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Post by hardly on Aug 19, 2014 6:13:36 GMT
Having read peter's most recent interview that I think shows he takes little responsibility for the state of GODUS I think its time we talk about a different model of community engagement.
To date what has happened is that 22cans have done stuff, released it, received feedback, made changes (not necessarily reflecting that feedback), released it.....
Some important observations:
For the last nine months it appears mobile has had a veto power over almost all aspects of the PC version of GODUS to the point where there is really no PC version just a cheap port of GODUS mobile. This idea of a veto is important because it appears to be a major barrier to our feedback being heard. If a suggestion required a change to a mobile requirement it seems to be discounted regardless of its merit in the PC environment.
22cans never propose features on the various forums and discuss whether they are desired, the pros and cons, how they fit with a vision, how they can be improved. There is no real dialogue. Feature just appear in the game or are announced shortly before implementation. Even when we know something is coming like the settlement update the exact mechanics aren't discussed prior to launch.
Our feedback is received but never to my knowledge responded to in a meaningful way. Our major requests: remove stickers, timers and waiting have never been responded to and no justification for these features provided. 22cans have never discussed why not do things differently.
We have made countless creative suggestions for improvement and there is no evidence to show Peter has even considered these and he has never taken the time to explain why our suggestions are not worthy of inclusion.
22cans have provided no real future plan for GODUS (except for the relatively thin roadmap - no offense George but it was just a limited view of what was coming) and seem allergic to the idea of mapping how it will look. This means we can't debate the future of GODUS.
22cans have continued to double down on features and mechanics that the community have repeatedly asked be removed or amended. No explanation has been given.
Given these points it's not surprising that the community feels ignored and mistreated. Peter and the team have at times been subjected to abuse and the game is off the proverbial rails. Ignoring customer feedback has alienated a hardcore base of peters supporters (who previously were his fans) and ensured the game has a 94% dissatisfaction rate in told on steam. Based on his interview and previous videos Peter feels besieged but instead of looking inwards at his own behaviour he seems to blame the community for misinterpreting what he sees as a good game and optimal game development process.
So what next? I suggest we codevelop GODUS from here on out. To improve the relationship 22cans need to start discussing features with us before they are implemented. We will endeavour to provide constructive feedback and they will endeavour to listen and respond. Where feedback can not be acted on because it is inconsistent with the vision 22cans will actually explain why this. Not just say its 50% done so be patient or claim we don't understand the vision. If we don't understand your vision after 18 months of development you've done a shit job of explaining it. This requires two way conversations with actual substance. Not periodic announcements/videos and the collation of feedback that is never addressed.
To try this approach out I suggest we have dedicated threads that spare us all the history and the blame of GODUS. Yes GODUS is a poor game right now (although I've enjoyed it somewhat post this update) and yes 22Cans have in my opinion wronged the backers and EA buyers but we need to have some discussions where we don't beat 22Cans around the head with these facts. If we could create some forums or some threads that are constructive only perhaps an increasing number of 22Cans people will visit the forums and engage with us. Note asking for gems or timers to be removed is constructive feedback as is saying why we don't like the game as it stands. Unconstructive feedback is ranting at 22Cans and telling them they are F2P scum.
There is however a quid pro quo that goes along with this. 22Cans need to actually engage with us. That means where there is an idea that has the weight of the community behind it they need to discuss it alongside us. They need to talk about its merits and where it potentially conflicts with their design view. An idea might be impractical or too early to include and they can explain that. We've already had Fabs and Feanix on here and it seems like they have lots to contribute. How about some more people come along and we'll do design together. 95% of what we talk about wont make it to the game but it will be fun and perhaps the 5% will make all the difference.
So how about it 22Cans if we create threads that are safe for you and avoid the blame game will you reciprocate and engage in a two way discussion? No more your feedback has been passed on to the design team and they'll consider it maybe. If you have an idea for PC you'll throw it out to the community for us to discuss first? I'm not asking for a community veto on design, that wouldn't work but things have gone feral, if you want to change the tone of the conversation you need to change the way you are working with us. Equally we need to change the way we work with you.
So what do you say? I believe this approach to working together will save you time, money, angst and bad press. How can you say no?
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Post by muumipeikko on Aug 19, 2014 9:26:42 GMT
This should have come with a warning "May pi$$ yourself laughing". The odds of winning the euromillions are about 74,000,000 : 1, I think it more likely that I scoop the jackpot on both Tuesday and Friday than this ever happening.
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Post by hardly on Aug 19, 2014 9:42:46 GMT
You may be right. I wanted to give them the chance to do the right thing. If they choose not to then they will have made their bed. Peter complained about bullying well now is his chance to break the cycle.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 19, 2014 13:27:43 GMT
A nice proposal, one made multiple times before and blatantly ignored.
I'd almost say Peter prefers the stick over the carrot... Either that or he's so oblivious of human interaction and the people around him, because he's stuck in his own little world with his own little patterns. (I'll leave it up to yourself to conclude what this says about him)
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Post by nikink on Aug 19, 2014 21:20:17 GMT
Sometimes I get the impression that Peter is quite the tyrant to the team.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 21:44:22 GMT
I wish this was a thing, but it seems Peter clearly feels "the community" ISN'T helpful, and is mostly just there to bully him, because after all "we just don't get it". Which makes me wonder, especially with all of these great comments and suggestions, where he gets that idea from.
Does Peter read the forums? If he does, does he comprehend the vast resource it has been? I mean.. Look at Tikigod (Steam Forums) for instance. He/She has been perennially supportive, critical at times, but awfully helpful to both sides of the conversation. And where has that gotten him/her? Nearly completely ignored.
I mean... come on.. the entire astari concept has been mentioned time and time again for over a year... And he comes out like it was some grand designer epiphany that was bequeathed to him and him alone in a beautiful vision by his dutiful game designer patron... it's a joke... a sad, sad joke.
Like I said Hardy, I wish your suggestion success, but Peter (especially in this latest interview) comes off like a tried and true idea-vampire, sucking people dry, throwing them under the bus, then taking the credit.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 19, 2014 21:48:26 GMT
Peter doesn't read the forums, Peter looks at the iOS appstore ratings. You know, the ratings given within the first 15 minutes of the game.
And he's thoroughly convinced that this is his confirmation that all this time he was on the right path...
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Lord Ba'al
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Posts: 6,260
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 19, 2014 22:12:26 GMT
To try this approach out I suggest we have dedicated threads that spare us all the history and the blame of GODUS. Yes GODUS is a poor game right now (although I've enjoyed it somewhat post this update) and yes 22Cans have in my opinion wronged the backers and EA buyers but we need to have some discussions where we don't beat 22Cans around the head with these facts. If we could create some forums or some threads that are constructive only perhaps an increasing number of 22Cans people will visit the forums and engage with us. Isn't this what we have here already? |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 19, 2014 22:14:23 GMT
To try this approach out I suggest we have dedicated threads that spare us all the history and the blame of GODUS. Yes GODUS is a poor game right now (although I've enjoyed it somewhat post this update) and yes 22Cans have in my opinion wronged the backers and EA buyers but we need to have some discussions where we don't beat 22Cans around the head with these facts. If we could create some forums or some threads that are constructive only perhaps an increasing number of 22Cans people will visit the forums and engage with us. Isn't this what we have here already? Anv various such threads have existed on the steam boards (they still exist but lie abandoned in the dusty vaults and archives) |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 19, 2014 23:17:40 GMT
Peter doesn't read the forums, Peter looks at the iOS appstore ratings. You know, the ratings given within the first 15 minutes of the game. And he's thoroughly convinced that this is his confirmation that all this time he was on the right path... Don't forget the analytics. He loves those numbers! Sometimes I think he has more fun with a calculator than a game, but then I remember how simple the game is and I'm reminded that's impossible. True number lovers make ridiculously bloated games that have you making stupid spreadsheets to optimize your wor...Er, play. |
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Post by hardly on Aug 19, 2014 23:18:43 GMT
To try this approach out I suggest we have dedicated threads that spare us all the history and the blame of GODUS. Yes GODUS is a poor game right now (although I've enjoyed it somewhat post this update) and yes 22Cans have in my opinion wronged the backers and EA buyers but we need to have some discussions where we don't beat 22Cans around the head with these facts. If we could create some forums or some threads that are constructive only perhaps an increasing number of 22Cans people will visit the forums and engage with us. Isn't this what we have here already? I think these boards on the whole are constructive but I personally think that at times there is too much feces throwing to make it safe for low level staff. I'm thinking in particular about some of the conversations with fabs/feanix. Peter feels bullied and if we want to reset the relationship we have to address that feeling of them being besieged. You can't ignore history but you can put it aside for certain discussions and that is what I'm asking for if 22cans do their part. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 19, 2014 23:21:19 GMT
There is only one circumstance in which that could even remotely happen.
And that is if everyone kneels in front of Peter and chants "You were right, mobile is good, you were right, Godus is delicious, you were right, Godus for life."
And then bow down to every decision he makes.
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Post by hardly on Aug 19, 2014 23:52:37 GMT
Part of compromise is both parties give a bit. I'm suggesting in certain discussions we keep the feedback constructive and moderate more heavily to keep it so. In exchange 22cans would engage more actively with the community as I discussed above.
I think your right danjal in that they won't engage but let's agree to do our part if they come to the proverbial party. If they don't then we can keep bagging them out but personally I don't find rage posts that satisfying. I do however find threads like the quotes out of context and our les mis rendition hilarious.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 23:57:17 GMT
Part of compromise is both parties give a bit. I'm suggesting in certain discussions we keep the feedback constructive and moderate more heavily to keep it so. In exchange 22cans would engage more actively with the community as I discussed above. I think your right danjal in that they won't engage but let's agree to do our part if they come to the proverbial party. If they don't then we can keep bagging them out but personally I don't find rage posts that satisfying. I do however find threads like the quotes out of context and our les mis rendition hilarious. Couldn't one argue this type of sterilised/synthesised environment already exists on the official 22cans forums? |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 20, 2014 0:04:25 GMT
I'd love to give it a try - assuming I could get somewhat of a guarantee that Peter (and whoever else is in charge of making decisions at the cans) is actually going to seriously listen.
Rather than discount us, telling us we're wrong and we're a minority and then continue to dance victory circles around the iTunes/Appstore 5-star ranking statistics.
As the members who've been around during the earlier steam board periods can account for, I can be quite a reasonable person.
I just have a habit of getting spiteful when I'm being treated like garbage... (I don't hold grudges, I get even... with interest.)
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 20, 2014 0:09:42 GMT
Part of compromise is both parties give a bit. I'm suggesting in certain discussions we keep the feedback constructive and moderate more heavily to keep it so. In exchange 22cans would engage more actively with the community as I discussed above. I think your right danjal in that they won't engage but let's agree to do our part if they come to the proverbial party. If they don't then we can keep bagging them out but personally I don't find rage posts that satisfying. I do however find threads like the quotes out of context and our les mis rendition hilarious. I think this thread is a decent example of how it's best approached, personally. |
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Post by hardly on Aug 20, 2014 0:59:23 GMT
I remember those days danjal.
I think if we were punting up suggestions and 22cans were punting up suggestions and we were collectively discussing the merits of those suggestions people would find it easier to be positive and constructive.
I'm also doubtful 22cans can work in this model but I want to give them a chance post the latest update to try.
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Post by banned on Aug 20, 2014 2:27:37 GMT
Sometimes I get the impression that Peter is quite the tyrant to the team. Nah Peter is the hardly there. He is shunted off for marketing appearances. If you want the puppet master De'Sade check his MBA partner and DeNA. They are calling the shots. Peter appears to have acquiesced to being front man and scapegoat. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 21, 2014 8:01:56 GMT
I remember those days danjal. I think if we were punting up suggestions and 22cans were punting up suggestions and we were collectively discussing the merits of those suggestions people would find it easier to be positive and constructive. I'm also doubtful 22cans can work in this model but I want to give them a chance post the latest update to try. Every time there's a slight scrap of information on Steam, people act like the wait's been vindicated and things will suddenly be different. Every time, a few of us actually look at the situation and give it a serious critique. Every single time, us critics are called trolls, problem posters, or threatened with bans for being off-topic or against policy in some way. On here, it's a bit better but there's a constant barrage of "don't spook the developers" that's wearing thin. The community spent months trying to remain constructive with a brick wall for a conversation partner. We begged for interaction and got a number of empty promises, a wildly vague and inaccurate roadmap, and a number of contradictory videos as a response. At this point, I'm starting to get sick of the eggshell walking attitude every time someone calls bs when a developer shows up to post something useless on any public forum. "He's finally peeked his head out of his hole, we don't want to scare him back in." Those constructive posting days would return if they actually engaged in meaningful discussions of the development. The problem is that they haven't, they won't, and there's nothing that we can do to change that. A lot of the negativity comes from the fact that most of what's said is empty. It's vague, it's contrary to past statements, or it deflects meaningful discussion for the foreseeable future. On top of that, nothing we've said has been acted on since forums were opened up. At best, it's been ignored, misconstrued, or outright reshaped to fit the narrative the company is trying to say at any given time. I try to be fair, but after months of being yanked around, I'm sick of playing the head games. If a developer wants to talk to us, he/she is going to have to have a thick skin and bring something more meaningful than "we'll look into that during the pc focus" or "something incredible is in the works but I can't say what it is". If they start up a meaningful conversation (or just respond with meaningful input), we'll be too busy discussing things to put effort into continue being negative. |
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Post by hardly on Aug 21, 2014 8:31:33 GMT
You're not wrong about the history earl but what if for the sake of argument we set up a thread to discuss a particular aspect of GODUS and 22Cans agreed to have a real back and forth conversation in that thread, would you agree to let go of the history and focus on the discussion in that particular thread? I'm not suggesting you pretend you like the game just that we don't dredge the past in specific threads where there is a real dialogue going.
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