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Post by hardly on Feb 16, 2015 22:16:37 GMT
what is the benefit from collectin These stuff? Peter's statements often confuse the narrative as a means to divert criticism, we refocuse and reframe the narrative to redirect back on his actions. You might consider the RPS interview to be a failure by Peter but it has generated a lot of sympathy for him and framed the narrative as "he missesstimated the time to complete certain features and the community is angry at him for it" which leads people to say so what? |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 16, 2015 22:17:18 GMT
So just for perspective, proof absolute that Peter is lying now? Claims that no multiplayer at this moment is the result of publisher server issues in November/December of 2014. Which makes no sense, since as is clearly linked above (and in plenty of the development videos from this timeframe), multiplayer/hubworld was absolutely coming first in April (as stated in the march videos), and then on the immediate horizon per the roadmap (it has it as definitely going to be launched prior to that summer). ... Somebody (I think possibly Earlparvisjam?) mentioned somewhere recently that Godus has been fascinating to watch as it teaches innumerable lessons in how not to do things. Multiplayer is a good example of that. The way 22Cans pitched the game, and the way PM has spoken about it in past interviews, multiplayer (hubworld, Jupiter-sized planet, god-of-gods etc.) is absolutely integral to PM's vision for Godus. This being the case, you'd think it would be sensible to design and build Godus around the technology that would support this functionality. Instead they focused on building an isolated single-player version without any regard for multiplayer whatsoever, then tried to figure out how to jam it into some kind of multiplayer framework later on. The point at which it became clear that multiplayer wouldn't be easily realised was probably the turning point for PM and that was when he began losing interest in the whole project. Yep, for a project billed primarily as an MMO, it boggles the mind that it's never had online functionality. For all the combat talk that has been made since Kickstarter, the answer for its absence has always been that it was coming in Hubworld. All the current combat development is just an attempt at figuring out how to fit the aggressive god powers into Homeworld. It's a bandage over a gaping wound of functionality. The purpose, design, and history of Homeworld all point out just how disjointed this project is. At most, Homeworld was billed as half the game. Our discussions from last spring were all about this and part of our frustrations about the development were how vague Hubworld was, though they kept saying it was nearly complete. None of the excuses made sense until the summer when it'd been shelved as less important than getting the iOS release out. We were just being lead down a primrose path. |
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Post by hardly on Feb 16, 2015 22:20:12 GMT
Hubworld was so integral to GODUS that peter said we shouldn't judge the game until we experienced it.
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tikigod
Master
Resistance is mean.
Posts: 115 
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Post by tikigod on Feb 16, 2015 22:24:24 GMT
So just for perspective, proof absolute that Peter is lying now? Claims that no multiplayer at this moment is the result of publisher server issues in November/December of 2014. Which makes no sense, since as is clearly linked above (and in plenty of the development videos from this timeframe), multiplayer/hubworld was absolutely coming first in April (as stated in the march videos), and then on the immediate horizon per the roadmap (it has it as definitely going to be launched prior to that summer). ... Somebody (I think possibly Earlparvisjam?) mentioned somewhere recently that Godus has been fascinating to watch as it teaches innumerable lessons in how not to do things. Multiplayer is a good example of that. The way 22Cans pitched the game, and the way PM has spoken about it in past interviews, multiplayer (hubworld, Jupiter-sized planet, god-of-gods etc.) is absolutely integral to PM's vision for Godus. This being the case, you'd think it would be sensible to design and build Godus around the technology that would support this functionality. Instead they focused on building an isolated single-player version without any regard for multiplayer whatsoever, then tried to figure out how to jam it into some kind of multiplayer framework later on. The point at which it became clear that multiplayer wouldn't be easily realised was probably the turning point for PM and that was when he began losing interest in the whole project. The weird thing is, fire up Google and go to search tools and set your date range between September 2013 and May 2014, and you'll see multiple Molyneux interviews where he talks about all the back end connection stuff going on. How some parts are already connected and just need a switch flipped, and other parts are mostly done and just need a bit of work. Things like there being many sliders already tied to the game that the God of Gods will soon have access to which will allow them to influence how the world behaves. How they're just finishing off connecting all the worlds together. How commandments will work and how the game is already designed to be able to roll out commandments that change core follower behaviour on the fly. In the original early access builds in September 2013 there was multiplayer matches, albeit rather buggy ones that I seem to recall were meant to integrate with Steam and that side of things didn't quite work. There's tons of claims of multiplayer and connectivity functionality all in place and working just not being utilised yet, some of the claims date back to even October 2013. It's only in the later half of 2014 was there talk of only "Just starting" to think about how to do multiplayer. Apparently between late-2013 and just before mid-2014 22Cans lost all their connectivity functionality down the back of the sofa even the stuff allegedly already integrated into the game, on a level that even DeNa pulling a server infrastructure change in November 2014 wouldn't account for. Example: www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-30-there-is-no-shop-super-clicking-f2p-and-godus-with-peter-molyneux |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 17, 2015 2:46:17 GMT
I really wish the media would do more in-depth research than just a cursory glance at the whole history. Spend a week or so interacting with the community, get into the trenches, dig through the bins of discarded discussion - especially those started by 22Cans themselves about features and suggestions - and really ingest the story. Only then will they really be able to weave the truth together and see the bigger issues at hand, unhindered by Molyneux lamenting and free from altered narrative. But, apparently that sort of nuanced journalism is dead. It's only in the later half of 2014 was there talk of only "Just starting" to think about how to do multiplayer. Apparently between late-2013 and just before mid-2014 22Cans lost all their connectivity functionality down the back of the sofa even the stuff allegedly already integrated into the game, on a level that even DeNa pulling a server infrastructure change in November 2014 wouldn't account for. Example: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-30-there-is-no-shop-super-clicking-f2p-and-godus-with-peter-molyneux This is what I was talking about in another thread; the websites now reporting on the story, kicked off by RPS, aren't even doing a thorough job of looking back at their own articles to find fallacies in Peter's statements. There's a big difference between making mistakes in estimations of time and money, and completely fabricating information in an attempt to twist the perception of the significance and nature of events after they have occurred. They're implementing Story Mode alright, and I'm not talking about the game. |
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Post by Spiderweb on Feb 17, 2015 6:42:00 GMT
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Post by earlparvisjam on Feb 17, 2015 9:22:02 GMT
I really wish the media would do more in-depth research than just a cursory glance at the whole history. Spend a week or so interacting with the community, get into the trenches, dig through the bins of discarded discussion - especially those started by 22Cans themselves about features and suggestions - and really ingest the story. Only then will they really be able to weave the truth together and see the bigger issues at hand, unhindered by Molyneux lamenting and free from altered narrative. But, apparently that sort of nuanced journalism is dead. It's only in the later half of 2014 was there talk of only "Just starting" to think about how to do multiplayer. Apparently between late-2013 and just before mid-2014 22Cans lost all their connectivity functionality down the back of the sofa even the stuff allegedly already integrated into the game, on a level that even DeNa pulling a server infrastructure change in November 2014 wouldn't account for. Example: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-30-there-is-no-shop-super-clicking-f2p-and-godus-with-peter-molyneux This is what I was talking about in another thread; the websites now reporting on the story, kicked off by RPS, aren't even doing a thorough job of looking back at their own articles to find fallacies in Peter's statements. There's a big difference between making mistakes in estimations of time and money, and completely fabricating information in an attempt to twist the perception of the significance and nature of events after they have occurred. They're implementing Story Mode alright, and I'm not talking about the game. Here's a great example of how half-hearted some of these articles are. This one is using the same stuff we've been discussing to claim PM's silence is due to death threats. The best part is that the author links a PocketGamer article from last August as him talking about death threats mentioned in the Guardian article. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 17, 2015 13:52:02 GMT
Hey, Gmr Leon, are you going to update this thread? We've provided a few more important links. Of course, there's a long way to go to fill in the gaps and thread the entirety of events together. |
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Feb 17, 2015 14:54:15 GMT
In the original early access builds in September 2013 there was multiplayer matches, albeit rather buggy ones that I seem to recall were meant to integrate with Steam and that side of things didn't quite work. There's tons of claims of multiplayer and connectivity functionality all in place and working just not being utilised yet, some of the claims date back to even October 2013. It's only in the later half of 2014 was there talk of only "Just starting" to think about how to do multiplayer. Apparently between late-2013 and just before mid-2014 22Cans lost all their connectivity functionality down the back of the sofa even the stuff allegedly already integrated into the game, on a level that even DeNa pulling a server infrastructure change in November 2014 wouldn't account for. The Steam network code was developed in july - october 2013 by myself and an intern. We saw the servers come to a standstill when we launched (well, actually about four days after we launched). The cause we only later found out was that the pirate copies started doing weird things that the servers didn't expect, and caused them to throw a hissy fit. This lead to a change to remote networking from the PC build. Yes, you really can blame pirates for your inability to play multiplayer. Given that we didn't have any experience of handling PC level piracy in our two person network team, the decision was made to dump our work as a good try, and hire in middleware to solve the problem now our target platform was mobile. The thought was that it would be impossible to release a mobile game without networking. That middleware has had its own problems, mostly down to the server code not being aware of how Godus works in any way, but it did let us release a version of the game where saves were in the cloud, and you could do IAP. Now, we're stuck with a network stack that doesn't handle MMO style gameplay, which is core for Hubworld. When we get the gameplay features we need to make hubworld, we're going to need a while to add in network support all over again. |
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tikigod
Master
Resistance is mean.
Posts: 115
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Post by tikigod on Feb 17, 2015 14:59:13 GMT
In the original early access builds in September 2013 there was multiplayer matches, albeit rather buggy ones that I seem to recall were meant to integrate with Steam and that side of things didn't quite work. There's tons of claims of multiplayer and connectivity functionality all in place and working just not being utilised yet, some of the claims date back to even October 2013. It's only in the later half of 2014 was there talk of only "Just starting" to think about how to do multiplayer. Apparently between late-2013 and just before mid-2014 22Cans lost all their connectivity functionality down the back of the sofa even the stuff allegedly already integrated into the game, on a level that even DeNa pulling a server infrastructure change in November 2014 wouldn't account for. The Steam network code was developed in july - october 2013 by myself and an intern. We saw the servers come to a standstill when we launched (well, actually about four days after we launched). The cause we only later found out was that the pirate copies started doing weird things that the servers didn't expect, and caused them to throw a hissy fit. This lead to a change to remote networking from the PC build. Yes, you really can blame pirates for your inability to play multiplayer. Given that we didn't have any experience of handling PC level piracy in our two person network team, the decision was made to dump our work as a good try, and hire in middleware to solve the problem now our target platform was mobile. The thought was that it would be impossible to release a mobile game without networking. That middleware has had its own problems, mostly down to the server code not being aware of how Godus works in any way, but it did let us release a version of the game where saves were in the cloud, and you could do IAP. Now, we're stuck with a network stack that doesn't handle MMO style gameplay, which is core for Hubworld. When we get the gameplay features we need to make hubworld, we're going to need a while to add in network support all over again. See, now that kind of information sharing would have been great at the time as things actually happen, rather than a year and half or however long later. At least then it gives context to why Molyneux was seemingly talking about things that just up and vanished into thin air and were never spoken of ever again with the only indication that it doesn't even exist now being a side comment about only just starting to think about starting work on something previous said was already in place. Nonetheless, thanks for sharing what happened now.  |
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Post by Spiderweb on Feb 17, 2015 15:42:01 GMT
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Feb 17, 2015 16:10:42 GMT
The Steam network code was developed in july - october 2013 by myself and an intern. We saw the servers come to a standstill when we launched (well, actually about four days after we launched). The cause we only later found out was that the pirate copies started doing weird things that the servers didn't expect, and caused them to throw a hissy fit. This lead to a change to remote networking from the PC build. Yes, you really can blame pirates for your inability to play multiplayer. Given that we didn't have any experience of handling PC level piracy in our two person network team, the decision was made to dump our work as a good try, and hire in middleware to solve the problem now our target platform was mobile. The thought was that it would be impossible to release a mobile game without networking. That middleware has had its own problems, mostly down to the server code not being aware of how Godus works in any way, but it did let us release a version of the game where saves were in the cloud, and you could do IAP. Now, we're stuck with a network stack that doesn't handle MMO style gameplay, which is core for Hubworld. When we get the gameplay features we need to make hubworld, we're going to need a while to add in network support all over again. On the one hand, this in and of itself is totally understandable. On the other, it means all the promotional videos from earlier, in particular from Feb/March 2014, where very specific claims were made as to the nature of hubworld and its pending implementation, can only be seen as coercive marketing. It also means that Peter's claims in recent interviews - that the lack of hubworld is due specifically to server issues from the mobile publisher in November - are at best a misleading half-truth. I know that's got nothing to do with you, it's just a little frustrating. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 17, 2015 16:11:27 GMT
The Steam network code was developed in july - october 2013 by myself and an intern. ~snip~ See, now that kind of information sharing would have been great at the time as things actually happen, rather than a year and half or however long later. At least then it gives context to why Molyneux was seemingly talking about things that just up and vanished into thin air and were never spoken of ever again with the only indication that it doesn't even exist now being a side comment about only just starting to think about starting work on something previous said was already in place. Nonetheless, thanks for sharing what happened now. Yes, precisely on point there. Every time we lamented and threw "hissy fits" about not having proper communications, and complained about a general lack of contextual information over exactly what was going on (within reason) at 22cans in regards to development of Godus, this is the kind of feedback we clambered for. Sure, basic development stuff - like the dev dailies - is fine and very appreciated, many Backers and Early Access folks are in it for the finer details; not just the game itself. Look at almost any (Indie or Industry Crowdfunded or Early Access game development blog, and you'll see them sharing seemingly minor inner workings and details that occur; some may find it mundane or overtly complex to share with "common fllk but it's this sort of "real meat" stuff we funded to be part of. We find it not only fascinating, but also extremely important to understand the overall context and content of the project. Moar plz! |
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Feb 17, 2015 16:17:10 GMT
Feb/March 2014, where very specific claims were made as to the nature of hubworld and its pending implementation That's when we were trying to shoehorn the multiplayer into the non-mmo friendly network code. Actually, to be more precise, I spent January '14 doing performance work on mobile an desktop, and then spent two / three months (can't actually remember) on the hubworld code before concluding it was impossible with the given tech. We stopped hubworld for a while to concentrate on mobile release, and haven't really had the resources (updates and Android sucked us dry of man hours) to return to it. Also we have a new network lead who agrees that the network tech and the design for hubworld, just won't work. We need a new design that pays for the tech we need to make it happen. |
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Feb 17, 2015 16:19:57 GMT
I'm drinking brown rice and green tea while looking at a very long log file of a poor person who lost their save where they had 26000 people. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 17, 2015 16:25:12 GMT
Thanks for sharing what info you know, Raspofabs, it's very highly appreciated. It helps us at least understand more of the hows and whys of the events that unfolded; gives a better perspective of the whole picture. Not to hold any feet to flame, but do you perhaps have any opinion on why these sort of issues and happenings were not communicated to (even in minor detail) the Backers or Community as a whole? There are just so many things that seemed to go wrong on this project, much of which could have been mitigated with better transparency into the inner workings, which we're trying to come to terms on. Whose position was it to decide what was shared, and any insigt as to why they chose not to? |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 17, 2015 16:30:40 GMT
I'm drinking brown rice and green tea while looking at a very long log file of a poor person who lost their save where they had 26000 people. O.o Ouch. Suxxors. That... is an impressive population. Is that even Potentially possible or an, er, glitch? |
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Feb 17, 2015 16:32:26 GMT
Thanks for sharing what info you know, Raspofabs, it's very highly appreciated. It helps us at least understand more of the hows and whys of the events that unfolded; gives a better perspective of the whole picture. Not to hold any feet to flame, but do you perhaps have any opinion on why these sort of issues and happenings were not communicated to (even in minor detail) the Backers or Community as a whole? There are just so many things that seemed to go wrong on this project, much of which could have been mitigated with better transparency into the inner workings, which we're trying to come to terms on. Whose position was it to decide what was shared, and any insigt as to why they chose not to? I think "being quiet" became a thing. Consider the communication with Bryan as an example. |
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Feb 17, 2015 16:37:42 GMT
I'm drinking brown rice and green tea while looking at a very long log file of a poor person who lost their save where they had 26000 people. O.o Ouch. Suxxors. That... is an impressive population. Is that even Potentially possible or an, er, glitch? I collected a pack of ten saves a long while ago for stress testing the game. The top three saves were over 30k followers, and they didn't seem to be cheating. Mobile players can be rather obsessive. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Feb 17, 2015 16:49:51 GMT
O.o Ouch. Suxxors. That... is an impressive population. Is that even Potentially possible or an, er, glitch? I collected a pack of ten saves a long while ago for stress testing the game. The top three saves were over 30k followers, and they didn't seem to be cheating. Mobile players can be rather obsessive. Sweet Jeebus, apparently. A part of me weeps for the future of our society. Imagine what that sort of tenacity would accomplish if focused on solving real-world problems. |
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