Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 6, 2014 11:26:01 GMT
I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is, to be honest. This discussion felt out of place when it existed in another thread so I split the topic and created this. |
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Casinha
Master
Posts: 217 
Pledge level: Partner
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Post by Casinha on Aug 6, 2014 11:47:43 GMT
I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is, to be honest. This discussion felt out of place when it existed in another thread so I split the topic and created this. Ah, right, that makes sense. So, uh. Morality, eh? That's some...deep stuff? Very philosophical. |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 6, 2014 11:48:54 GMT
Watch the video I put on previous page. it has a lot to do with morality.
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 6, 2014 12:07:37 GMT
IMHO..........I believe he also created this thread because while we do want open and direct communication on our forum, we don't want witch hunts. This thread in this instance is directly related to one, but in the future should the matter arise again, it can be used for others.
We don't mind hard core heated debates and part of that might be hurt feelings or cause sore tempers. We expect that everyone accepts that and that we all understand that all of our members are welcome here. If Myself or Ba'al has an issue with a poster, they would get a PM from one of us letting them know that.
We are one big happy/unhappy family of mutts here at the land of Lord Ba'al.
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 6, 2014 12:12:59 GMT
Mutts? But I'm a spider with a cat-like habits.
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Casinha
Master
Posts: 217
Pledge level: Partner
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Post by Casinha on Aug 6, 2014 12:16:39 GMT
I'd watch the video, but it's over an hour long and I'm at work. What's the gist of it?
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 6, 2014 12:17:55 GMT
Mutts? But I'm a spider with a cat-like habits. Damn, you better stay away our my kitties! They love to chase and kill bugs and creepy things. |
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Post by rubgish on Aug 6, 2014 13:31:09 GMT
Of course he is welcome to have his opinion on things, but not every opinion is equally valid and it is silly to think that it is true. From his posts and what I've read of his comments (not just in that thread, you can genuinely go back to his earliest posts and see the sexist stuff coming out), he seems like a very unpleasant person. So ehm, who's the judge on whose opinions are valid and whose are not? So yes, it is personal - he's sexist, homophobic & obnoxious. If it is so personal then that seems to warrant discussion in a thread about that specific topic. Another option is to have a private discussion. I don't suppose you'd like to have a private discussion with him though. Now you might be okay with letting that continue because it's the internet and people are free to do what they want, but I'm not okay with that. If someone is being sexist, racist, homophobic or generally being an asshole, I am going to call them out on it. Chances are it won't change his behaviour, but if you don't challenge people on their opinions they feel vindicated and think that everyone agrees with them. At least this way, if some random person is reading the threads, they won't read his arguments and think that no-one opposes them. I agree with your sentiment, but I didn't see him post anything sexist, racist or homophobic in this thread. Now if he's going to post productive comments about Godus, I'll happily read the comment & reply if I think there is something I can add to the discussion. As for this thread, I dunno about you, but referencing "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" and nothing else doesn't seem productive. Not that really anything much in this thread or even the whole forum has been very productive lately, but that is probably a discussion for a different time. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is just a proverb. It's been around for ages and it wouldn't have been if it didn't have a certain poignant truth about it. A deeply religious person might take offense of it, but the way the phrase was used doesn't appear to have any religious undertone to it. Also, there are no regulations stating that a post has to be productive. If there had been such regulations I would probably have had to string myself up to a tree by now. Look, it might seem like I'm being harsh on you but I would have said these same things to any other member and I would also speak up for any other member if their persona were to become a target. So far it was all very innocent but I've been around the block and I know what these things could lead to if allowed to fester on their own. I just decided to nip it in the bud. This is also not me against you personally. I know there are other people who are of the same opinion as you who might do the same thing, so I am speaking to everyone here. As for my personal opinion on morsealworth, I would say he's rather eccentric. He also seems strongly opinionated and definitely not dumb. None of these things are a reason not to welcome him on the forum. In fact, those could be viewed as admirable traits for a member of any forum. It is apparent to me that his culture is very different from my own. His sense of humour is very different from mine as well, this much is clear from the videos I've seen him post. In my opinion this adds to the variety of the forum. As for the whole debate on sexism and whatnot, I didn't really get into it because I wasn't interested in participating in that discussion. From what I did see of it I have to say that although morsealworth took a rather non-standard (couldn't find the right word) standpoint, he did provide arguments for it. On the other hand there were a whole bunch of people countering with what seemed to be mainly emotionally laden reasoning, which was ironically part of the topic of the thread. Regardless of whether I would agree with him or not, I think despite him being one against many, he managed to hold his own. Judging validity of opinions is obviously a difficult task in most circumstances, but not so much in more extreme situations. For example, if someone thought that it was morally okay to kill random people for fun, then it's an opinion they hold, but it's a shitty opinion. If someone thinks that homosexuals don't deserve the same rights as non-homosexuals, then it's an opinion they hold, but it's a shitty opinion. Naturally I don't want a private discussion with him because I don't want to talk to him, nothing he has said has been interesting, thought-provoking or useful. As for this thread (before it got split), it just began with me agreeing with George about a post he made. Everything from there is me replying to other peoples comments, so you cannot blame me for the thread derailing in such a way. If George had not posted, morsealworth's post would most likely have just been ignored and the thread would have carried on exactly the same way as it did before. Most proverbs aren't around for ages not because they have a poignant truth, but because they are bloody obvious. I mean saying "sometimes even if you try and do good stuff it goes wrong" isn't exactly surprising, it's just a convenient way of saying an obvious fact. Useful maybe at times to remind someone that they should be cautious and not expect everything to go fantastically well, but hardly relevant to the discussion because 22cans are now clearly very cautious in promising anything because they know we'll whine if it's not delivered 100% on time 100% the way we expected. If you'd read the thread, morsealworths arguments look like they are scientific, but it's just obscuring non-scientific arguments underneath them. Yes there are physical differences in the average male brain vs average female brain, but it's not possible at current to draw any conclusions from that (we really have no fucking clue how the brain works at all). It's like when a newspaper tries to summarise a scientific paper and it goes "NEW DRUG CURES CANCER", when actually the scientific paper states that a drug has been shown to kill specific types of cancer cells in a petri dish. Sure the newspaper links back to the actual journal article, but it's still utter rubbish on the part of the newspaper and completely misrepresents the actual facts. To conclude, I'm not going to change my behaviour. I will continue to pretty much ignore everything he has to say unless it's related to Godus and if he's sexist, homophobic or whatever I will continue to call him out on it. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 6, 2014 14:25:12 GMT
Judging validity of opinions is obviously a difficult task in most circumstances, but not so much in more extreme situations. For example, if someone thought that it was morally okay to kill random people for fun, then it's an opinion they hold, but it's a shitty opinion. If someone thinks that homosexuals don't deserve the same rights as non-homosexuals, then it's an opinion they hold, but it's a shitty opinion. Agreed. Yet in certain countries it is customary for women to be completely covered from top to bottom, in some cases to the extreme of not even being allowed to show their eyes. This is not something that I could ever agree with, but it is the way those cultures exist. Likewise there are many other things that would seem weird or unjustifiable to us in countries all across the world. At a certain point you just have to accept people for their differences no matter how grossly you feel your/their rights as you see them are being violated. Naturally I don't want a private discussion with him because I don't want to talk to him, nothing he has said has been interesting, thought-provoking or useful. Very understandable. I would not want to do so either had I been in your shoes. Yet, apparently you did find certain things interesting enough to debate them. As for this thread (before it got split), it just began with me agreeing with George about a post he made. Everything from there is me replying to other peoples comments, so you cannot blame me for the thread derailing in such a way. If George had not posted, morsealworth's post would most likely have just been ignored and the thread would have carried on exactly the same way as it did before. I did not blame you nor anyone for derailing a thread. You should know that I am very lenient towards thread derailments on this forum. You are correct that Monkeythumbz started it anyway, so let's all give him a stern look.  But then, Monkeythumbz did delete his post. I had in fact not even seen it by then, I could only see it because it was quoted in your post. You did jump on the bandwagon though. Like I said before, I am not trying to single you out over this, you should see this topic as something that I would hold all forum members accountable for. It's not like you perpetrated a gross offense in any way. I just wanted to address this early on before it gets the chance to escalate into something nasty. Most proverbs aren't around for ages not because they have a poignant truth, but because they are bloody obvious. I mean saying "sometimes even if you try and do good stuff it goes wrong" isn't exactly surprising, it's just a convenient way of saying an obvious fact. Useful maybe at times to remind someone that they should be cautious and not expect everything to go fantastically well, but hardly relevant to the discussion because 22cans are now clearly very cautious in promising anything because they know we'll whine if it's not delivered 100% on time 100% the way we expected. In your opinion it was not relevant to the discussion. In my opinion it was. Either way, this is not really relevant to this discussion. If you'd read the thread, morsealworths arguments look like they are scientific, but it's just obscuring non-scientific arguments underneath them. Yes there are physical differences in the average male brain vs average female brain, but it's not possible at current to draw any conclusions from that (we really have no fucking clue how the brain works at all). It's like when a newspaper tries to summarise a scientific paper and it goes "NEW DRUG CURES CANCER", when actually the scientific paper states that a drug has been shown to kill specific types of cancer cells in a petri dish. Sure the newspaper links back to the actual journal article, but it's still utter rubbish on the part of the newspaper and completely misrepresents the actual facts. As this is actually the topic of the other thread I think it's best not to continue this part of the discussion in here. It is besides the point of this thread. I know, I started it, my bad. To conclude, I'm not going to change my behaviour. I will continue to pretty much ignore everything he has to say unless it's related to Godus and if he's sexist, homophobic or whatever I will continue to call him out on it. I never asked for you to change your opinions or behaviour, you are completely free to call anyone out. In this case however, morsealworth didn't make any sexist, homophobic or whatever post on this particular thread, yet you replied as if he did, taking whatever your feelings were about what was said in another thread into this one. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 6, 2014 14:33:57 GMT
Agreed. Yet in certain countries it is customary for women to be completely covered from top to bottom, in some cases to the extreme of not even being allowed to show their eyes. This is not something that I could ever agree with, but it is the way those cultures exist. Likewise there are many other things that would seem weird or unjustifiable to us in countries all across the world. At a certain point you just have to accept people for their differences no matter how grossly you feel your/their rights as you see them are being violated.I'm not so sure I agree, or at least not in all cases. I grew up in world with apartheid in South Africa supported (or at least not condemned) by the British Government and gross injustices being carried out in Northern Ireland. I think it's important to stand up against such atrocities, regardless of contextual cultural differences. As for the LGBTQ and women's rights issues, despite the fact I am a cisgendered straight white male, these are concerns that are very dear to my heart and I personally feel it's important to lend visible support to such causes wherever and whenever possible. |
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Post by rubgish on Aug 6, 2014 14:54:50 GMT
Judging validity of opinions is obviously a difficult task in most circumstances, but not so much in more extreme situations. For example, if someone thought that it was morally okay to kill random people for fun, then it's an opinion they hold, but it's a shitty opinion. If someone thinks that homosexuals don't deserve the same rights as non-homosexuals, then it's an opinion they hold, but it's a shitty opinion. Agreed. Yet in certain countries it is customary for women to be completely covered from top to bottom, in some cases to the extreme of not even being allowed to show their eyes. This is not something that I could ever agree with, but it is the way those cultures exist. Likewise there are many other things that would seem weird or unjustifiable to us in countries all across the world. At a certain point you just have to accept people for their differences no matter how grossly you feel your/their rights as you see them are being violated. To conclude, I'm not going to change my behaviour. I will continue to pretty much ignore everything he has to say unless it's related to Godus and if he's sexist, homophobic or whatever I will continue to call him out on it. I never asked for you to change your opinions or behaviour, you are completely free to call anyone out. In this case however, morsealworth didn't make any sexist, homophobic or whatever post on this particular thread, yet you replied as if he did, taking whatever your feelings were about what was said in another thread into this one. We have different opinions on morality. There is not a point where I would accept something that I consider absolutely wrong just because of a different culture or differing opinion. I don't believe that I implied he made any sexist or homophobic comments in that thread at all, so I don't know how you got that impression. All I did was agree with another poster, who had (perhaps unnecessarily) disagreed with one of morsealworths posts because of his opinion on other matters. From then onwards, I was defending my position & right to post that reply. On bringing up of other threads, if a topic is related to another one, then surely it's perfectly normal to talk about the old discussion in the new topic. In this case, the thread was somewhat derailed into a topic of morality, at which point the previous thread becomes very relevant. Maybe the discussion should have stopped or moved to a different thread before this point (as it has done now), but that is a fault for all of us involved in the discussion. |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 6, 2014 15:08:12 GMT
You really need to see the video I posted. Not that you will ever understand the fundamental absence of absolute morality.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 6, 2014 15:48:14 GMT
And this is why most forums do not allow the discussing of any such matters at all.
Because once you start allowing it, there's no stopping or drawing a line.
Afterall, we all have different opinions, views and levels of tolerance - and some of us come from completely different cultural backgrounds to draw upon as frame of reference.
Personally I'm of the opinion that a healthy discussion with someone who doesn't see eye to eye with you can be very interesting and enlightning.
Aslong as both people are willing to accept that their view is not "superior", but is merely different. There is no inherent 'right and wrong' in an opinion.
But just because you have the right to your opinion - does not mean you have to impose that onto someone else.
With that in mind, it is often recommended to simply keep such conflicting topics under control.
As not everyone will be as receptive to them nor as willing to maintain a normal conversation.
As a rule, I try not enter any form of deep discussion or debate of a serious nature - unless I know that the other party understands what they are getting into.
Similarly, intentionally baiting someone unprovoked is usually not a good move.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 6, 2014 16:04:46 GMT
*sips coffee*
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 6, 2014 17:22:31 GMT
Okay. It is time for a morality lesson.
What is morality?
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 6, 2014 17:24:56 GMT
Love thy neighbour as you love thyself. |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 6, 2014 17:50:03 GMT
Love thy neighbour as you love thyself. Baal (not the admin, the real one) and all of his followers would not agree with you. Also, This, my friend, is the mechanism of tradition. Social Learning. Positive and negative conditioning creates concept of good (rewarded, either you or someone you saw) and bad (punished, either you or someone else you can associate yourself with). When two are combined, the morality emerges. The funniest thing is? Being moral does not make you human than other people. And there is no paradox, as tradition is just a conditioned reflex that has an emotion as a result. Nothing special, nothing intelligent, nothing superior, nothing virtuous. It is a basic means of survival being slowly turning into absurd by reproduction in newer generation which has absolutely no idea where all the shit came fro, but they fear that if it isn't followed, something terrible would happen. In fact, they fear the violation, the "sin", if I use Christian propaganda terminology, itself - there is no need for punishment anymore, the fear of punisment is only neede in childhood when, for example, a priests gives children psychological traumas and nightmares... with stories. Very, very scary stories about punishment of "bad people". Who are "bad" because they are punished, not the other way round, if you actually think about it. And this change of places between cause and effect makes the fear even stronger, because it endorses ignorance. And here we come back again: |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 6, 2014 17:58:14 GMT
I like meatloaf. :B
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 6, 2014 18:02:30 GMT
me too  |
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Post by rubgish on Aug 6, 2014 18:04:09 GMT
Nice argument, but it only applies to morality obtained through tradition. I'm sure that anyone who follows a religious-based morality, consequentialists, followers of virtue ethics, followers of utilitarianism, anyone who believes in absolute morality, hedonists etc... basically anyone who doesn't base their morality unthinkingly on the culture surrounding them, will disagree with your points.
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Aug 21, 2024 19:32:37 GMT
