Dawnreaver
Junior Apprentice
Diablo III - Reaper of Souls, Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, Thief
Posts: 66
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Post by Dawnreaver on Feb 27, 2014 0:10:29 GMT
I think I realized a long time ago that there are more ideas than there are people and if you have a large project in mind then it'll most likely never get made. With that in mind, I moved my efforts towards making something small and then building upon it, a little bit at a time. That way, even if you stop, you still have something that seems like a finished project, although small. I used this method to develop a card game and 18 months on, I have something that I've been playtesting with many people and getting great feedback on. About 10 months ago, I had to completely redesign the game due to complexity issues. As a result, I have something very different from the original idea but very nice. Tell us more
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Post by tehown on Feb 27, 2014 0:14:36 GMT
I think I realized a long time ago that there are more ideas than there are people and if you have a large project in mind then it'll most likely never get made. With that in mind, I moved my efforts towards making something small and then building upon it, a little bit at a time. That way, even if you stop, you still have something that seems like a finished project, although small. I used this method to develop a card game and 18 months on, I have something that I've been playtesting with many people and getting great feedback on. About 10 months ago, I had to completely redesign the game due to complexity issues. As a result, I have something very different from the original idea but very nice. Tell us more I would but I'm incredibly close to a retail product right now (in negotiations with artists) and I'd rather wait and create video guides/previews when it's ready to distribute. I may even go Kickstarter to pay for the print run. I'll let you all know if I do. In short, it's a game where you control 4 different elements and cast spells to score points. The spells can benefit you or hinder your opponent but the primary reason to cast them is to gain point for victory. Also, it's SHARED DECK... since I absolutely hate pay2win card games. Additionally... the redesign was needed because the cost/power/score of all the cards were seemingly unrelated. Some cards did nothing but scored highly. Some cards cost little but scored no points. Now points are directly related to cost and so is the power of the effect. All multi-element cards were removed and each element has its own signature effect that defines its playstyle. It's really important to apply KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) to design since we've all been subject to convoluted gameplay systems which frustrate us. Enjoyable gameplay comes from complex interactions, not complex systems. Minecraft is an excellent example of this. p.s. I didn't intend to hijack this thread to talk about my own projects! xD
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Feb 27, 2014 0:24:34 GMT
I don't consider that hijacking, this topic is exactly what this thread is about. Whether it is your own game or somebody else's own game makes no difference.
Is your game a computer game or an actual card game?
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Post by tehown on Feb 27, 2014 0:29:01 GMT
Is your game a computer game or an actual card game? Physical card game, since I really enjoy meeting up with my friends in person instead of them saying, "Why don't we just go on Skype?". Not that I feel it couldn't be a computer game but I just prefer the idea of everyone sitting around a table with a few drinks and playing my game. I actually visited my brother and his flat-mate the other day and introduced them to my game. The best feedback is when you try to leave and they go, "Just one more game!". It was nearly midnight when I finally got home. To tell you the truth, I didn't expect it to get this far. It started as a design exercise to keep my mind busy while doing mundane (read: copy-paste) web programming.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Feb 27, 2014 0:34:04 GMT
Well I hope your game makes it into production. By all means let us know when it hits the shelves.
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Post by tehown on Feb 27, 2014 0:40:35 GMT
Well I hope your game makes it into production. By all means let us know when it hits the shelves. I'd release it tomorrow if I could but unfortunately I was blessed with a complete lack of artistic talent! My current cards are plain white with colored text, not very exciting. And before that, they were white cards with names of cards scribbled on them with permanent marker. You had to have a "reference sheet" to tell you the cost and effect of each card. Design is fun!
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Post by carcosa on Feb 27, 2014 5:09:43 GMT
Have you ever looked into the card game V:Tes Tehown? Out of print now (sadly) but probably the best mechanics for a card game I have ever seen (and, I have played quite a few). It takes the KISS rules and curb stomps them however, at least initially till you get a handle on it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire:_The_Eternal_Struggle
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stuhacking
Master
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Post by stuhacking on Feb 27, 2014 9:32:00 GMT
Seriously though, could you explain what you mean with emergent storytelling in more detail? I'm not quite getting it. Firstly, I don't think it's possible to write a program that will replace a good writer (or artist, musician, or any other creative person), so hence this experiment is doomed to utter failure! Emergent behaviour is something I think is interesting. So instead of having very scripted characters as in, say, Half-Life; you have characters that respond to events using a set of simple rules. E.g. "My health is low, I will now go into cover", "I see a hostile, I will call for backup". These types of rules can combine to form patterns that are less predicable and feel lifelike (or sometimes silly!), but are harder to control. Procedural content means instead of prefabricating areas in full, you write a program which will use a formula to put together assets when an area loads up. For procedural storytelling, (using formulas to put together bits of stories) there's examples like the radiant quest system in Skyrim, but it also showcases a big shortcoming which is that the system is essentially a madlib generator: "Hero, Go to ______ and find me the ______ inside." So I want to try and combine elements of both of these to have a truly emergent story system. Instead of fill in the blanks plots, I want to model character arcs and goals that are compelled by things like a character's desires, ambitions, skills and needs. There'll probably be some amount of madlibs to kick off plot lines, but I don't want it to be shallow. Essentially what I want to be able to say is "Does the world currently have a precedent for a dramatic betrayal between two brothers? If it does, I'll simply put a goal on one of the brothers to eventually commit an act of betrayal: but after that I would want the emergent behaviour of that character to try and compel the arc... It's still a very loose concept in my head. I don't want to give the impression that I'm going to 'simulate every single character all the time' as that would be impractical. I want a story engine to be doing all the work for this in the background and only deeply simulating things that are important in the context of a storyline... I would like if this could be used, either for a god game style sim where you sit back and watch interactions and plots develop (and if you see a character goal you like, maybe you put things in place to assist it!); or as a story progression system for an open ended RPG. e.i. an RPG where you just live in a world and find things to do, and there isn't an ultimate 'end goal' except the one that you determine for yourself...
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Post by carcosa on Feb 27, 2014 10:27:12 GMT
Sounds like you are trying to construct an RPG (not these "things" people WANT to call RPGS, or MMORPG'S), but a actual synthesis of PC based gaming and a RPG.
That requires some *serious* attention to make it work. I have run such things on a monthly basis with a mere 40-50 odd characters and 6-10 Refs/DM/GM's to do it. It's a hard target you are setting yourself.
*UNLESS* You can create or use a existing AI system or dial back your desires or run "guilds" rather than individuals.
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stuhacking
Master
Posts: 170
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Post by stuhacking on Feb 27, 2014 10:54:56 GMT
That requires some *serious* attention to make it work. I have run such things on a monthly basis with a mere 40-50 odd characters and 6-10 Refs/DM/GM's to do it. It's a hard target you are setting yourself. Oh, absolutely! Like I said, it's a starry eyed pipe dream :-) That said, What I want is the experimentation, and reading, and study. And if I can get part way towards a workable system, I'll consider it a big win :-)
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Post by carcosa on Feb 27, 2014 10:59:14 GMT
No pipe dream, just what are you after in a realistic setting?
A game that "does it all" is doomed to fail, Even D&D 4.0 with 30 plus years of backing blew chunks because of this. What do you *really* want?
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Feb 27, 2014 12:18:40 GMT
Seriously though, could you explain what you mean with emergent storytelling in more detail? I'm not quite getting it. Firstly, I don't think it's possible to write a program that will replace a good writer (or artist, musician, or any other creative person), so hence this experiment is doomed to utter failure! Emergent behaviour is something I think is interesting. So instead of having very scripted characters as in, say, Half-Life; you have characters that respond to events using a set of simple rules. E.g. "My health is low, I will now go into cover", "I see a hostile, I will call for backup". These types of rules can combine to form patterns that are less predicable and feel lifelike (or sometimes silly!), but are harder to control. Procedural content means instead of prefabricating areas in full, you write a program which will use a formula to put together assets when an area loads up. For procedural storytelling, (using formulas to put together bits of stories) there's examples like the radiant quest system in Skyrim, but it also showcases a big shortcoming which is that the system is essentially a madlib generator: "Hero, Go to ______ and find me the ______ inside." So I want to try and combine elements of both of these to have a truly emergent story system. Instead of fill in the blanks plots, I want to model character arcs and goals that are compelled by things like a character's desires, ambitions, skills and needs. There'll probably be some amount of madlibs to kick off plot lines, but I don't want it to be shallow. Essentially what I want to be able to say is "Does the world currently have a precedent for a dramatic betrayal between two brothers? If it does, I'll simply put a goal on one of the brothers to eventually commit an act of betrayal: but after that I would want the emergent behaviour of that character to try and compel the arc... It's still a very loose concept in my head. I don't want to give the impression that I'm going to 'simulate every single character all the time' as that would be impractical. I want a story engine to be doing all the work for this in the background and only deeply simulating things that are important in the context of a storyline... I would like if this could be used, either for a god game style sim where you sit back and watch interactions and plots develop (and if you see a character goal you like, maybe you put things in place to assist it!); or as a story progression system for an open ended RPG. e.i. an RPG where you just live in a world and find things to do, and there isn't an ultimate 'end goal' except the one that you determine for yourself... Wow. That does sound like an incredible hard task. But if you pull it off you'll be THE man. You might be able to simulate something that would have the appearance of that if you'd put in an awful lot of variables accompanied by an awful lot of random number generating.
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