Lord Ba'al
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Mar 14, 2014 21:04:23 GMT
Imagine you were trying to design a game that contained a simulation of people going about their lives. Let's say you start out with wandering nomads and you want to create a model that leads to the formation of settlements and beyond. There are various steps that would have to take place. How would you go about modeling that? What would be the natural progression from single wandering nomads to a society?
I think the first step might be for singular nomadic creatures to form a relationship with another singular nomadic creature, i.e. they find themselves a mate. I'm gonna skip past the phase where they impregnate eachother and run off and assume that they form lasting relationships. The relationships would lead to having children and thus families are born. But still we are talking about nomads here so now there are families wandering around. Where does evolution go from there?
Perhaps a family would decide to temporarily settle in a certain location because the circumstances are favourable there like an abundance of food. As seasons change they might find themselves forced to relocate. At this point they are still hunters and gatherers. At some point multiple families might join forces to increase their chances of survival. These comraderies evolve into tribes of wandering nomads. Now how do they get to settling down?
I think the point at where it no longer is necessary to relocate comes with the invention of farming and herding. For a group of nomads to decide to settle somewhere would require the continuous presence of plenty of food and shelter from the elements and predators. So now there's a bunch of families living together herding animals and farming crops. How do they get to building houses?
I must have left out a lot of details and potential angles. I'd love to hear from you guys what mistakes I've made or oversights I've made. I'd love to see if you have a completely different perspective on this. Please feel free to add on ideas or rip mine to shreds.
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Post by morsealworth on Mar 15, 2014 8:36:59 GMT
Wouldn7t it be faster to look at primated? We already been here and done that. First come not families, but tribes. Look at schimpanzee (okay, you may look a bonobo as well. But not at that aspect!), they don't have any lasting relationships. They flock together because there are lots of predators in woods.
Next, we have women playing a "daughter role", changing model of parent-child to man-woman so they would be protected by men more often. That makes only paedophiles to survive. At the same time, they supress the effect of female hormones on sexual excitement and use male hormones instead (getting a combination of the two where cyclic one would be much less noticeable without research) to hide their ovulation so men would protect them from other men (rape is just the other word for adultery and theft) and mate with them all the time. This creates families, They don't start from families to tribes, it's the other way round.
Next we have incest to change relation between siblings to modified version of male-female relationship that was a modification of parent-child relationship. Norm here would be a "man is parent", but in sibling relationship the norm would be "older sibling is the parent", after two mixing up we have so many "motherly women" as one of ideals of beauty. Next we get homosexuality mixing up with hierarchy instincts and sibling relationship to give birth to friendship.
Friendship creates the instinct of gratitude, whch comes from Latin word "grata" and means "will to grant something in return". And gratitude in its raw form is not cheap moral that uses words in vain; It makes people to give to their benefactors goods they themselves make. Such instinct creates trade.
Wanna know what goes next?
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Mar 15, 2014 10:33:57 GMT
Yeah by all means go on. I'm fascinated.
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Post by Qetesh on Mar 15, 2014 10:34:33 GMT
Red Tube? LOL..............and don't forget the sparkles.
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Post by morsealworth on Mar 15, 2014 11:27:19 GMT
Next would be synergy of friendship and language: tactics. And combination of tactics and trade means war. For the first time attacks on nearby trives aren&t just to rob and get new women. It becomes enslavement of an other tribe by weaponry and power. By the way,first wars don&t end in this. First wars end in all other branches of humanity getting eaten by the victors. But when we get first slaves, we get first primitive sovereignty. And where religions come, you may ask? It comes in the times of trade.
By the way, true religions happen, they are not created. That's the main erason I dislike Christianity.
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jmoz
Wannabe
Posts: 22
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Post by jmoz on Mar 17, 2014 5:06:12 GMT
I think the point of settling down and moving away from their nomadic lifestyle comes with the boundary between when they move beyond sustenance and discover consistent sources of food. For example, foraging is one. They discover seasonally that fruits and veggies grow and are bountiful when they pass by some hunting route they may have taken and eventually acclimate to the sites where they forage. They've already discovered shelter from nature during their nomadic lifestyle because they either have to find natural shelters such as caves, or they make their own makeshift shelters such as teepees or some tentlike structure from the furs and whatnot. Eventually when they move past basic sustenance, they are able to devote more time towards other things. And thus you would have sort of discoveries of other sources of foods and how those foods come about. Farming would likely rise then. They would mostly first settle by rivers or streams, just sources of water. They'd make their portable shelters using more sturdy materials. They'd adjust to the local climate and seasonal shifts. There would likely still be hunting but much less emphasis on large game. Fishing would probably pick up soon enough. Plus being close to the water would attract other animals which they could hunt. Eventually full blown agriculture would bloom with increased knowledge. The increased knowledge would come by from having moved past basic sustenance.
As far as social structure, obviously full blown chaos cannot work. They likely have left over from their nomadic days a reverence for the strongest males and strongest hunters. They'd likely be at the top of the social order at first. But I think over time, as they adapt to thinking more, they might start valuing intelligence more and look to the elders. The elders would likely try to contain and mitigate social order through various means, and one of which would likely be stories of the past. So you can see how easily myths may arise and religion. I'm sure there are more subtleties like the whole patriarchy thing morsealworth is going on about. Think patriarchy would be a byproduct of the male dominance during nomadic times where strength was highly valued.
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Post by morsealworth on Mar 17, 2014 7:03:16 GMT
I think the point of settling down and moving away from their nomadic lifestyle comes with the boundary between when they move beyond sustenance and discover consistent sources of food. For example, foraging is one. They discover seasonally that fruits and veggies grow and are bountiful when they pass by some hunting route they may have taken and eventually acclimate to the sites where they forage. They've already discovered shelter from nature during their nomadic lifestyle because they either have to find natural shelters such as caves, or they make their own makeshift shelters such as teepees or some tentlike structure from the furs and whatnot. Eventually when they move past basic sustenance, they are able to devote more time towards other things. And thus you would have sort of discoveries of other sources of foods and how those foods come about. Farming would likely rise then. They would mostly first settle by rivers or streams, just sources of water. They'd make their portable shelters using more sturdy materials. They'd adjust to the local climate and seasonal shifts. There would likely still be hunting but much less emphasis on large game. Fishing would probably pick up soon enough. Plus being close to the water would attract other animals which they could hunt. Eventually full blown agriculture would bloom with increased knowledge. The increased knowledge would come by from having moved past basic sustenance. As far as social structure, obviously full blown chaos cannot work. They likely have left over from their nomadic days a reverence for the strongest males and strongest hunters. They'd likely be at the top of the social order at first. But I think over time, as they adapt to thinking more, they might start valuing intelligence more and look to the elders. The elders would likely try to contain and mitigate social order through various means, and one of which would likely be stories of the past. So you can see how easily myths may arise and religion. I'm sure there are more subtleties like the whole patriarchy thing morsealworth is going on about. Think patriarchy would be a byproduct of the male dominance during nomadic times where strength was highly valued. You don't know anthropology at all, do you? Rule of elders is much older than you think. For example, orangutan hierarchy is gerontocracy. Gerontocracy has nothing to do with knowledge, as well as any political system. And patriarchy is not "male dominance". It's simply a result of divded roles betwen sexes. Males are "outside", they are on the run, so they require abstract thinking to get back. Gatherers (female) prefer detailed memory instead so they can gather all they saw. And yes, that's the basic evolutionary reason men have abstract thinking as a dominanta and women think situationally. Also, you should remember that they were a lot of nomadic tribes who did both farming and herding on big scale so the main reason for nomadic lifestyle was decrease in yield of soil. Mongol Empire, for example, was such a nomadic state. Fishing, too, is older than both farming and herding, first done by primitive tools made of wooden sticks. There was chaos in social life. The only chaos was female behavior due to no hierarchy instinct and no inner ways to stop aggression, butt that was always compensated by male behavior. Example would be as how men and women see "power". Women mostly see power as warrant to be able to do pre-designated things. This position is very close to a position of a child looking at adults: they both see what adults/people in power are allowed to do and pay no attention to responsibility an adult faces (That's why feminism is a plague. Still, there are a lot of position where women would be less prone to corruption. If they have someone oversee them, that is). The only responsibility they have is responsibility before parent/superior (to be good or be punished). And when men think of power, they see authority over group of people consisting of warrant of action AND the responsibility that comes from it.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Mar 17, 2014 13:23:39 GMT
You seem to know a lot about this. I get the feeling from what I read that there is no clear path that leads from primitive primates to early settlements. So perhaps there are several paths that coexist and overlap eachother. If you were to make a bulletpoint list of every possible step that would/might take place in chronological order, what would that look like?
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Post by morsealworth on Mar 17, 2014 14:41:54 GMT
It would look like a spider's web between two sticks with added dead ends.
I might look like the milestones I described are parts of one path. It's not. Well, they are parts of one path, but I only try to picture the path that humanity walked, as this was the olny path that wasn't ended by being eaten by other species, mainly Homo S. sapiens (when we became numerous enough). And the order I chose is deduced by the requirements of each based on the basic principles of evolution.
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Casinha
Master
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Post by Casinha on Mar 18, 2014 10:14:16 GMT
The measurement of time would be an interesting step to add. Certain nomads often never thought of the future as much as the now and couldn't actually grasp the concept of taking the future into account. They would meander from one place to the next as dictated by the seasons. It's actually still a problem for doctors; When someone from a nomadic tribe requires extended treatment (for example a cream that needs to be applied twice a day for a week), a nomad will just apply the whole treatment in one go (surely you just apply a week's worth of cream at once, no?) as s/he can't figure out why you would do it any other way. So trying to map the concept of time would be interesting, I think.
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Post by morsealworth on Mar 18, 2014 11:50:32 GMT
The measurement of time would be an interesting step to add. Certain nomads often never thought of the future as much as the now and couldn't actually grasp the concept of taking the future into account. They would meander from one place to the next as dictated by the seasons. It's actually still a problem for doctors; When someone from a nomadic tribe requires extended treatment (for example a cream that needs to be applied twice a day for a week), a nomad will just apply the whole treatment in one go (surely you just apply a week's worth of cream at once, no?) as s/he can't figure out why you would do it any other way. So trying to map the concept of time would be interesting, I think. Nah, the measurement of time comes naturally as they get more time-consuming tasks. To be exact, time becomes available when agriculture comes to existence in its most primitive form. And you're right, there's a tribe in Polynesia that soesn't even understand the connection between sex and birth of children. P.S. I was wrong about the form of evolution. The true form of it you can see here, not depicted, but actually available to see.
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