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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 18:25:27 GMT
I think having the entire Godus team working on one thing misses a lot of flexibility and feedback support they could have by most working on one thing while having others addressing feedback concerns and just generally going around and adding nice touches to the game for those who might not care or might be sick of hearing about nothing but Combat for a while. A lot of the feeling that 22cans doesn't take on feedback is that they appear stuck in one thing while the rest looks almost untouched by feedback going on several months now, a development grind upon one narrow focus which could result in mistakes being made that could lead to despondent remarks as a result. *cough* Or even breaks now and then for the developers - like for a couple of days to take a revisit to Story or similar to address feedback upon those items, would probably be a refreshing thing after working on Combat so long. That would also seem to have the potential to draw discussions towards actual feedback/input about the game than the matters surrounding it. Generally, any kind of revision-work that takes on feedback and shows results I think could be extremely useful. The only reason I mention combat here is because it's both the most recent and likely most familiar to the new coders. However if they could work back from this point, over the rest of the game, reviewing the pile of feedback that's been given and prioritizing things based on what we're saying now, that would probably be ideal. ...Ideal, but to what degree it would be realistic, I don't think any of us can tell at this point. Same thing towards having the team working on two things at once, yes, that would be great...If they can make it work, but I haven't the slightest clue if they could given their track record. (I'm more prone to think they can't, given what happened when the entire team was on board. They couldn't balance mobile/PC to save their life, whether they could do better with a single platform this time around...I dunno.) I don't think that's a problem anymore. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 18:36:25 GMT
Generally, any kind of revision-work that takes on feedback and shows results I think could be extremely useful. The only reason I mention combat here is because it's both the most recent and likely most familiar to the new coders. However if they could work back from this point, over the rest of the game, reviewing the pile of feedback that's been given and prioritizing things based on what we're saying now, that would probably be ideal. I think that would be handy for them to learn the rest of the codebase and so be able to make wider alterations/additions when it comes to that. I don't know if it is as morsealworth said of a human resources problem, of trying to get developers for the title, or from a weird implementation of planning. It feels like a little of both. Going to try to throw this next bit into a spoiler block so it doesn't immediately derail the topic, but it is a good thing to consider given the problem of development you have discussed:
This is why multiple modes have been suggested, so that what is already there may continue to be enjoyed by those who do, but those other modes of gameplay can be a "do-over" with the assets they already have and have a better possibility to decide how much/how little code involving the "story mode" of what Godus is now to preserve. The ones I've seen most brought up are free play/sandbox for those who love to sculpt, along with colony for those who like to play something more like a colony game but with god powers - no storyline, or maybe event-based story, but mostly just playing in the mechanics of the game to build your colony how you desire as the god you wish to be.
I think of all the discussed game styles, colony would have the best potential to offer multiplayer competition that is better-balanced across different platforms, while the microtransaction hurdles present in story mode could instead be replaced with a "hat" model - aesthetic items that can be purchased a la carte or by theme to make one's followers look a bit more distinctive.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 28, 2015 0:50:38 GMT
Design input would be nice. You could consider it feedback in an alpha stage. Problem comes when many people suggest different things. It's going to be easier for us to take feedback at a stage where we are more able to condense it down into manageable and useable formats - and that's why once the Combat properly reaches Opt-In we'll be in place to collect feedback based on players experiences.  The Opt-In release, which already is your buggy, raw and unfit for public release, is the perfect place for this sort of feedback. I'll be personally collecting it when the time comes. We're not quite ready for that to happen just yet, but it's not far off. As I said before... I'll go into detail about how to send us the feedback closer to release. We've been down this road before. Last year (around this time) we finally received the long anticipated Settlement revamp revamp. That was when we were introduced to the Happiness meter. If that's not a clear enough example, then we could push forward to the last big pre-December release when we were handed Weyworld out of the blue. Or, we could just jump to earlier this year when the ultra amazing story mode was tossed out without any advance warning about how it operated. What's consistent is that 22Cans doesn't understand its customer base. It's yet to prove to any of us that what it's doing is in the right direction (even when it's working on something we believe needs work). With this 6 month combat focus, we've seen nothing beyond a few screen shots and heard little more than a few basic mechanics. 22Cans loves to hear us speculate about mechanics but hates to actually engage in meaningful discussion. It's even worse when a speculation turns out to be accurate, and we've predicted just how bad an idea a feature is. At least, if we'd have engaged in a serious conversation, we might have some understanding why poorly implemented features were allowed to get to the state they are in. All the current policy looks like is a situation where we have the same mistakes being repeated, just with a new crowd of people. We kept hearing PM repeat that 22Cans didn't want community pressure to hamper development. Now, you're implying the same thing. Well, to date, it's not the community's fault the development went off track. At best, we were marginalized. At worst, we were called bullies because we could see just how poorly things were being handled. Perhaps, it's time to actually change how this project is being run. Perhaps, it's time to actually engage the community in meaningful discussion about this game rather than empty stalling tactics while you try to cobble together something new that works. Perhaps, the community could finally "be able to influence its design" as were promised in the Kickstarter. |
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Post by greay on Jul 28, 2015 4:57:27 GMT
The ship has already sailed on combat, but this is something that's come up so many times I've lost count: what about taking feedback before you sequester yourselves away for months developing a feature? That might have a better chance of producing work that the community is invested in. [ed note: that came out much snarkier than I intended it. I apologize] That's alright - I didn't consider it that bad anyway! Gathering feedback before developing a feature isn't feedback as such - more design input. well, sure. Call it feedback on a proposed design or call it design input, I don't really care. Is that something that you might consider trying (again)? (I'm reminded that it did happen once: with the early combat designs. I didn't really pay attention then because it doesn't really interest me, as I wanted to play as primarily a peaceful, benevolent god) I mean, during the kickstarter this was billed as going to be a collaborative process between 22cans & the community. There have been (too infrequent) periods of engagement with the community, but never anything even approaching collaboration. I'm pressing this issue (design input) because we've all seen how feedback after a feature is complete has gone: nowhere. Look at settlements: while I appreciate all the work and iteration that went into them, it sure feels like few if any of the community's major concerns were ever addressed. Look at the story: that was thrown together without any community involvement, universally disliked, and ... nothing. Same with the Astari: no communication beforehand, major issues were brought up by the community, and then nothing. A couple bugs might have been fixed, but nothing to address the fundamental concerns that the community has (and could have been surfaced before work started, if we were involved!). I could go on (Weyworld), but I'm sure you get the idea. Soliciting input early, as long as we're given enough information to give informed input, should ultimately help you and hopefully prevent some of these negative reactions. Both by avoiding rabbit holes, as well as just setting the community's expectations about new features appropriately. Asking for feedback after the fact? Or (worse), building it into the game, like it sounds like you might be doing? You'll be missing out on a lot of valuable feedback. A lot of us are jaded (because of the above reasons), and feedback will be tempered appropriately. Why spend a lot of time on in-depth feedback or pie in the sky ideas when we have no indication it will have any effect? Not to mention some of the most passionate members of the community have become so jaded they've long since uninstalled the game. |
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 28, 2015 5:28:53 GMT
Not to mention that people are sick of being treated as beta testers without getting anything in return.
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Post by Spiderweb on Jul 28, 2015 5:55:34 GMT
Problem comes when many people suggest different things. It's going to be easier for us to take feedback at a stage where we are more able to condense it down into manageable and useable formats - and that's why once the Combat properly reaches Opt-In we'll be in place to collect feedback based on players experiences. The Opt-In release, which already is your buggy, raw and unfit for public release, is the perfect place for this sort of feedback. I'll be personally collecting it when the time comes. We're not quite ready for that to happen just yet, but it's not far off. As I said before... I'll go into detail about how to send us the feedback closer to release. We've been down this road before. Last year (around this time) we finally received the long anticipated Settlement revamp revamp. That was when we were introduced to the Happiness meter. If that's not a clear enough example, then we could push forward to the last big pre-December release when we were handed Weyworld out of the blue. Or, we could just jump to earlier this year when the ultra amazing story mode was tossed out without any advance warning about how it operated. What's consistent is that 22Cans doesn't understand its customer base. It's yet to prove to any of us that what it's doing is in the right direction (even when it's working on something we believe needs work). With this 6 month combat focus, we've seen nothing beyond a few screen shots and heard little more than a few basic mechanics. 22Cans loves to hear us speculate about mechanics but hates to actually engage in meaningful discussion. It's even worse when a speculation turns out to be accurate, and we've predicted just how bad an idea a feature is. At least, if we'd have engaged in a serious conversation, we might have some understanding why poorly implemented features were allowed to get to the state they are in. All the current policy looks like is a situation where we have the same mistakes being repeated, just with a new crowd of people. We kept hearing PM repeat that 22Cans didn't want community pressure to hamper development. Now, you're implying the same thing. Well, to date, it's not the community's fault the development went off track. At best, we were marginalized. At worst, we were called bullies because we could see just how poorly things were being handled. Perhaps, it's time to actually change how this project is being run. Perhaps, it's time to actually engage the community in meaningful discussion about this game rather than empty stalling tactics while you try to cobble together something new that works. Perhaps, the community could finally "be able to influence its design" as were promised in the Kickstarter. There is already feedback for what your planning in combat, are you listening to what is said on steam colin22cans? People aren't that happy that combat is a seperate mode a la mini games (on steam forums as well as here) We've been told its due to screen space for controls? I'm sorry but I can't believe you need a new mode because of control layout, surely that is where you could invent something to handle it. if you are truly splitting it into game modes, which would be slightly better (I think) can you share that with us. I'd like to know if combat is available to the lua script but nobody ever got back to that question I asked for "konrads corner". |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 6:34:01 GMT
I'd be inclined to think specifics regarding community-based changes and feedback reception would be necessary for the community to understand the tangible results of our input.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 6:35:18 GMT
We've been down this road before. Last year (around this time) we finally received the long anticipated Settlement revamp revamp. That was when we were introduced to the Happiness meter. If that's not a clear enough example, then we could push forward to the last big pre-December release when we were handed Weyworld out of the blue. Or, we could just jump to earlier this year when the ultra amazing story mode was tossed out without any advance warning about how it operated. What's consistent is that 22Cans doesn't understand its customer base. It's yet to prove to any of us that what it's doing is in the right direction (even when it's working on something we believe needs work). With this 6 month combat focus, we've seen nothing beyond a few screen shots and heard little more than a few basic mechanics. 22Cans loves to hear us speculate about mechanics but hates to actually engage in meaningful discussion. It's even worse when a speculation turns out to be accurate, and we've predicted just how bad an idea a feature is. At least, if we'd have engaged in a serious conversation, we might have some understanding why poorly implemented features were allowed to get to the state they are in. All the current policy looks like is a situation where we have the same mistakes being repeated, just with a new crowd of people. We kept hearing PM repeat that 22Cans didn't want community pressure to hamper development. Now, you're implying the same thing. Well, to date, it's not the community's fault the development went off track. At best, we were marginalized. At worst, we were called bullies because we could see just how poorly things were being handled. Perhaps, it's time to actually change how this project is being run. Perhaps, it's time to actually engage the community in meaningful discussion about this game rather than empty stalling tactics while you try to cobble together something new that works. Perhaps, the community could finally "be able to influence its design" as were promised in the Kickstarter. There is already feedback for what your planning in combat, are you listening to what is said on steam colin22cans? People aren't that happy that combat is a seperate mode a la mini games (on steam forums as well as here) We've been told its due to screen space for controls? I'm sorry but I can't believe you need a new mode because of control layout, surely that is where you could invent something to handle it. if you are truly splitting it into game modes, which would be slightly better (I think) can you share that with us. I'd like to know if combat is available to the lua script but nobody ever got back to that question I asked for "konrads corner". The last Konrad's Corner was three months ago. |
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Post by militairensneuvelen on Jul 28, 2015 7:02:51 GMT
Design input would be nice. You could consider it feedback in an alpha stage. Problem comes when many people suggest different things. It's going to be easier for us to take feedback at a stage where we are more able to condense it down into manageable and useable formats - and that's why once the Combat properly reaches Opt-In we'll be in place to collect feedback based on players experiences. The Opt-In release, which already is your buggy, raw and unfit for public release, is the perfect place for this sort of feedback. I'll be personally collecting it when the time comes. We're not quite ready for that to happen just yet, but it's not far off. As I said before... I'll go into detail about how to send us the feedback closer to release. Feedback... Yeah, I remember the days of "feedback" etc. Just like "We can't make A, because we have no budget for A" But the next thing you know, at Thanksgiving, we got a lot of A. And with Christmas we got a lot of A. Valentines day we got A. Easter we got A. You guys are worse jokers then Danny Kaye in the Inspector General... And worse fencers... |
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Post by hardly on Jul 28, 2015 7:21:37 GMT
I don't see why 22Cans cant present their big picture plan for how combat will be integrated into the game and allow us to feedback on that.
The only reason I can think of is that either 22Cans don't have plan (that is a big problem) or they don't think we will like the plan.
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Post by Spiderweb on Jul 28, 2015 7:43:33 GMT
There is already feedback for what your planning in combat, are you listening to what is said on steam colin22cans? People aren't that happy that combat is a seperate mode a la mini games (on steam forums as well as here) We've been told its due to screen space for controls? I'm sorry but I can't believe you need a new mode because of control layout, surely that is where you could invent something to handle it. if you are truly splitting it into game modes, which would be slightly better (I think) can you share that with us. I'd like to know if combat is available to the lua script but nobody ever got back to that question I asked for "konrads corner". The last Konrad's Corner was three months ago. Yep and before Dave disappeared from the forums he said he would get me an answer. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 7:52:29 GMT
I don't see why 22Cans cant present their big picture plan for how combat will be integrated into the game and allow us to feedback on that. The only reason I can think of is that either 22Cans don't have plan (that is a big problem) or they don't think we will like the plan. 22Cans had a plan beforehand and they, in all likeliness have a plan now. The prior plan remained hidden from the community until it was divulged at a post-release developer conference; I doubt we'll be so lucky this time. Extrapolating the prior plan does not paint a pretty picture, especially since combat was previously described as a mobile content pack... Quite afraid that, much like the Story update, we shall have to wait for Combat to hit mobile in order to understand the design impetus behind it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 8:00:50 GMT
The last Konrad's Corner was three months ago. Yep and before Dave disappeared from the forums he said he would get me an answer. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 10:55:00 GMT
I don't see why 22Cans cant present their big picture plan for how combat will be integrated into the game and allow us to feedback on that. The only reason I can think of is that either 22Cans don't have plan (that is a big problem) or they don't think we will like the plan. The plan is to cobble something together and release it as a finished game. We want a great game that's fun to play and fullfills all the promises that where made. So our input will never fit theire plan. If they accept to discuss features with us this will lead to much more frustration and the situation will escalate to soon. So they try to finish the product, release it wit a calculated uproar. That's better than month of countinous chaos. |
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 28, 2015 11:06:41 GMT
I don't see why 22Cans cant present their big picture plan for how combat will be integrated into the game and allow us to feedback on that. The only reason I can think of is that either 22Cans don't have plan (that is a big problem) or they don't think we will like the plan. The plan is to cobble something together and release it as a finished game. We want a great game that's fun to play and fullfills all the promises that where made. So our input will never fit theire plan. If they accept to discuss features with us this will lead to much more frustration and the situation will escalate to soon. So they try to finish the product, release it wit a calculated uproar. That's better than month of countinous chaos. If that's the case, there'll be no difference between now and a year ago. |
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 28, 2015 11:23:11 GMT
Not to mention that people are sick of being treated as beta testers without getting anything in return. I'll see what I can do on that front. Leave it with me |
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 28, 2015 11:34:41 GMT
The plan is to cobble something together and release it as a finished game. We want a great game that's fun to play and fullfills all the promises that where made. So our input will never fit theire plan. If they accept to discuss features with us this will lead to much more frustration and the situation will escalate to soon. So they try to finish the product, release it wit a calculated uproar. That's better than month of countinous chaos. If that's the case, there'll be no difference between now and a year ago. Seriously considering hiring Sundance as our Internal Development Planner. That isn't the plan.  We're currently working on Combat, an early build will be available on our Steam Opt-In testing channel when we feel that it is ready (It won't be too long now). This won't be a complete build - It will be buggy, it might be a little broken, there will be a way of offering feedback that will be looked at, listened to and assessed - I'll be one of the people in charge of collecting feedback and working with the production team to make sure that the important things that are brought up are worked on, fixed, tweaked, etc.. Community feedback will be incredibly important to the release of our combat. Opt-In will be the first chance to offer all kinds of in-game feedback on the combat. That's the current plan and that's all we're talking about at this moment. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 13:39:42 GMT
If that's the case, there'll be no difference between now and a year ago. Seriously considering hiring Sundance as our Internal Development Planner. That isn't the plan. We're currently working on Combat, an early build will be available on our Steam Opt-In testing channel when we feel that it is ready (It won't be too long now). This won't be a complete build - It will be buggy, it might be a little broken, there will be a way of offering feedback that will be looked at, listened to and assessed - I'll be one of the people in charge of collecting feedback and working with the production team to make sure that the important things that are brought up are worked on, fixed, tweaked, etc.. Community feedback will be incredibly important to the release of our combat. Opt-In will be the first chance to offer all kinds of in-game feedback on the combat. That's the current plan and that's all we're talking about at this moment. Getroffene Hunde bellen.
Are you sure? I heard a lot of things from a lot of people at 22cans - most of them said things that never came true. Maybe it's because nobody told you what the plan really is? On the contrary, i (and many other) said a lot of things since alpha and many of them happend. Oh, that's not because i am such a smart person, it's more because those things are very obvious.
I really heard a lot about feedback and things that should be fixed, tweaked etc.. and every now and then we hear of someone that he and 22cans fucked up and then we hear the same things again.
Maybe yes, it would be a great idea to give me the job of an internal development planner, could it get worse? I don't think so. But on the other hand i would be really happy if you give me my money back then i wouldn't have to tell you what you are doing - that's something i would prefer.
But anyway, if you don't want me to guess about your plans then you are welcome to show me how you want to fix this mess. And no, i don't want to hear about the combat - that's not fixing the game, that's to duct tape something together which will collapse a few days after release.
I'm awaiting to hear from your (22cans) plan. That's what i asked for since the start of this project but 22cans is avoiding to answer this question. It's not that we didn't ask. In the beginning it was because of mobile and f2p which is (i heard from some 22cans employee) not in the game ... oh wonder ... a few weeks later it was in the game. So if there is a plan now, why don't you talk about it? I see two possible answers 1. there is no plan 2. there is one that we don't want to hear. 2. is the one i mentioned above.
So come on and tell me what the game will be like in the vision of you (especially 22cans) and the designers? Then we can talk about how you want to reach those goals. I am here? For years now. Waiting to hear about that?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 13:40:34 GMT
The plan is to cobble something together and release it as a finished game. We want a great game that's fun to play and fullfills all the promises that where made. So our input will never fit theire plan. If they accept to discuss features with us this will lead to much more frustration and the situation will escalate to soon. So they try to finish the product, release it wit a calculated uproar. That's better than month of countinous chaos. If that's the case, there'll be no difference between now and a year ago. Who said that there is a difference? |
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Post by Spiderweb on Jul 28, 2015 13:43:38 GMT
We've been down this road before. Last year (around this time) we finally received the long anticipated Settlement revamp revamp. That was when we were introduced to the Happiness meter. If that's not a clear enough example, then we could push forward to the last big pre-December release when we were handed Weyworld out of the blue. Or, we could just jump to earlier this year when the ultra amazing story mode was tossed out without any advance warning about how it operated. What's consistent is that 22Cans doesn't understand its customer base. It's yet to prove to any of us that what it's doing is in the right direction (even when it's working on something we believe needs work). With this 6 month combat focus, we've seen nothing beyond a few screen shots and heard little more than a few basic mechanics. 22Cans loves to hear us speculate about mechanics but hates to actually engage in meaningful discussion. It's even worse when a speculation turns out to be accurate, and we've predicted just how bad an idea a feature is. At least, if we'd have engaged in a serious conversation, we might have some understanding why poorly implemented features were allowed to get to the state they are in. All the current policy looks like is a situation where we have the same mistakes being repeated, just with a new crowd of people. We kept hearing PM repeat that 22Cans didn't want community pressure to hamper development. Now, you're implying the same thing. Well, to date, it's not the community's fault the development went off track. At best, we were marginalized. At worst, we were called bullies because we could see just how poorly things were being handled. Perhaps, it's time to actually change how this project is being run. Perhaps, it's time to actually engage the community in meaningful discussion about this game rather than empty stalling tactics while you try to cobble together something new that works. Perhaps, the community could finally "be able to influence its design" as were promised in the Kickstarter. There is already feedback for what your planning in combat, are you listening to what is said on steam colin22cans? People aren't that happy that combat is a seperate mode a la mini games (on steam forums as well as here) We've been told its due to screen space for controls? I'm sorry but I can't believe you need a new mode because of control layout, surely that is where you could invent something to handle it. if you are truly splitting it into game modes, which would be slightly better (I think) can you share that with us. I'd like to know if combat is available to the lua script but nobody ever got back to that question I asked for "konrads corner". Since you are answering questions colin22cans, can you tell me if combat commands\objects etc are going to be exposed so we can use this stuff in LUA and the world editor? |
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