splitterwind
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Post by splitterwind on Jun 26, 2014 3:47:33 GMT
Sim City doesn't have such timers and gives you full control over time, because its not an RTS but a simulation and it knows that! IMHO it does have timers, you just don't see them. When you're zoning an area, for example, you need to wait for buildings of a specific type to appear and then upgrade themselves. Addimitedly it's dependent on a number of factors - electricity, water supply etc. - but it does still take time. I'd say there is a difference between a "timer" and things that just take time. Of course not everything in a game can happen instantly or should every game be turn based. Reloading in a first person shooter is also a (very short) timer running down until I'm able to shoot again, but that is barely comparable. So are the "timers" in Sim City. There is an immeasurable amount of "timers" in realtime games as any realtime game has to keep track of time internally. Its impossible to have a realtime game without "timers". Though its arguably what a timer is, I wouldn't say that waiting for my coffee machine to heat up in the morning is a timer. The timers in other games feel as natural as waiting for your coffee mashine to heat up, these "timers" are embedded in the simulation, aren't annoying, do not feel like a barrier and I do not have to wait for a single one of them to finish before I can continue. And most other games even give me the possibility to speed up time, these "timers" are not meant to be annoying, to slow my progress, I don't have to invest anything to speed them up, the ability to speed time up is the evidence that they are just a necessary part of the simulation. Definitely. Having a nice and fitting animation helps too. It would give the illusion that there is a reason to wait for. If I see people working on a cathedral and see the framework to grow, walls to rear I feel that there is a reason to wait for, and its not that a developer wanted to raise the desire to speed it up by investing money. I personally think its actually way more fun to watch it being build and taking time than just appearing after I clicked, its actually enhances the atmosphere of the game and make it feel more realistic. But waiting for a cathedral or world wonder to finish is one thing, waiting for a small shrine to be captured so that my followers can build on land that is somehow unreachable for them is not. Also I had at least some control over these "timers". Either through speeding up time directly or making sure that all resources are there. In Civilization you could reallocate your workers on tiles to increase the amount of work produced at the expanse of a slower population growth and science points generated. They made sense in terms of gameplay (they gave you big powers or there was a race who finished them first with other players) and in atmosphere (world wonders and cathedrals just took a lot of time to finish). The belief system and slow spreading of influence in black and white felt natural too. Waiting for belief and capturing shrines in Godus does not feel natural or makes sense, neither as a gamplay mechanic nor in terms of atmosphere. |
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splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jun 26, 2014 4:06:57 GMT
Or otherwise said, removing or just heavily reducing the timers of the other games would actually make them worse - less turns until I can detain other players from finishing their wonders, less time to start and finish my own wonder first, less or no time to react to changes (for example adjusting taxes in Sim City), less strategy as I wouldn't need to keep track resources for buildings that are still being build, less atmosphere as seeing unfinished buildings or a cathedral in my city and watching these buildings slowly finish is enhancing the atmosphere.
"Timers" in that games are such an important part of the game and simulation that it wouldn't work without it. They are necessary.
Would Godus work without timers or heavily reduced timers? It would become better, I'd say. Timers in Godus are put on and do not offer anything.
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Post by engarde on Jun 26, 2014 8:28:00 GMT
Ah but the twists we have on timers here are 1) time does not flow normally 2) time flow varies during interactive gameplay 3) during just leave it running gameplay 4) exit game some things still trickle on 5) leased followers you've allocated to a build give up and stop obeying the lease when timers exceed a couple of days!
So for me 5 days into a 3 day timer where it is now less than a day - I've repeated had to lease a dozen or more followers to the site only to find later than all the abodes from which they were leashed are now refilled because their leash marker has expired - even if I boost them insitu.
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Matthew Allen
Former 22Cans staff
Full Time Rock Star
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Post by Matthew Allen on Jun 26, 2014 18:06:46 GMT
That's some really good insight splitterwind; appreciate you taking the time to reply in some depth (and you too engarde!). Going to jot down a few notes from this thread and include it in an upcoming report or two.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jun 26, 2014 20:26:57 GMT
Thanks Matthew.. maybe instead of writing yet another report for the devs though, which for all we know goes straight in the shredder, you could write a report for the community based on the devs response to some of these ideas?
Unless 22cans is an office of stone-faced silence I can imagine that the ideas generated by the online community come up once in a while in conversation. Peter has probably had a few things to say about it - "we will not do that in a million years" or "yes I'd never thought of that, it could work". Unless of course these conversations DON'T take place because it's widely understood that no one gives a shit what the dumbass PC gamers say.
I'm not asking you to set up a meeting with anyone. You guys have already made it clear that the devs have less time in their diaries than the worlds busiest CEO and there is literally no chance of speaking to them about any of our ideas, ever. But you must know SOMETHING about what's going on in response to some of these very specific suggestions and ideas.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 27, 2014 13:40:06 GMT
Thanks Matthew.. maybe instead of writing yet another report for the devs though, which for all we know goes straight in the shredder, you could write a report for the community based on the devs response to some of these ideas? Unless 22cans is an office of stone-faced silence I can imagine that the ideas generated by the online community come up once in a while in conversation. Peter has probably had a few things to say about it - "we will not do that in a million years" or "yes I'd never thought of that, it could work". Unless of course these conversations DON'T take place because it's widely understood that no one gives a shit what the dumbass PC gamers say. I'm not asking you to set up a meeting with anyone. You guys have already made it clear that the devs have less time in their diaries than the worlds busiest CEO and there is literally no chance of speaking to them about any of our ideas, ever. But you must know SOMETHING about what's going on in response to some of these very specific suggestions and ideas. The truth is, it's not something they're focusing on until after the worldwide release of Godus on mobile and the immediate window following that where we'll be focusing on urgent incoming support issues. Once that's out the way, Matthew and I will be going through your feedback with Peter and Jack ahead of the PC focused sprint and then we'll be able to get answers to these questions. Luckily, the refinements and enhancements we're currently working on will improve the game universally regardless of platform and you'll be seeing those results before the end of next month. I think Followers who gather chests etc has a good likelihood of being implemented, but I've nothing I can confirm for certain right now I'm afraid. |
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Post by hardly on Jun 27, 2014 22:15:34 GMT
Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I don't think the idea of followers collecting chests is the right way to go. It doubles down on the mechanic that attracts the most criticism. Its not a bad intermediary step (automation of chore is always good) but better would be followers undertaking an activity that generates resources or science (depends whether Devs think stickers represent resources or tech). Creating scope for specialisation would improve the choice element we have been discussing, it would also add a reason to grow. The bigger you get the more specialisation you can sustain. This is how human civilisation evolved in the first place. I know its been said a thousand times but you should be looking at a class that gathers belief and a class (or classes) that generates science/resources. Personally I'd drop the chests and keep the stickers. If you want to improve the stickers I'd create a completion bar for them based on people's activity (gathering/researching) and then give a "sticker" on completion. You'd want to reduce the numbers though so they felt more significant. I'd note Qetesh's comments here and say if you want to improve stickers some aesthetic changes to make mature orientated wouldn't be a bad idea.
Keep in mind people don't just hate chests for the chore of finding them. They also hate chests because they are wondering why tech comes from chests - see earlier discussions re metaphors. They also appear to be a thinly veiled FTP mechanic (rare items are dropped over time or you can just buy them to speed things up). I don't want to be an asshat everytime you/the devs reach out with a change but its really important that we help you get to the heart of what is wrong with GODUS not just address symptoms. Given the state of the game I recommend you look at a phased improvement for these areas. A short term fix might be automated pickup by follwers but at the same time you could release a mini roadmap showing future improvements to the metaphor/mechanic that shows us you are working to something better just a little slowly.
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Post by banned on Jun 29, 2014 14:20:10 GMT
...a difference between a "timer" and things that just take time...the illusion that there is a reason to wait for.... I have not played in a week. Had left full builder lot on the expansion after the one on top of the dormant volcano. It still has 1day 9 hours. I now play 22can's game for the same reason I watched Sharknado twice, "how bad can this be done?". Still not sure if their attempts to convince us they have changed are real but I have enjoyed the public relations disaster almost as much as the utter failure to produce a game worth playing. Perhaps that is the real value, the insight into what happens to a product without any actual plan for it. |
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Post by banned on Jun 29, 2014 14:26:15 GMT
...automation of chore is always good... hate chests for the chore of finding them. They also hate chests because they are wondering why tech comes from chests - see earlier discussions re metaphors... exactly. 22cans real problem remains the same from the first day we saw screen shots with gems. Paraphrase, "Um, why are there P2W elements on screen?" and their solution has to date been, "implement work around to shut up PC backers.". It is a fail at best result. They need to either admit they are not making a PC game and write us off or make a PC game and then decide how mobile interacts with it and how to attract casual players, Not make a casual mobile game and then decide how to make PC gamers hate it less. The course to date has no "well done" outcome. |
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Post by banned on Jun 29, 2014 14:32:29 GMT
"we'll cobble a lame work around if there is time." FTFY (sorry, it is how I feel. When 22cans proves itself they'll get respect until then they, and so you are not threatened since reference to an non-person entity is so hard to get I mean the non-person entity not the individual workers, may go leap into vacuum, DIS.) |
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splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jun 29, 2014 16:52:09 GMT
"implement work around to shut up PC backers." Pretty accurate Summarization of their stance towards PC. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jun 29, 2014 19:48:50 GMT
...a difference between a "timer" and things that just take time...the illusion that there is a reason to wait for.... I have not played in a week. Had left full builder lot on the expansion after the one on top of the dormant volcano. It still has 1day 9 hours. I now play 22can's game for the same reason I watched Sharknado twice, "how bad can this be done?". Still not sure if their attempts to convince us they have changed are real, but I have enjoyed the public relations disaster almost as much as the utter failure to produce a game worth playing. Perhaps that is the real value, the insight into what happens to a product without any actual plan for it. I haven't played since late March/early April. I don't feel like reiterating WHY because we've all said it a million times. Not sure why I still hang around, honestly, but it's definitely a mixture of 'train-wreck curiosity' and hopeful optimism. ... 22cans real problem remains the same from the first day we saw screen shots with gems. Paraphrase, "Um, why are there P2W elements on screen?" and their solution has to date been, " implement work around to shut up PC backers.". It is a fail at best result. They need to either admit they are not making a PC game and write us off or make a PC game and then decide how mobile interacts with it and how to attract casual players, Not make a casual mobile game and then decide how to make PC gamers hate it less. The course to date has no "well done" outcome.That last bit is sadly accurate, though they will deny it by pointing out how many like it - completely ignoring the scores of evidence to the contrary. So far, despite all the little 'adjustments' they've made over the last year, I can not justify saying, " Hey, I really love what you've done here! This game is really looking great, I can't wait to play it.". Frankly, I see no reason for me to play it, as the things that annoyed me three months ago haven't really changed - and things that annoyed me six months ago haven't really changed either, yet the things I kind of liked were removed or stripped out 'temporarily taken out to focus on other aspects'. It's such a crazy, strange series of events, that have yet to result in anything close to what they proposed. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jun 29, 2014 20:46:54 GMT
Stickers need work, I'm with you there. I think it's totally valid as a metaphor if you think of Godus as a game that you as a god are entertaining yourself with, like a real-time tabletop game or something, but the way they are delivered does feel too random. I had a few chests spawn too deep in the sea for me to reach, or beneath Settlements I'd already built. Archaeological followers is a good potential solution IMHO, so would be stickers that are generated contextually by your followers. I'm less concerned about them being called "stickers" - they're a just mechanic IMHO - but I understand and recognise the community's desire for the metaphor to be amplified or altered. I should have gotten on this forum ages ago! You're talking my language. Back in March, I kicked off a thread about the whole Upgrade Problem and it goes hand-in-hand with what you are talking about. Here's the pertinent part: I went on to clarify later on, but it's fairly easy to cobble together a system using existing features. For example, a dairy building (similar to a farm) could be built that generates a cheese sticker when its bar fills up and restarts the process. The socialization sticker could be produced by a tavern or town hall building. I could go on and on. The only complaint was that it sounded too much like a city builder and less like a god game, but there's no getting around the need to have villagers produce commodities like tools and cheese themselves if the game is going to make any sense. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jun 29, 2014 23:54:36 GMT
Stickers need work, I'm with you there. I think it's totally valid as a metaphor if you think of Godus as a game that you as a god are entertaining yourself with, like a real-time tabletop game or something, but the way they are delivered does feel too random. I had a few chests spawn too deep in the sea for me to reach, or beneath Settlements I'd already built. Archaeological followers is a good potential solution IMHO, so would be stickers that are generated contextually by your followers. I'm less concerned about them being called "stickers" - they're a just mechanic IMHO - but I understand and recognise the community's desire for the metaphor to be amplified or altered. I should have gotten on this forum ages ago! You're talking my language. Back in March, I kicked off a thread about the whole Upgrade Problem and it goes hand-in-hand with what you are talking about. Here's the pertinent part: I went on to clarify later on, but it's fairly easy to cobble together a system using existing features. For example, a dairy building (similar to a farm) could be built that generates a cheese sticker when its bar fills up and restarts the process. The socialization sticker could be produced by a tavern or town hall building. I could go on and on. The only complaint was that it sounded too much like a city builder and less like a god game, but there's no getting around the need to have villagers produce commodities like tools and cheese themselves if the game is going to make any sense. This forum because it is not directly connected to 22cans or Steam in any way is a completely open arena for both sides to have open and free discussion about the game. We have many backers from 22cans as well as many Steam early Access players and we are also happy to have some members of 22cans like Matthew Allen and Monkeythumbz here. All input is welcome.  |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 1, 2014 5:18:32 GMT
The only complaint was that it sounded too much like a city builder and less like a god game, but there's no getting around the need to have villagers produce commodities like tools and cheese themselves if the game is going to make any sense. Actually the player doesn't have to be the one to place the buildings. In fact I really don't like that aspect of Godus at all. The followers could build for themselves. Whenever something prompts a society to make progress (whatever that may be) the villagers could decide to make a special building such as the ones you described. That building would start producing new stickers that could then be used to unlock new stuff. If the special building gets knocked down for whatever reason the followers will decide to build a new one if it is high up on their priority list. Perhaps some kinds of buildings would require multiple instances depending on the size of the population or the distance of a population group to the existing buildings of that kind. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 1, 2014 5:34:10 GMT
The only complaint was that it sounded too much like a city builder and less like a god game, but there's no getting around the need to have villagers produce commodities like tools and cheese themselves if the game is going to make any sense. Actually the player doesn't have to be the one to place the buildings. In fact I really don't like that aspect of Godus at all. The followers could build for themselves. Whenever something prompts a society to make progress (whatever that may be) the villagers could decide to make a special building such as the ones you described. That building would start producing new stickers that could then be used to unlock new stuff. If the special building gets knocked down for whatever reason the followers will decide to build a new one if it is high up on their priority list. Perhaps some kinds of buildings would require multiple instances depending on the size of the population or the distance of a population group to the existing buildings of that kind. As long as it's not us digging for chests to get a random sticker, I'm fine with it. Implementing a wheel of fortune as the means to progression (which is all clicking a chest is), cheapens the game, eliminates any sort of strategy, and flies in the face of any sort of real world analog. If a player placed the buildings, it opens up the ability for player choice and allows for play styles and strategies. I'd still be okay with the villagers doing it but feel it'd end up just being another roadblock to a player that wants to accomplish a specific goal. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 1, 2014 5:38:10 GMT
As long as it's not us digging for chests to get a random sticker, I'm fine with it. Implementing a wheel of fortune as the means to progression (which is all clicking a chest is), cheapens the game, eliminates any sort of strategy, and flies in the face of any sort of real world analog. If a player placed the buildings, it opens up the ability for player choice and allows for play styles and strategies. I'd still be okay with the villagers doing it but feel it'd end up just being another roadblock to a player that wants to accomplish a specific goal. Not if there are other ways in which you make choices as a god that lead to your followers being able to or wanting to build a certain type of building. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 1, 2014 5:50:12 GMT
As long as it's not us digging for chests to get a random sticker, I'm fine with it. Implementing a wheel of fortune as the means to progression (which is all clicking a chest is), cheapens the game, eliminates any sort of strategy, and flies in the face of any sort of real world analog. If a player placed the buildings, it opens up the ability for player choice and allows for play styles and strategies. I'd still be okay with the villagers doing it but feel it'd end up just being another roadblock to a player that wants to accomplish a specific goal. Not if there are other ways in which you make choices as a god that lead to your followers being able to or wanting to build a certain type of building. True but that would need to be a well-implemented series of things. I've played Majesty and that sort of system tends to end up just being a pain if not done just right. It's more likely that a player would end up fingering buildings until villagers finally put up what was wanted than implement choices that egg the villagers into just building it straight out. Sure, there could be a setup where players choose what buildings to construct but not where, but that'd just make aesthetic design a pain in the rump. Plus, it's easy to see it being frustrating. Imagine playing Sim City where you place roads and an AI places down the zones. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 1, 2014 5:59:12 GMT
We are already supposed to be getting commandments that would influence your followers behaviour, so those could be one factor. Another factor is quite simply the unlocking you do of cards by using the stickers that you are provided with. As long as the tech tree is well thought out and always provides the player multiple options you already come a long way. Then there could be certain god powers that could influence the followers decisions but I don't have any ideas about that at the moment.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jul 7, 2014 17:56:34 GMT
"22Cans Autumn" revision 1:steamcommunity.com/app/232810/discussions/0/46476145571234705/June 7th, Muir says the PC sprint will begin in approximately 3 months. This puts 22Cans Autumn in October. So far 22Cans is only 1 month out of synch with everyone else's calendar. However, we've also been warned that until 22Cans Autumn begins, the PC feedback and development plans won't even be reviewed by the dev team. This is likely to be a fairly long process (or alternatively an extremely swift process, if we're to judge by the apparent time spent considering user feedback in the past). It could realistically be November before any real work begins on PC content and changes. In addition, the team are going to be busy responding to the fallout from the mobile release. It's difficult to believe PC gamers will see anything before Christmas. Ironically, the only diversion from my timeline so far is that I was a little optimistic in predicting the release of mobile updates. Nevermind "intermittent" - I gather there have been none at all.
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