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Post by Crumpy Six on Jun 10, 2014 10:09:37 GMT
Let's make our own development roadmap and compare it to the official version to see whose turns out to be more accurate.
June - August 2014
PC gamers remain pacified that the iPhone app is the core development focus, with a promise that the PC version will be back in scope in Autumn. Mobile releases come out intermittently.
September 2014
People start asking about the upcoming PC development. Suddenly there is uncertainty. Was any design or planning done prior to Autumn, or did 22Cans mean they wouldn't even begin to consider these things until Autumn, and therefore actual game updates won't be released until closer to Christmas? 22Cans' response is ambiguous.
Further updates to the mobile are released and people get pissed off.
October 2014
Still no clear news from 22Cans about what is being done about the PC version. A big mobile update is released and everyone asks how that came about during the PC development phase. 22Cans promise this had been in the works for ages and was just being "polished up" and definitely didn't distract anyone from the very important PC work they're doing.
November 2014
The community is increasingly demanding for news about what exactly is being done. Some information is released but the proposed content doesn't seem to be supported by any of the community suggestions. The "Top 3 things you want for the PC" thread is dragged up on the Steam forum.
December 2014
A PC update is finally released! Stickers still abound. 22Cans came up with a hybrid solution whereby followers do some vaguely resource-related activities and this generates stickers. They call this resource gathering. Still no dynamic water, creatures, ecosystems, game objective. There are now additional ages but the ages are all mechanically very similar. The update is riddled with more bugs than ever before, and it's clear that 22Cans were probably busy doing other things and weren't particularly able to devote time to it.
January 2015
22Cans focus returns to the mobile version. PC updates become less frequent than ever because now the PC version has been changed in a few fundamental ways, core mobile changes won't apply. Community is ineffectually furious. 22Cans promises they're just doing a few key things for the mobile version and they'll be back with the PC version later in Spring. 22Cans reduces user interactivity on the new 22Cans forum because cleaning up negative posts is too much effort. It becomes a system where only pre-vetted posts are published.
February 2015
George leaves 22Cans. The PC version hasn't been touched since the emergency hotfix released a week after the December update. Silence from 22Cans.
Spring/Summer 2015
One of two things: either Godus is commercially successful on mobile and the plug is pulled on the PC version, which has become a millstone round 22Cans neck, or Godus is not a commercial success and 22Cans winds up.
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Unfortunately we're still in the "waiting for Autumn" stage of my roadmap so we won't be able to measure its accuracy until later this year. I have based my estimations on 22Cans conduct and output over the last 12 months. It's difficult to measure the impact of events like George joining the community team, but as he's community relations rather than development/production I don't expect he'll be having much influence over game content and release dates.
This is currently very pessimistic (or arguably optimistic, if you think bankrupty/ditching PC version will happen before Summer 2015!) which is also based on the Godus experience from the perspective of a PC user since the October release which is when I bought the game. If anyone believes 22Cans will deliver above and beyond what I've suggested I'd be interested to hear the reasons for their confidence.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 10, 2014 10:36:15 GMT
That roadmap actually doesn't sound implausible at all. I'd love to see how that turns out.
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Post by engarde on Jun 10, 2014 10:49:00 GMT
I'm sure that is the current roadmap... with a few year numbers changed
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World Stroking Simulator 2014™
Master
Oh hey, Godus, that was a thing. Yeah. *shakes head*
Posts: 143 
Pledge level: Peter Molyneux's retirement fund
I like: Indy games. Also decent studio games.
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Post by World Stroking Simulator 2014™ on Jun 11, 2014 14:15:17 GMT
July 2014
Peter gets naked. Shit gets real.
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Post by Qetesh on Jun 11, 2014 15:58:50 GMT
You really put a lot of tlc and time into this. Thanks for that!
I tend to try to be at the "wait and see" point again for now, but this being said I doubt the game will ever be what I had hoped for. Will it get somewhat fixed and turn into a good game for those more middle of road? Maybe. Will it be a game Ba'al loves? Doubtful, he is very old school classic game loving type of dude. I would still probably play it if they made it a fun F2p but I would still forever be disappointed by not getting the Populous re-imagination that I had thought it was going to be. I am pretty sure those stickers are not going anywhere and I just don't like them. I don't like the collection of belief at all or any other "chores" that fall into the average F2p.
I would say perhaps someday PM will sell the rights to Godus to someone else that will make a true classic non F2p that many of us have been craving. That would be a great thing, to see on a Roadmap.
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Post by julians on Jun 12, 2014 13:29:41 GMT
There's still other limited access markets to be released to. Denmark and Philipines or some such. And then there's an 'official' mobile release (for US) and then some time after that UK release. And then we'll see about that PC version  |
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splitterwind
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Post by splitterwind on Jun 12, 2014 15:05:46 GMT
Sounds very plausible.
How likely is it that a greedy company will focus on a software that will most likely not be profitable any more? And how likely is it that a company will break it's promises again after they broke almost every previous promise and shown to be willing to lie for more profit?
But there is nothing else to do than waiting.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jun 12, 2014 21:10:56 GMT
When it first became clear that Godus was going to be geared towards the mobile, my first thought was that the 22Cans shareholders (other than PM, who I don't think is very financially astute) were hoping to build up the brand, get the company listed then sell their shares for a massive profit. At this stage the company appears to an outsider to be in a complete mess, so I don't see this kind of strategy being pulled out of the bag any time soon.
PM selling the company to someone who knows what to do with it could actually save Godus and 22Cans, though I don't think it would have any PC-oriented bidders. Best case scenario it would get picked up by an experienced mobile game studio and turned into a proper mobile app. You know, one that works and doesn't routinely steal people's money... Not my preferred outcome but the PC version has masses of baggage and no one in their right mind would go near it.
I didn't include much about the mobile release in my timeline because I don't really care about it at all. I'm hoping the two builds diverge from each other at the soonest possible moment (including the PC version being deconstructed and reconstructed to properly remove the P2W elements), although that does raise the question of whether both games can really be considered a single product. In my mind they can't, which is why in reality I don't believe the PC version will be anything other than a lazily hacked-apart edition of whatever the current mobile build is.
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Post by Qetesh on Jun 12, 2014 21:32:43 GMT
When it first became clear that Godus was going to be geared towards the mobile, my first thought was that the 22Cans shareholders (other than PM, who I don't think is very financially astute) were hoping to build up the brand, get the company listed then sell their shares for a massive profit. At this stage the company appears to an outsider to be in a complete mess, so I don't see this kind of strategy being pulled out of the bag any time soon. PM selling the company to someone who knows what to do with it could actually save Godus and 22Cans, though I don't think it would have any PC-oriented bidders. Best case scenario it would get picked up by an experienced mobile game studio and turned into a proper mobile app. You know, one that works and doesn't routinely steal people's money... Not my preferred outcome but the PC version has masses of baggage and no one in their right mind would go near it. I didn't include much about the mobile release in my timeline because I don't really care about it at all. I'm hoping the two builds diverge from each other at the soonest possible moment (including the PC version being deconstructed and reconstructed to properly remove the P2W elements), although that does raise the question of whether both games can really be considered a single product. In my mind they can't, which is why in reality I don't believe the PC version will be anything other than a lazily hacked-apart edition of whatever the current mobile build is. I think you might be right at this point. This is somewhat similar to what happened with SG. The SGU debacle caused so much bad connotations with the entire franchise that nobody wanted to touch the TV series with a ten foot pole. The only way for Godus to become a PC success at this point is to have them fix it themselves and become a huge success to outweigh the strife or to be lucky enough to find some bored huge lottery winner that was once a backer and wants to fix the whole thing themselves without PM involved anywhere near it. This is pretty much actually how SG is coming back alive without those that screwed the goose with SGU and going back to it's roots of the original. |
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jun 19, 2014 15:16:30 GMT
We're still in the first month of my roadmap, but this has got me wondering something. 22Cans have openly admitted they're working on the mobile version, and other than sporadic Opt-In build releases, the PC version is going to be stagnant until 'Autumn' (which as noted, is a bit of an open concept). If we say, for the sake of argument, that the PC version was last given a proper update in March and that Autumn is September (and I say "for the sake of argument" because the March update was actually to implement mobile-centric features), is it really acceptable for an Early Access game to be neglected for a full six months?
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Post by engarde on Jun 19, 2014 15:31:56 GMT
I think it depends on what you consider they mean when they say focus. I'm choosing to see the when we switch back to pc statement as meaning both optin and non-optin will get bug fixes but no new shiny show stopper features (settlement changes aside).
But all the new shiny ideas etc will be mobile centric, whatever that might mean in terms of introducing those changes to the PC base too, so I'd hope that new shiny mobile feature 1 might be only on mobile but new shiny mobile feature 2 might be across the platforms so optin and non-optin PC would get it too.
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splitterwind
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Post by splitterwind on Jun 19, 2014 18:23:54 GMT
I think it depends on what you consider they mean when they say focus. I believe that they will implement things that make irrational and obnoxious mechanics more tolerable or skipable. An antidote to their own poison. Something that can be easily sold to the mobile audience, we will get it for free in small doses. Than they will pretend that its done based on our feedback instead of being designed to maximize profit. It will make the PC game more enjoyable or tolerable but it won't make it a decent PC game. |
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Post by banned on Jun 23, 2014 3:49:31 GMT
I think it depends on what you consider they mean when they say focus. I believe that they will implement things that make irrational and obnoxious mechanics more tolerable or skipable. An antidote to their own poison. Something that can be easily sold to the mobile audience, we will get it for free in small doses. Than they will pretend that its done based on our feedback instead of being designed to maximize profit. It will make the PC game more enjoyable or tolerable but it won't make it a decent PC game. This is the most likely outcome. |
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jun 23, 2014 6:38:27 GMT
We're already seeing this with the various shrines. monuments and statues that are being introduced. The go-to solution for every problem! I wonder if anyone at 22Cans actually plays Godus for fun, rather than in a testing capacity? I find it very frustrating that they seem completely unable to put themselves in the mindframe of a normal user.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 23, 2014 14:12:04 GMT
We're already seeing this with the various shrines. monuments and statues that are being introduced. The go-to solution for every problem! I wonder if anyone at 22Cans actually plays Godus for fun, rather than in a testing capacity? I find it very frustrating that they seem completely unable to put themselves in the mindframe of a normal user. I am! 46 hours in so far on the regular v2.0.5 build and am genuinely enjoying the experience, especially for a game that's in an unfinished state. Not mentioning any titles, but I've had way less fun with games I've worked on that a re further into their development than Godus. |
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Post by engarde on Jun 23, 2014 14:14:59 GMT
Maybe our playing with it longer than you shades our enjoyment.
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Post by banned on Jun 24, 2014 2:37:11 GMT
We're already seeing this with the various shrines. monuments and statues that are being introduced. The go-to solution for every problem! I wonder if anyone at 22Cans actually plays Godus for fun, rather than in a testing capacity? I find it very frustrating that they seem completely unable to put themselves in the mindframe of a normal user. I am! 46 hours in so far on the regular v2.0.5 build and am genuinely enjoying the experience, especially for a game that's in an unfinished state. Not mentioning any titles, but I've had way less fun with games I've worked on that a re further into their development than Godus. Can you, honestly, state you think it is a PC game and not a casual mobile game? |
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Jun 24, 2014 13:08:28 GMT
We're already seeing this with the various shrines. monuments and statues that are being introduced. The go-to solution for every problem! I wonder if anyone at 22Cans actually plays Godus for fun, rather than in a testing capacity? I find it very frustrating that they seem completely unable to put themselves in the mindframe of a normal user. I am! 46 hours in so far on the regular v2.0.5 build and am genuinely enjoying the experience, especially for a game that's in an unfinished state. Not mentioning any titles, but I've had way less fun with games I've worked on that a re further into their development than Godus. Genuinely enjoying the experience? Right on for you, but I do find that a bit odd. So, I'll re-ask a question that was never answered - Of the main criticisms of this game (tedious belief collection, lack of meaningful choices/consequences, voyages being out of place, damn near everything about stickers, etc.) which do you actually agree with? Which do you disagree with? And of those you disagree with, do you find it odd that so many independent, outside, let's say 'objective' sources have the same criticisms? Also, do you, personally, find it odd that you happen to be genuinely enjoying the Godus experience when I think it's fair to say the vast majority of players do not at all enjoy it? |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 24, 2014 14:08:49 GMT
Of the main criticisms of this game (tedious belief collection, lack of meaningful choices/consequences, voyages being out of place, damn near everything about stickers, etc.) which do you actually agree with? Which do you disagree with? And of those you disagree with, do you find it odd that so many independent, outside, let's say 'objective' sources have the same criticisms? Also, do you, personally, find it odd that you happen to be genuinely enjoying the Godus experience when I think it's fair to say the vast majority of players do not at all enjoy it? I like collecting Belief - you probably don't believe me, but most of my population is in Settlements so it's not a big chore collecting a few big bubbles every so often, plus I like the dragging mechanic and the tune you get when chaining collection. That said, I also like the idea of manual collection being something that's relegated to the early stages of the game as both you and your followers become more advanced. Lack of meaningful choices/consequences is something we will be implementing with both Commandments (which allows for more shades of grey than usual good/evil morality mechanics) and Happiness (which I know you all think is a F2P mechanic so I suppose all I can do is wait for your feedback once it's been implemented into the game and you've had a chance to play with it for yourselves). I flipping love Voyages - even other people at the studio think it's weird how much I love them. I think they're great, especially that tune! Really, really fun - one of the best mini-games I can recall (when compared to stuff like connecting pipes in BioShock or lock-picking in Assassin's Creed 3, for example). Stickers need work, I'm with you there. I think it's totally valid as a metaphor if you think of Godus as a game that you as a god are entertaining yourself with, like a real-time tabletop game or something, but the way they are delivered does feel too random. I had a few chests spawn too deep in the sea for me to reach, or beneath Settlements I'd already built. Archaeological followers is a good potential solution IMHO, so would be stickers that are generated contextually by your followers. I'm less concerned about them being called "stickers" - they're a just mechanic IMHO - but I understand and recognise the community's desire for the metaphor to be amplified or altered. Also, I don't think that the "vast majority" of players don't like the game, even in its current state. A significant number do for sure, but please don't mistake the number of people who post online for the entirety of the game's player-base. Firstly, people tend to be more motivated to speak up when they have a complaint than when they have a compliment. Secondly, while the reviews (both on Steam and professional) are totally legitimate as we're selling a product, the game is still a work-in-progress and we've every intention on making improvements, both large and small. Lastly, I do frequently receive positive comments on Facebook, Twitter, Reddit etc. and a few more via e-mail. That said, I'm not complacent and when i report community activity, I tend to focus on the negative rather than the positive so as to spur our motivation to address existing concerns. I like Godus because it's a largely stress-free, soothing experience. I don't feel any pressure when playing it and I can either play it for 15 mins and have an impact or for a couple of hours without getting bored. Looking forward to seeing more Ages though, I wanna see my Followers evolve and get them into space! |
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Jun 24, 2014 14:38:09 GMT
Well that's interesting. To me, Voyages seem out of place in the game. I wouldn't say I dislike them, but I also wouldn't say I like them. They're inconsequential. A Lemmings-like mini-game that has nothing to do with a god game. Maybe if it reflected your civilization in some way - start out in wooden/reed canoes, progress to longboats, then later on in galleys or whatever. Kind of doesn't matter since it isn't actually about the ship at all, or voyaging, really. Just a set of mini-maps, and getting followers from point a to b, for stickers. I actually liked the pipes in Bioshock, though. Not so much the lock-picking in AC3, that was awful.
I do think 'vast majority' is an accurate statement, though. Clearly the game is not done and shouldn't be judged as a finished product. But it would be silly to ignore the negative reception the game has gotten, almost from the get-go, on kickstarter, steam, press, wherever. And objectively, we can look at the Steam Charts numbers as an indicator of it's player base, not to mention the position on the 'top sellers' list. Neither of which show the game in a good light, to say the least.
True point that people tend to speak up with complaints rather than praise in general, but equally true point that many people don't say anything at all, and just forget about the game entirely. I think at the very least what's interesting in Godus's case is, a fair percentage of people who post about the game in a negative light (I'd include myself in this group) genuinely want to see the game improve.
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