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Post by Danjal on Aug 21, 2014 12:33:07 GMT
You're not wrong about the history earl but what if for the sake of argument we set up a thread to discuss a particular aspect of GODUS and 22Cans agreed to have a real back and forth conversation in that thread, would you agree to let go of the history and focus on the discussion in that particular thread? I'm not suggesting you pretend you like the game just that we don't dredge the past in specific threads where there is a real dialogue going. Then - just like Earl states above - we will get ignored because we do not represent a market of millions of mobile users. Unless your interests are to worship the ground peter walks on and give in to the shallow imitation of farmville/cookieclicker gameplay. You know we've tried what you suggest, we've tried it many many times. I still occasionally provide them with TAILORED suggestions keeping into account their mobile priorities and have chats with George about them. Even though I dispise the mentality behind mobile games (the idea that somehow these people are stupid and incapable of playing a normal game and thus need to be treated with kiddy gloves), I alter my suggestions to include that mentality. And what happens in return? We get ignored because "we're not the developer/designer, we're just some ignorant PC gamer that doesn't see the larger picture" Well frankly I CAN see the larger picture, and the larger picture says that Godus has no longevity in it. There's no substance. And thats a problem I've been seeing for over a year now. Oh but iOS ratings show that over 20.000 people gave it a 5 star rating, they LIKE it! ...no...they...don't...They downloaded the game for free, they have no inherent feelings about it unless the game pisses them off within those first 15 minutes before the rating... Those ratings mean that you've managed to get people to click a popup that you shoved in their faces while they probably were in the middle if the excessively lengthy tutorial. I'm willing to bet that if they altered those ratings to either provide feedback backing up the rating (nobody would do it cause it'd take too long) or take the rating at a later point in the game to measure for retention and longevity (fewer people would get there and the ones that did would no longer rate 4~5 stars). The ratings would be massively different measured in those methods. But they wouldn't do that would they? Thats because the rating system on iOS games is measured against games that take 5~15 minutes to play. If you've played Candy Crush for 15 minutes then you've completed a couple of levels. You have gone over the entirety of the games concept. If you've played Flappy Bird for 15 minutes you've dealt with all the game as to offer. You know what you're rating... Godus isn't like that, because even after 4 days of playing and completing ALL the content available I still don't know what the game ultimately will have to offer. I know what it has to offer for now (which is to say, expand, expand, expand, expand for no reason) - but thats it. Yet in their defense they claim that such a rating system is fair - because it is what all the other kids are doing. hardly - There's no way what you propose is going to work. Because Peter is already convinced that his method is flawless... According to him there's nothing wrong with the game and his methods, he sees no reason to take advice or suggestions. And unless you can find a way to get the entirety of the mobile crowd to alter their rating votes and playstyle to match our desires. There's no way that thats going to change. The only thing we can do right now is hope that the scraps that go our way (they still are more than happy to use us for testing purposes apparently...) are an improvement. And that the iOS interest in Godus doesn't drop too rapidly so 22cans retains some form of funding. Which frankly I'm not sure if that'd be a good thing at this point in time. Since I believe Peter needs to be pulled out of that mythical world of his and planted feet first in reality. Peter doesn't even listen to his own staff... The people he hired to tend to specific parts of his game. What makes you think he'll listen to us now? When he hasn't for nearing on 2 years. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 21, 2014 12:48:52 GMT
I don't recall a single post of myself or Ba'al's that said anything about not spooking the DEVS. Have you read half my recent posts? I cannot stand the game right now and have said so in much detail. The only thing I will not apologize for is removing the quotes for in that one thread that George requested.
If you want to "spook the DEVS" feel free. Say what you want, positive or negative, we have never said otherwise. We do ask that threads that are positive remain so and to fair negative threads should remain so too.
This place is all about total freedom to say what you want as a poster. My removing George's words were giving him that exact right. I apologize if I have appeared to have been bias in anyway. I do try to remain completely impartial at all times. I will admit that I personally like George and several other DEVS as people. I do appreciate them talking to us and still in the end I am quite unhappy with the denture cream I have been brushing my teeth with lately.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 21, 2014 13:33:08 GMT
You're not wrong about the history earl but what if for the sake of argument we set up a thread to discuss a particular aspect of GODUS and 22Cans agreed to have a real back and forth conversation in that thread, would you agree to let go of the history and focus on the discussion in that particular thread? I'm not suggesting you pretend you like the game just that we don't dredge the past in specific threads where there is a real dialogue going. Take a look at the Recommendations thread stickied at the top of this forum. That's what'll happen. The people serious about changing the game will discuss the subject until it becomes clear that nothing will happen and it'll slowly degenerate. The problem isn't a negative community but that 22Cans just doesn't seem to take us seriously. The feeling that nothing we say matters is just as strong as it was in March, regardless of the number of CM accounts posting to forums. I don't see it changing and have no reason to believe it suddenly will just because WE promise not to be too critical when they post. It's really sad that after all the silence, broken promises, and insults in the media, it's the community that's coming off as the bad guys rather than 22Cans in all of this. Until they WANT to talk to us and value our opinions, all of our diplomacy and tiptoeing is going to be a big waste of time. Most of the long-time posters started off as strong 22Cans supporters and didn't change their ways because they woke up one day and just wanted to hate someone. When THEY want to communicate, we'll be here, but there's a justifiable amount of negativity for it taking so long that will only get worse as time progressed. This sort of discussion happened back in March when Matthew showed up. It resurfaced when George came on board. Heck, every time a new person showed up, they've been given the "we have bad history with this project, our hostility isn't directed at you" spiel. If a developer WANTED to engage us, it'd happen and as long as we felt it was more than the long string of empty platitudes we'd defend him/her. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 21, 2014 13:41:15 GMT
I have just ran out of things to bitch about for now. I hate the stickers, I hate the belief collection, I hate the cards, I hate the chests, I hate the fact that sculpting is now harder, I hate the Astari as they stand today, I hate the happiness fountain, I hate the Voyages......I think you get the point.
I have made many many many suggestions since day bloody one and now, well, what else can I say? The game sucks right now.
I hate the interview PM just gave, the man needs to have muzzle put on him on public, he is talking himself into the industry's pit of doom. I feel bad for George and Matthew when he does speak. This is not even anger speaking now, just as I see it. The state of affairs today, is sad.
I hope and pray it will change at some point, but I won't be holding my breathe.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 25, 2014 18:46:50 GMT
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Post by hardly on Aug 25, 2014 19:22:35 GMT
I'm really surprised that there hasn't been a reaching out from 22cans as a build up to the PC sprint. In fact the most significant communication post release is peter bagging the community and blaming us for the bad reception the settlement update got.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 25, 2014 19:24:14 GMT
I have just ran out of things to bitch about for now. I hate the stickers, I hate the belief collection, I hate the cards, I hate the chests, I hate the fact that sculpting is now harder, I hate the Astari as they stand today, I hate the happiness fountain, I hate the Voyages......I think you get the point. I have made many many many suggestions since day bloody one and now, well, what else can I say? The game sucks right now. I hate the interview PM just gave, the man needs to have muzzle put on him on public, he is talking himself into the industry's pit of doom. I feel bad for George and Matthew when he does speak. This is not even anger speaking now, just as I see it. The state of affairs today, is sad. I hope and pray it will change at some point, but I won't be holding my breathe. I've been saying since March that PM shouldn't ever speak in public. He destroys any credibility 22Cans has, undercuts everything the CMs say, and repeats the same excuses for failure every single time. His all-encompassing excuse is to make every bit of criticism a personal attack. Whether he's using his reputation or calling his backers bullies, he's making everything personal and then playing for sympathy from the media. It's gotten to the point where I'm just about through with being nice whenever his name is mentioned. He could find another employee to be spokesman. Instead, he chooses to place himself in the line of fire and paints a neon bullseye on his chest. He does just about everything short of pulling the trigger himself. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 25, 2014 19:43:27 GMT
He does just about everything short of pulling the trigger himself. This last point could be argued. |
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Post by muumipeikko on Aug 26, 2014 13:03:48 GMT
I have just ran out of things to bitch about for now. I hate the stickers, I hate the belief collection, I hate the cards, I hate the chests, I hate the fact that sculpting is now harder, I hate the Astari as they stand today, I hate the happiness fountain, I hate the Voyages......I think you get the point. I have made many many many suggestions since day bloody one and now, well, what else can I say? The game sucks right now. I hate the interview PM just gave, the man needs to have muzzle put on him on public, he is talking himself into the industry's pit of doom. I feel bad for George and Matthew when he does speak. This is not even anger speaking now, just as I see it. The state of affairs today, is sad. I hope and pray it will change at some point, but I won't be holding my breathe. I've been saying since March that PM shouldn't ever speak in public. He destroys any credibility 22Cans has, undercuts everything the CMs say, and repeats the same excuses for failure every single time. His all-encompassing excuse is to make every bit of criticism a personal attack. Whether he's using his reputation or calling his backers bullies, he's making everything personal and then playing for sympathy from the media. It's gotten to the point where I'm just about through with being nice whenever his name is mentioned. He could find another employee to be spokesman. Instead, he chooses to place himself in the line of fire and paints a neon bullseye on his chest. He does just about everything short of pulling the trigger himself. I totally agree but look here is the problem and it's a biggie, 22Can's is nothing without Peter. The problem with mass media is their needs to be a story and 22 guys in Guildford making a game isn't a story, I'm guessing their are probably 100's of similar studios across the country who don't get a mention as it's just not news worthy. Thus the story with 22Can's always has to be "Peter M, Gaming legend... makes Godus".
As for bullying, I think Peter has to tell himself that as otherwise he would have to admit the truth and that's Godus is just another generic F2P game which far from breaking the mould has conformed to it in everyway he possibly could have. One thing I have learnt from 20 years in finance is the more someone talks up their idea in a pitch, the poorer the idea, good idea's sell themselves and the one thing Peter has never been able to do is say in any of his interviews is "Hay, look, don't listen to me, just play the game for an hour and you will see"
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Post by Danjal on Aug 26, 2014 13:25:21 GMT
Godus doesn't need a story, nor does it need a big media stink.
21 guys (minus Peter) in Guildford making a game isn't a story - its an indie studio making a video game...
Which (based on some of the idea's I've heard from the other 22cans staff) probably would be a lot better game than it is right now with Peter in charge.
As for the last bit - yes, good ideas, good concepts and good games sell themselves.
Mojang never needed to go out of its way to get Minecraft promoted, countless other SEA and kickstarter titles function the same way.
Because at the end of the day there are tons of people that are longing for these games.
The primary reason most of these people are hesitant and not everyone jumps into the crowdfunding wagon is because of all the Peter Molyneux' out there that think they are god and have no restrictions on their actions. And because of the other inexperienced developers that think they can just shake out half a game and become multi-billionairs while forgetting about tiny details such as taxes and the various other expenses.
22cans/Godus doesn't *need* to be a big story. They do not have to create a game to rival the greatest. They just have to create a game thats fun to play.
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Post by muumipeikko on Aug 26, 2014 13:53:10 GMT
Godus doesn't need a story, nor does it need a big media stink. 21 guys (minus Peter) in Guildford making a game isn't a story - its an indie studio making a video game... Which (based on some of the idea's I've heard from the other 22cans staff) probably would be a lot better game than it is right now with Peter in charge. As for the last bit - yes, good ideas, good concepts and good games sell themselves. Mojang never needed to go out of its way to get Minecraft promoted, countless other SEA and kickstarter titles function the same way. Because at the end of the day there are tons of people that are longing for these games. The primary reason most of these people are hesitant and not everyone jumps into the crowdfunding wagon is because of all the Peter Molyneux' out there that think they are god and have no restrictions on their actions. And because of the other inexperienced developers that think they can just shake out half a game and become multi-billionairs while forgetting about tiny details such as taxes and the various other expenses. 22cans/Godus doesn't *need* to be a big story. They do not have to create a game to rival the greatest. They just have to create a game thats fun to play. I agree, BUT they want to be a big story, they want to be the 22 guys who Just IPO'ed their start-up and now their car park is a see of red Ferraris... (I don't blame them for this.) PM probably need this more than most as lets face it, his highlights have largely come at the beginning of his career, it's been all downhill after that. Sadly we live in a world where a good game and a profitable game are not necessary the same thing and PM number one design aim has been to make a profitable game.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 26, 2014 13:57:22 GMT
Sadly we live in a world where a good game and a profitable game are not necessary the same thing...
And this is why I hate the direction that the world has taken in recent years. (Well not specifically just this, but the reasoning that cause this particular course of events aswell...) |
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 26, 2014 15:58:48 GMT
'Recent years' is kind of a stretch. Profit taking precedence over subjective preference has been a thing probably since Homo habilis started collecting seashells and shiny rocks.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 26, 2014 16:01:56 GMT
Sadly we live in a world where a good game and a profitable game are not necessary the same thing...
And this is why I hate the direction that the world has taken in recent years. (Well not specifically just this, but the reasoning that cause this particular course of events aswell...) I'm right there with you on this. Ultimate greed does not end well for anyone in the long run. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 26, 2014 16:22:41 GMT
'Recent years' is kind of a stretch. Profit taking precedence over subjective preference has been a thing probably since Homo habilis started collecting seashells and shiny rocks. So you are denying that consumerism has had an effect on our economy? That with corporations creating an effective monopoly in their little corner of the market, making it impossible for smaller individuals to ply the same trade, they've effectively come to control entire swaths of the economy. You are also denying that products these days are no longer build to last, but instead are created to last just about till the warrenty ends. Only to break and force you to buy new ones. Its rather silly when you realize that products made 50 or more years ago still work today. Yet products made 5~10 years ago do NOT. And this same attitude is applied to gaming. Used to be there were many developers that created games because they liked games, they wanted to create something that they enjoyed making and enjoyed playing. More and more products aren't being made to be enjoyed. They are made to get people to hand over their wallets. Products have as little content as possible for an as high a price tag as possible, with added DLC and expansions. Only to force a sequel down your throat one or two years later. Consumerism is not the same as a healthy and competative economy... Corporations claim a free market only to turn around and patent everything they can get their hands on just so others can't make money off of it. |
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 26, 2014 16:35:32 GMT
'Recent years' is kind of a stretch. Profit taking precedence over subjective preference has been a thing probably since Homo habilis started collecting seashells and shiny rocks. So you are denying that consumerism has had an effect on our economy? That with corporations creating an effective monopoly in their little corner of the market, making it impossible for smaller individuals to ply the same trade, they've effectively come to control entire swaths of the economy. You are also denying that products these days are no longer build to last, but instead are created to last just about till the warrenty ends. Only to break and force you to buy new ones. Its rather silly when you realize that products made 50 or more years ago still work today. Yet products made 5~10 years ago do NOT. And this same attitude is applied to gaming. Used to be there were many developers that created games because they liked games, they wanted to create something that they enjoyed making and enjoyed playing. More and more products aren't being made to be enjoyed. They are made to get people to hand over their wallets. Products have as little content as possible for an as high a price tag as possible, with added DLC and expansions. Only to force a sequel down your throat one or two years later. Consumerism is not the same as a healthy and competative economy... Corporations claim a free market only to turn around and patent everything they can get their hands on just so others can't make money off of it. No. Not only am I not denying any of those things, there's no rational way you can gleam I was implying as much from what I wrote. So let me say it another way - there is nothing new under the sun. Also, let me add, 50 years ago wasn't some egalitarian wonderland where products were 'built to last' in lieu of profits. The economies of 50 years ago may seem more equal on the surface with better products to you, but really, that's an illusion that was built on the backs of impoverished minorities and vastly unequal wages for women, among other things. Again, nothing new under the sun. Also, we're just talking about video games, here. The reality is, the complaints in this regards are similar to old people talking about how music was so much better when they were young - they're conveniently forgetting that a ton of crap music was produced in their heyday and forgotten about. We live in a time now where more games are produced per year than ever before. For all the flotsam, there's great games in that ocean, as well. For all the Goduses and Candy Crushes and Farmvilles, there's also Kerbal Space Programs and Witchers and whatnot. There's plenty of consumer choice. Just because we may think that most of what consumers happen to be choosing is garbage, doesn't make us right or our opinions objective. Just like with music. 50 years from now, I can sit down with my grandkids and tell them all about how when I was young, there were way better games made by people who really cared, but most likely, I'm going to be entirely full of crap. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 26, 2014 16:56:31 GMT
So you are denying that consumerism has had an effect on our economy? That with corporations creating an effective monopoly in their little corner of the market, making it impossible for smaller individuals to ply the same trade, they've effectively come to control entire swaths of the economy. You are also denying that products these days are no longer build to last, but instead are created to last just about till the warrenty ends. Only to break and force you to buy new ones. Its rather silly when you realize that products made 50 or more years ago still work today. Yet products made 5~10 years ago do NOT. And this same attitude is applied to gaming. Used to be there were many developers that created games because they liked games, they wanted to create something that they enjoyed making and enjoyed playing. More and more products aren't being made to be enjoyed. They are made to get people to hand over their wallets. Products have as little content as possible for an as high a price tag as possible, with added DLC and expansions. Only to force a sequel down your throat one or two years later. Consumerism is not the same as a healthy and competative economy... Corporations claim a free market only to turn around and patent everything they can get their hands on just so others can't make money off of it. No. Not only am I not denying any of those things, there's no rational way you can gleam I was implying as much from what I wrote. So let me say it another way - there is nothing new under the sun. Also, let me add, 50 years ago wasn't some egalitarian wonderland where products were 'built to last' in lieu of profits. The economies of 50 years ago may seem more equal on the surface with better products to you, but really, that's an illusion that was built on the backs of impoverished minorities and vastly unequal wages for women, among other things. Again, nothing new under the sun. Also, we're just talking about video games, here. The reality is, the complaints in this regards are similar to old people talking about how music was so much better when they were young - they're conveniently forgetting that a ton of crap music was produced in their heyday and forgotten about. We live in a time now where more games are produced per year than ever before. For all the flotsam, there's great games in that ocean, as well. For all the Goduses and Candy Crushes and Farmvilles, there's also Kerbal Space Programs and Witchers and whatnot. There's plenty of consumer choice. Just because we may think that most of what consumers happen to be choosing is garbage, doesn't make us right or our opinions objective. Just like with music. 50 years from now, I can sit down with my grandkids and tell them all about how when I was young, there were way better games made by people who really cared, but most likely, I'm going to be entirely full of crap. This is why old people that generalize the past are being silly and lazy. It's always consistently true that back in yesteryear some things were better, but much like in the present, many more things were absolute shit, which is the best lazy answer to reflecting on the past. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 26, 2014 17:35:47 GMT
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Every younger generation thinks they know better only to fail decade after decade and century after century if they don't try to respect and honour the past mistakes and/or actions of others.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 27, 2014 19:30:44 GMT
I really hope i'm not going to be one of those older fellas lamenting about the past and how much better it was or how dumb the world is now; unless it's actually true. I tend not to cling heavily to the past and generally accept that change as inevitable, but i also like nostalgia and historic stuff.
Now get off my lawn!
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Post by Danjal on Aug 27, 2014 19:45:00 GMT
Its not paranoia if they're actually out to get you. =P
Sure some people discount the whole "things used to be better" out of hand.
And yes, some things were better, while some things are better now.
Other things ARE actually being done worse now in the attempts to reach higher and higher profit margins.
That has nothing to do with nostalgia or "back in my day" - this is a simple fact that you can confirm by observation.
The concept that tools were made to last and now are made to break so you buy new ones isn't a 'flavour argument' - its a fact.
Things ARE being made to break faster, because a tool that lasts means you won't go out and buy a new one again.
Kinda like how micro-transactions are winning over single-fee games. Not because the one is inherently better or worse than the other.
But because the one is inherently more profitable than the other.
Why teach a man to fish and make him selfsustaining if you can instead provide him with wish and create a lifetime dependancy.
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