Aron
Master
Posts: 125 
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198023768234/
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Post by Aron on Aug 23, 2014 11:05:18 GMT
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Post by Danjal on Aug 23, 2014 15:51:44 GMT
I love this chicken or the egg argument.
"successful games are rare, so you have to make it F2P" "F2P games are crap, because they do not get the reliable income paid games have and need to enforce monetization"
So.... You make a game crap, you then claim you can't sell it normally because it wouldn't be profitable enough.
You then resort to F2P therefor you *NEED* to put in abusive monetization (even though there are methods that are profitable and not abusive) and then you say its all because you couldn't make a profit off of a normal single-fee game.
Well I'm sorry, but if you made a GOOD game in the first place, people would be willing to pay for it (the kickstarter is proof of that...)
So any argument that paid games are rare is complete BS.
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Post by hardly on Aug 23, 2014 20:38:31 GMT
Peter has never explained why he "had" to make mobile GODUS in the first place. If it was unviable he should have just done a cheap port, kinds like he's done with PC.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 23, 2014 20:46:27 GMT
I think the idea of argument is that a proper PC title wouldn't have been viable - which begs the question why they initiated funding through there. I suspect that either the SEA sales didn't pan out as they had hoped, someone at DeNA or an equivalent company was very convincing with numbers (look, you're trying to sell to an audience of X number of people, if you go mobile there are X+Y number of people, thats much more money to make!!!) or Peter did really believe he could do what nobody else could. Which is to create core gamer level games for a primarily casual audience. I think that feanix post about his GF says it all - people who play like that have vastly different interests. So how they'd ever imagined to bridge that gap? Who knows. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 23, 2014 21:09:20 GMT
I think the idea of argument is that a proper PC title wouldn't have been viable - which begs the question why they initiated funding through there.I suspect that either the SEA sales didn't pan out as they had hoped, someone at DeNA or an equivalent company was very convincing with numbers (look, you're trying to sell to an audience of X number of people, if you go mobile there are X+Y number of people, thats much more money to make!!!) or Peter did really believe he could do what nobody else could. Which is to create core gamer level games for a primarily casual audience. I think that feanix post about his GF says it all - people who play like that have vastly different interests. So how they'd ever imagined to bridge that gap? Who knows. Marketing/exposure. One of the devs behind Planet Explorers (great looking game, by the way, highly recommend it) had this to say follow the Yogscast Kickstarter debacle: We're pretty close to a0.83, will probably have it in the Steam beta mode on Monday. I'll have a change list ready by then as well. Mostly stuff like continents and rivers... Now for a rant. As some of you are aware, Yogventures just went belly up, and then everyone wants to weigh in on how Kickstarter is bad or not. From my perspective, KS is a very good tool in the right hands, but sometimes, you really have to take a chance on things you find endearing. Take us for example, we're also a nobody. Sure, we made games before, and some of our team members hail from some big companies (THQ, SNK, Shanda, etc.), but still we're a nobody. If we failed at our Kickstarter, we probably would still be able to finish the game, but it would have been much harder for us to get the funds we needed (from institutional investors). The $135,000 that we got was about 4 months worth of salary at the time, it was something, but in the grand scheme of things, we went on KS for the exposure, not the funds. The moment we got exposure, investors pockets opened up more and we could make a bigger game. But that was always the plan, there was no way KS could have funded PE exclusively. People need to realize when kickstarting projects that games cost a ton of money to make, especially ones that promise a lot. Assets and features don't just grow on trees, they need people to make them, and time as well. It took us 6 months to get smooth voxels to 1km and generating in realtime on opencl at speeds most people would be satisfied with. It took us 2 years to get AI to where it is today, and it still sucks (and the programmer isn't stupid). It took another programmer a year to create the Creation system with the current contents. We're having 3 programmers spending another half year to make the story/world editor. See how that all adds up? We promised a lot too, but we had ~20 devs during KS and 35 now, I was pretty sure we could finish up the game. So, I guess I'm really just trying to assure everyone that PE's going pretty great and won't be going the same route as Yogventures...ever. We've been past 100,000 units on Steam for a bit now, so even our institutional investors are pretty satisfied and we can just focus on making a game that we can be proud of. For our KS backers, we'll be starting to make all the physical rewards late this year, yes it's about a year later than planned, but, game development...it is what it is, like a box of chocolate, never know what you gonna get. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 23, 2014 21:19:29 GMT
All I have to counter to that is "Star Citizen" - yes, a 1 month kickstarter campaign isn't likely to fund your entire game - especially if you wanna go big.
Yes, the exposure helps a ton.
But ultimately, if you do it right, you don't have to sell out.
You don't have to alter your game for profits. And thats what Peter seems to have done.
What the guy you link says is that he simply extended his existing plan into the funding mechanism, it is in no way compareable to what 22cans did by completely changing the scope of their game. Pretty much everyone can see that Godus does not represent what was promised in the original concept except in the most technical of details. (Which probably is only to avoid legal consequences)
So yes, they'd have needed additional funding - but thats not the problem nor my question.
My question was why resort to Kickstarter when your plan is to create a game that otherwise would NEVER have been funded by people in a million years?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 22:47:57 GMT
I wonder if we could convince another "legend of the industry" to try and crowdfund a F2P game... just for the lulz.
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Post by hardly on Aug 24, 2014 4:22:58 GMT
If steam early access is a failure it is only because Peter M tried to sell a turd on it. There are heaps of successful indie games on Steam. The problem is you have to develop something innovative and compelling, something to date 22Cans have not been able to do.
The problem is 22Cans didn't even give SEA a chance. They developed a shallow game that was weakened by a secret mobile agenda. Once it was on SEA they reinforced the mobile nature of the game by undertaking a long mobile sprint.
We'll never know what a PC only version of GODUS would have looked like but I guarantee that if it was a game people enjoyed playing it would have done well.
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Post by hardly on Aug 24, 2014 4:25:41 GMT
I could have got at least 2 of my mates to buy it with my recommendation (they asked I said don't buy it) but I didn't give it because the game doesn't deserve it. If everybody who owns GODUS got two friends to buy it Im sure it would have done a lot better financially.
What Peter/22Cans don't understand is that PC is based on word of mouth and not hype. The games that have done well are the ones that have won players over. Clearly that wont work for a game that has 94% negative reviews.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 24, 2014 11:30:08 GMT
I wonder if we could convince another "legend of the industry" to try and crowdfund a F2P game... just for the lulz. Sid Meier? |
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stuhacking
Master
Posts: 170
Pledge level: Partner
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Post by stuhacking on Aug 26, 2014 11:59:46 GMT
I wonder if we could convince another "legend of the industry" to try and crowdfund a F2P game... just for the lulz. Sid Meier? Civili$ation 6 (hours remaining) |
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Post by muumipeikko on Aug 26, 2014 12:46:21 GMT
Interesting, I don't disagree with him that it's very difficult to make a commercial success out of a paid for game especially on the mobile but hang on, that's why I kickstarted it rather than sat on my hands and waited for him to release it. The whole point of the KS was it was suppose to be enough money for him to build Godus and see if it was a commercial success with me and the rest of you taking the risk no one else wanted to.
Peter kind of reminds me of Alex Salmond in many ways, despite the fact he has been caught lying and making up crap time and time again he just constantly skirts the difficult questions and carries on as if everyone else is an idiot. Reality is Godus will ultimately fail not because of the pricing model but because their isn't anything behind the amazing graphics to keep anyone interested. It's a very boring application, you flatted land to build houses to get belief to flatten more land to build more houses... The card system doesn't work as when you reach a certain level you need ~50 stickers/card and their just aren't enough so you give up on that.
Then their is the Azuri tribe which Peter claims is a big part of the game... Erm no they are not, they are a total unbalanced waist of time designed purely to force people to constantly log in. If you swamp their entire area they all die but yet still every festival despite the fact no one is left they have a massive spike in happiness and who designed the "The azuri people are cruelly mocking your people" A 11 year old? Seriously...
I actually feel sorry for the developers as they are clearly a talented bunch and it must be gutting to start a dream job with a gaming legend and then at some point to realise that he's out of ideas and basically the game is being designed by committee with a F2P published taking 99% of the seats... I'll stop their otherwise we will See Peter on Opra or similar crying saying how Muumipeikko is bullying him and it opens up the wounds from his childhood...
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Post by engarde on Aug 26, 2014 13:41:30 GMT
Muumipeikko, do you think then with your Salmond reference that PM has 3 plan-Bs then? Will they be shared across all platforms or one per? Apologies for anyone not aware of current UK politics, but to summarise Salmond was accused of having no plan B in a debate, so offered 3 up next time it was debated some weeks later.
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Post by muumipeikko on Aug 26, 2014 14:06:03 GMT
Muumipeikko, do you think then with your Salmond reference that PM has 3 plan-Bs then? Will they be shared across all platforms or one per? Apologies for anyone not aware of current UK politics, but to summarise Salmond was accused of having no plan B in a debate, so offered 3 up next time it was debated some weeks later. Having played the latest Godus for a few hours now and just uninstalled it I really hope he does have a plan-b's. As I actually think their is more chance of the BOE giving Scotland half the seats on the monetary policy committee that then is of Godus being a long term cash cow. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 26, 2014 20:29:21 GMT
I'll stop their otherwise we will See Peter on Opra or similar crying saying how Muumipeikko is bullying him and it opens up the wounds from his childhood...  |
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