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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 26, 2015 19:29:04 GMT
simon22cans/ colin22cans, if we give you some heavy feedback on it once it's out there...Should we expect some real work on it? This would probably be your best opportunity since coming aboard (you weren't around for that meek attempt at story, right?) to demonstrate you legitimately do intend to make good on the game's development. Hopefully you've already caught up on this by now, but one of the biggest problems in this game's development is that 22cans takes all this time to make stuff, then leaves it hanging there half-working, and never seriously revisits it. Well, here's your first chance at delivering something then not ditching it, and taking on our feedback where improvements may be thought to be necessary. I think you've sort of said as much in that recent Eurogamer interview, but a proper commitment to this to demonstrate you can and will do so, and doing this for each following update, could go a long way to improving things around here.
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 27, 2015 9:30:32 GMT
simon22cans/ colin22cans, if we give you some heavy feedback on it once it's out there...Should we expect some real work on it? This would probably be your best opportunity since coming aboard (you weren't around for that meek attempt at story, right?) to demonstrate you legitimately do intend to make good on the game's development. Hopefully you've already caught up on this by now, but one of the biggest problems in this game's development is that 22cans takes all this time to make stuff, then leaves it hanging there half-working, and never seriously revisits it. Well, here's your first chance at delivering something then not ditching it, and taking on our feedback where improvements may be thought to be necessary. I think you've sort of said as much in that recent Eurogamer interview, but a proper commitment to this to demonstrate you can and will do so, and doing this for each following update, could go a long way to improving things around here. We're not quite at the feedback stage for Combat just yet. That time will come when players are able to get their hands on the combat build as it's pushed into our Steam Opt-In channel.  We're looking at including more ways of adding feedback (from within in game) and that's something I'll talk about in depth nearer the Opt-In release. |
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Post by greay on Jul 27, 2015 11:55:01 GMT
simon22cans/ colin22cans, if we give you some heavy feedback on it once it's out there...Should we expect some real work on it? This would probably be your best opportunity since coming aboard (you weren't around for that meek attempt at story, right?) to demonstrate you legitimately do intend to make good on the game's development. Hopefully you've already caught up on this by now, but one of the biggest problems in this game's development is that 22cans takes all this time to make stuff, then leaves it hanging there half-working, and never seriously revisits it. Well, here's your first chance at delivering something then not ditching it, and taking on our feedback where improvements may be thought to be necessary. I think you've sort of said as much in that recent Eurogamer interview, but a proper commitment to this to demonstrate you can and will do so, and doing this for each following update, could go a long way to improving things around here. We're not quite at the feedback stage for Combat just yet. That time will come when players are able to get their hands on the combat build as it's pushed into our Steam Opt-In channel. We're looking at including more ways of adding feedback (from within in game) and that's something I'll talk about in depth nearer the Opt-In release. The ship has already sailed on combat, but this is something that's come up so many times I've lost count: what about taking feedback before you sequester yourselves away for months developing a feature? That might have a better chance of producing work that the community is invested in. [ed note: that came out much snarkier than I intended it. I apologize] |
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Post by Deth on Jul 27, 2015 12:01:52 GMT
It might help improve feelings with some of the community if you re-opened the Alpha for those in kickstarter that paid for Alpha. Having more people look at a build can only help you find more bugs and can give you an idea of how the community feels about a feature you are working on.
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Post by mindless on Jul 27, 2015 12:16:36 GMT
I wonder if the cans aren't missing a trick here, by taking so long to polish up a feature before release. Why not push it out even at an early stage, warts and all, limping along with only half a leg. Because I think its the lack of involvement that the community feels agreeved by, why not let them play with something even as its forming, as its starting to take shape, then they can feel like they are at least on the same journey as the developers. So what if its broken, or falls apart, if your using a dev build at the bleeding edge, that should be a given anyway.
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Post by Aynen on Jul 27, 2015 12:21:51 GMT
We're not quite at the feedback stage for Combat just yet. That time will come when players are able to get their hands on the combat build as it's pushed into our Steam Opt-In channel. We're looking at including more ways of adding feedback (from within in game) and that's something I'll talk about in depth nearer the Opt-In release. The ship has already sailed on combat, but this is something that's come up so many times I've lost count: what about taking feedback before you sequester yourselves away for months developing a feature? That might have a better chance of producing work that the community is invested in. [ed note: that came out much snarkier than I intended it. I apologize] I actually talked to Colin about this subject just this morning. I told him that people are worrying about it being too late for meaningful feedback by the time combat goes onto opt-in, using something as impactful as indirect unit control as an example. He told me, and I quote: "Not too late". |
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 27, 2015 12:36:40 GMT
We're not quite at the feedback stage for Combat just yet. That time will come when players are able to get their hands on the combat build as it's pushed into our Steam Opt-In channel. We're looking at including more ways of adding feedback (from within in game) and that's something I'll talk about in depth nearer the Opt-In release. The ship has already sailed on combat, but this is something that's come up so many times I've lost count: what about taking feedback before you sequester yourselves away for months developing a feature? That might have a better chance of producing work that the community is invested in. [ed note: that came out much snarkier than I intended it. I apologize] That's alright - I didn't consider it that bad anyway! Gathering feedback before developing a feature isn't feedback as such - more design input. |
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 27, 2015 12:45:11 GMT
The ship has already sailed on combat, but this is something that's come up so many times I've lost count: what about taking feedback before you sequester yourselves away for months developing a feature? That might have a better chance of producing work that the community is invested in. [ed note: that came out much snarkier than I intended it. I apologize] That's alright - I didn't consider it that bad anyway! Gathering feedback before developing a feature isn't feedback as such - more design input. Design input would be nice. You could consider it feedback in an alpha stage. |
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 27, 2015 13:10:25 GMT
That's alright - I didn't consider it that bad anyway! Gathering feedback before developing a feature isn't feedback as such - more design input. Design input would be nice. You could consider it feedback in an alpha stage. Problem comes when many people suggest different things. It's going to be easier for us to take feedback at a stage where we are more able to condense it down into manageable and useable formats - and that's why once the Combat properly reaches Opt-In we'll be in place to collect feedback based on players experiences. The Opt-In release, which already is your buggy, raw and unfit for public release, is the perfect place for this sort of feedback. I'll be personally collecting it when the time comes. We're not quite ready for that to happen just yet, but it's not far off. As I said before... I'll go into detail about how to send us the feedback closer to release. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 13:18:01 GMT
I feel that what is now being referred to as "design input" is remarkably more important than post-release feedback, at this point. The last update was a good example of this. |
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Post by totallytim on Jul 27, 2015 15:05:39 GMT
The ship has already sailed on combat, but this is something that's come up so many times I've lost count: what about taking feedback before you sequester yourselves away for months developing a feature? That might have a better chance of producing work that the community is invested in. [ed note: that came out much snarkier than I intended it. I apologize] I actually talked to Colin about this subject just this morning. I told him that people are worrying about it being too late for meaningful feedback by the time combat goes onto opt-in, using something as impactful as indirect unit control as an example. He told me, and I quote: "Not too late". No to late for what or whom? It's just that I question the willingness and/or ability to make big changes if combat (or any other feature) isn't well received. The main concern being money. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 27, 2015 15:28:15 GMT
simon22cans/ colin22cans, if we give you some heavy feedback on it once it's out there...Should we expect some real work on it? This would probably be your best opportunity since coming aboard (you weren't around for that meek attempt at story, right?) to demonstrate you legitimately do intend to make good on the game's development. Hopefully you've already caught up on this by now, but one of the biggest problems in this game's development is that 22cans takes all this time to make stuff, then leaves it hanging there half-working, and never seriously revisits it. Well, here's your first chance at delivering something then not ditching it, and taking on our feedback where improvements may be thought to be necessary. I think you've sort of said as much in that recent Eurogamer interview, but a proper commitment to this to demonstrate you can and will do so, and doing this for each following update, could go a long way to improving things around here. We're not quite at the feedback stage for Combat just yet. That time will come when players are able to get their hands on the combat build as it's pushed into our Steam Opt-In channel. We're looking at including more ways of adding feedback (from within in game) and that's something I'll talk about in depth nearer the Opt-In release. Er...Sorry, I think you skimmed past, "once it's out there..." I know it's not to that point yet, which is why I was asking once it is, if we should expect more elaboration on it shortly afterward that isn't fixing some small bugs here and there, but taking into account whatever feedback we might have in store for you (that's somewhat constructive). Key words there being: more elaboration. We've heard that you're taking feedback for some time now, it's putting that into the game in some fashion where we see the problems arise. |
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 27, 2015 15:56:15 GMT
We're not quite at the feedback stage for Combat just yet. That time will come when players are able to get their hands on the combat build as it's pushed into our Steam Opt-In channel. We're looking at including more ways of adding feedback (from within in game) and that's something I'll talk about in depth nearer the Opt-In release. Er...Sorry, I think you skimmed past, "once it's out there..." I know it's not to that point yet, which is why I was asking once it is, if we should expect more elaboration on it shortly afterward that isn't fixing some small bugs here and there, but taking into account whatever feedback we might have in store for you (that's somewhat constructive). Key words there being: more elaboration. We've heard that you're taking feedback for some time now, it's putting that into the game in some fashion where we see the problems arise. Once it's out there there will be a way of submitting feedback that allows for players to ask for feature changes, small tweaks, bug fixes etc. That's not to say that every bit of feedback will be acted upon but I'll make sure everything is assessed. The public feedback gathered will be important to the release of the Godus combat. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 16:11:03 GMT
To put it another way:
I think what Gmr Leon is getting at is questioning how much post-Combat support there will be, as during Combat development it seemed like there wasn't any way to work upon the feedback from Story - or anything else.
Undoubtedly, as more and more people would play with the Combat more feedback upon Combat will present itself, and so there should be some way for that feedback to possibly make it into development. So it would seem that there shouldn't be any "window" of limited feedback time before it becomes closed off for the next item being developed. I also think this is an important concern, especially if Combat were to serve as the foundation for something else.
"Design input" was a great time around when Konrad was discussing this with the community, as spirits were higher and the community would be more involved with the game's ongoing development, and I do recall there being quite a bit of discussion around his design documents.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 16:42:27 GMT
To put it another way: I think what Gmr Leon is getting at is questioning how much post-Combat support there will be, as during Combat development it seemed like there wasn't any way to work upon the feedback from Story - or anything else. Undoubtedly, as more and more people would play with the Combat more feedback upon Combat will present itself, and so there should be some way for that feedback to possibly make it into development. So it would seem that there shouldn't be any "window" of limited feedback time before it becomes closed off for the next item being developed. I also think this is an important concern, especially if Combat were to serve as the foundation for something else. "Design input" was a great time around when Konrad was discussing this with the community, as spirits were higher and the community would be more involved with the game's ongoing development, and I do recall there being quite a bit of discussion around his design documents. To be fair, that particular period included the Story update *edited* by James Leach, which never saw any feedback-based changes except "minor bugs", contrary to what we were told post-release. Going back to the levels of communication with the actual developers e.g. FuriousMoo should a primary priority at this point, as it would enable the community to have their feedback influence the core of further updates through "design input", and avoid further situations like the above. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 27, 2015 16:46:02 GMT
To put it another way: I think what Gmr Leon is getting at is questioning how much post-Combat support there will be, as during Combat development it seemed like there wasn't any way to work upon the feedback from Story - or anything else. Undoubtedly, as more and more people would play with the Combat more feedback upon Combat will present itself, and so there should be some way for that feedback to possibly make it into development. So it would seem that there shouldn't be any "window" of limited feedback time before it becomes closed off for the next item being developed. I also think this is an important concern, especially if Combat were to serve as the foundation for something else. "Design input" was a great time around when Konrad was discussing this with the community, as spirits were higher and the community would be more involved with the game's ongoing development, and I do recall there being quite a bit of discussion around his design documents. Basically this, yes. I fully understand that 1. feedback will be processed and 2. not all of that will make its way into the game, but what I'm concerned with is what happens after the processing part since that's where we've seen it seem to disappear into the void in the past. The closest we've seen to that not happening was when Spiderweb and I were briefly looking into the custom world tools awhile back, as we pretty rapidly got to see little requests turn into surfacing of lots of scripting info to work with (courtesy of mrdrpink and pavlemihajlovic). If we were to see something like that again with the combat after it hits the opt-in, which I've seen some decent indications of with my back and forths with Pankoi in the past, as I said in the OP, I think that (and a consistent pattern of that) could help things out a lot. Hope that's clearer. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 17:47:18 GMT
Basically this, yes. I fully understand that 1. feedback will be processed and 2. not all of that will make its way into the game, but what I'm concerned with is what happens after the processing part since that's where we've seen it seem to disappear into the void in the past. The closest we've seen to that not happening was when Spiderweb and I were briefly looking into the custom world tools awhile back, as we pretty rapidly got to see little requests turn into surfacing of lots of scripting info to work with (courtesy of mrdrpink and pavlemihajlovic). If we were to see something like that again with the combat after it hits the opt-in, which I've seen some decent indications of with my back and forths with Pankoi in the past, as I said in the OP, I think that (and a consistent pattern of that) could help things out a lot. Hope that's clearer. I think having the entire Godus team working on one thing misses a lot of flexibility and feedback support they could have by most working on one thing while having others addressing feedback concerns and just generally going around and adding nice touches to the game for those who might not care or might be sick of hearing about nothing but Combat for a while. A lot of the feeling that 22cans doesn't take on feedback is that they appear stuck in one thing while the rest looks almost untouched by feedback going on several months now, a development grind upon one narrow focus which could result in mistakes being made that could lead to despondent remarks as a result. *cough* Or even breaks now and then for the developers - like for a couple of days to take a revisit to Story or similar to address feedback upon those items, would probably be a refreshing thing after working on Combat so long. That would also seem to have the potential to draw discussions towards actual feedback/input about the game than the matters surrounding it. |
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Post by morsealworth on Jul 27, 2015 18:03:31 GMT
Basically this, yes. I fully understand that 1. feedback will be processed and 2. not all of that will make its way into the game, but what I'm concerned with is what happens after the processing part since that's where we've seen it seem to disappear into the void in the past. The closest we've seen to that not happening was when Spiderweb and I were briefly looking into the custom world tools awhile back, as we pretty rapidly got to see little requests turn into surfacing of lots of scripting info to work with (courtesy of mrdrpink and pavlemihajlovic). If we were to see something like that again with the combat after it hits the opt-in, which I've seen some decent indications of with my back and forths with Pankoi in the past, as I said in the OP, I think that (and a consistent pattern of that) could help things out a lot. Hope that's clearer. I think having the entire Godus team working on one thing misses a lot of flexibility and feedback support they could have by most working on one thing while having others addressing feedback concerns and just generally going around and adding nice touches to the game for those who might not care or might be sick of hearing about nothing but Combat for a while. A lot of the feeling that 22cans doesn't take on feedback is that they appear stuck in one thing while the rest looks almost untouched by feedback going on several months now, a development grind upon one narrow focus which could result in mistakes being made that could lead to despondent remarks as a result. *cough* Or even breaks now and then for the developers - like for a couple of days to take a revisit to Story or similar to address feedback upon those items, would probably be a refreshing thing after working on Combat so long. That would also seem to have the potential to draw discussions towards actual feedback/input about the game than the matters surrounding it. I wonder what the reason is. Maybe the lack of human resources? |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 27, 2015 18:05:36 GMT
Basically this, yes. I fully understand that 1. feedback will be processed and 2. not all of that will make its way into the game, but what I'm concerned with is what happens after the processing part since that's where we've seen it seem to disappear into the void in the past. The closest we've seen to that not happening was when Spiderweb and I were briefly looking into the custom world tools awhile back, as we pretty rapidly got to see little requests turn into surfacing of lots of scripting info to work with (courtesy of mrdrpink and pavlemihajlovic). If we were to see something like that again with the combat after it hits the opt-in, which I've seen some decent indications of with my back and forths with Pankoi in the past, as I said in the OP, I think that (and a consistent pattern of that) could help things out a lot. Hope that's clearer. I think having the entire Godus team working on one thing misses a lot of flexibility and feedback support they could have by most working on one thing while having others addressing feedback concerns and just generally going around and adding nice touches to the game for those who might not care or might be sick of hearing about nothing but Combat for a while. A lot of the feeling that 22cans doesn't take on feedback is that they appear stuck in one thing while the rest looks almost untouched by feedback going on several months now, a development grind upon one narrow focus which could result in mistakes being made that could lead to despondent remarks as a result. *cough* Or even breaks now and then for the developers - like for a couple of days to take a revisit to Story or similar to address feedback upon those items, would probably be a refreshing thing after working on Combat so long. That would also seem to have the potential to draw discussions towards actual feedback/input about the game than the matters surrounding it. Generally, any kind of revision-work that takes on feedback and shows results I think could be extremely useful. The only reason I mention combat here is because it's both the most recent and likely most familiar to the new coders. However if they could work back from this point, over the rest of the game, reviewing the pile of feedback that's been given and prioritizing things based on what we're saying now, that would probably be ideal. ...Ideal, but to what degree it would be realistic, I don't think any of us can tell at this point. Same thing towards having the team working on two things at once, yes, that would be great...If they can make it work, but I haven't the slightest clue if they could given their track record. (I'm more prone to think they can't, given what happened when the entire team was on board. They couldn't balance mobile/PC to save their life, whether they could do better with a single platform this time around...I dunno.) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 18:23:15 GMT
I think having the entire Godus team working on one thing misses a lot of flexibility and feedback support they could have by most working on one thing while having others addressing feedback concerns and just generally going around and adding nice touches to the game for those who might not care or might be sick of hearing about nothing but Combat for a while. A lot of the feeling that 22cans doesn't take on feedback is that they appear stuck in one thing while the rest looks almost untouched by feedback going on several months now, a development grind upon one narrow focus which could result in mistakes being made that could lead to despondent remarks as a result. *cough* Or even breaks now and then for the developers - like for a couple of days to take a revisit to Story or similar to address feedback upon those items, would probably be a refreshing thing after working on Combat so long. That would also seem to have the potential to draw discussions towards actual feedback/input about the game than the matters surrounding it. I wonder what the reason is. Maybe the lack of human resources? That's impossible, Simon already told us that having more people, much less more experienced people, on the Godus team won't help development because something something commercial reality something something experienced interns. Reminds me of the former community manager's post about how only two people were actually working on Godus way back when. I would like to see FuriousMoo return to this board since he was much, much more upfront about the mobile influence on design decisions and the viability of Kickstarter features than the current administration. Now we have to wait for the mobile content packs to come to mobile to see the role of mobile monetization in said design decisions. |
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