the term sprint for the desktop period. The term's been used as an excuse for silence already. Anyone that's worked with software development knows that sprints aren't one-time things. It'll be an excuse for silence when the pc focus comes in and we'll be waiting for Jack to stop his "very important work" and tell us what is happening. The excuses for silence (and answering a question with "we'll look into it down the road" isn't an answer) have shifted over time. In March/April it was the mobile kickoff they were pushing to get done. Then Iterative design showed up. Now, it's sprints. I'm more curious in what the next excuse will be once the pc focus kicks off. It took G.K. weeks to get those answers from Jack. Our only difference between April and today is that we have G.K. pestering them directly... That's why I was a little confused... It appears to me like he is clearly pointing out a promise that they will have these answers for us ONCE the sprints start... not after. I thought it was an interesting choice of words. An interesting "promise", if you will.
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