splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149 
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jun 30, 2014 18:16:44 GMT
Because there have never been games that were appealing to a broad audience including inexperienced and experienced players.
Many WoW players were probably casual players once. Easy to learn hard to master is the mantra of Blizzard. The Sims can be enjoyed by both even though its more oriented towards casual. Nintendo games are also enjoyed by both casual and core gamers. Whats more impressive these games do not even have a difficulty setting.
Just like there aren't any F2P games that treat their customers in a fair way...
So, basically Godus.
He said something similar on another interview and the journalist immediately mentioned league of legends and team fortress.
Godus will surely not be known as a paragon F2P game with a particularly fair monetization model, at least not without making it a completely different game.
That games exist that only appeal to one group isn't a bad thing either as he tries to paint it. Sometimes people just want to play something mind changeling or want competition and sometimes they just want to play a game that doesn't require their full attention or rather focuses on atmosphere or story than challenging mechanics.
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Post by rubgish on Jun 30, 2014 18:32:30 GMT
We all know Peter always had big ideas and wanted to do so many things, to the extent that sometimes the games made were fantastic and new (e.g. black and white), and other times they were pretty much flops. Right now, he doesn't have a distributor telling him he has to do XYZ ready for release at a fixed date, because he's now in total control. This means that he's going to be trying even more than ever to get new innovative things in the game. Combine this with the fact that there is a lot more computing power available now, so there are more things that seem like they /could/ work out, and what you have is that once the game is done, it's most likely either going to be absolutely fantastic or pretty much crap. Basically it'll be either be like black & white when it was released (i.e. fantastic, new, ground breaking), or like spore when it was released (disappointing, short, tried to do too much).
In my opinion, the longer time until release, then the greater the chance that it'll be fantastic rather than shitty. I just hope that they can fix all the issues and really get focused on enhancing the gameplay once all the core stuff is sorted and out of the way.
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Post by greay on Jun 30, 2014 18:34:55 GMT
I think Peter is referring to the concept of the end product that we're still working towards, rather than Godus as it exists right now on PC. There's 2 main points he's talking about here. One is the casual/hardcore, mobile/PC division. His (your) vision for Godus is to eliminate or blend that distinction, which is interesting. We certainly can't see how that's going to work now, but you still have a long ways to go. The second point is (mobile) free-to-play. "..the free-to-play mechanic, which should be the most brilliant innovation for people to play for a game, is being abused. They monetize addiction." From all reports we've had from the mobile soft launch, Godus on mobile uses pretty much exactly the same F2P mechanics that are so despised. And a longstanding concern with the kickstarter backers and early access players is these same mechanics have seeped into & tainted the PC game. If Godus is meant to be different, how? |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 30, 2014 18:44:16 GMT
We all know Peter always had big ideas and wanted to do so many things, to the extent that sometimes the games made were fantastic and new (e.g. black and white), and other times they were pretty much flops. Right now, he doesn't have a distributor telling him he has to do XYZ ready for release at a fixed date, because he's now in total control. This means that he's going to be trying even more than ever to get new innovative things in the game. Combine this with the fact that there is a lot more computing power available now, so there are more things that seem like they /could/ work out, and what you have is that once the game is done, it's most likely either going to be absolutely fantastic or pretty much crap. Basically it'll be either be like black & white when it was released (i.e. fantastic, new, ground breaking), or like spore when it was released (disappointing, short, tried to do too much). In my opinion, the longer time until release, then the greater the chance that it'll be fantastic rather than shitty. I just hope that they can fix all the issues and really get focused on enhancing the gameplay once all the core stuff is sorted and out of the way. Yes, I agree. I mean, this is basically the reasoning behind why I joined 22cans, having worked on many publisher constricted projects previously. It's a gamble, but one I'm hoping will pay off in spades. Time, as you say, will tell. I think Peter is referring to the concept of the end product that we're still working towards, rather than Godus as it exists right now on PC. There's 2 main points he's talking about here. One is the casual/hardcore, mobile/PC division. His (your) vision for Godus is to eliminate or blend that distinction, which is interesting. We certainly can't see how that's going to work now, but you still have a long ways to go. The second point is (mobile) free-to-play. "..the free-to-play mechanic, which should be the most brilliant innovation for people to play for a game, is being abused. They monetize addiction." From all reports we've had from the mobile soft launch, Godus on mobile uses pretty much exactly the same F2P mechanics that are so despised. And a longstanding concern with the kickstarter backers and early access players is these same mechanics have seeped into & tainted the PC game. If Godus is meant to be different, how? I've just spoken to Pater and he's agreed to speak at length about what exactly makes Godus (one of) the most ethical F2P games on mobile at or just after the launch of the game on iOS worldwide. |
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Post by rubgish on Jun 30, 2014 18:50:54 GMT
We all know Peter always had big ideas and wanted to do so many things, to the extent that sometimes the games made were fantastic and new (e.g. black and white), and other times they were pretty much flops. Right now, he doesn't have a distributor telling him he has to do XYZ ready for release at a fixed date, because he's now in total control. This means that he's going to be trying even more than ever to get new innovative things in the game. Combine this with the fact that there is a lot more computing power available now, so there are more things that seem like they /could/ work out, and what you have is that once the game is done, it's most likely either going to be absolutely fantastic or pretty much crap. Basically it'll be either be like black & white when it was released (i.e. fantastic, new, ground breaking), or like spore when it was released (disappointing, short, tried to do too much). In my opinion, the longer time until release, then the greater the chance that it'll be fantastic rather than shitty. I just hope that they can fix all the issues and really get focused on enhancing the gameplay once all the core stuff is sorted and out of the way. Yes, I agree. I mean, this is basically the reasoning behind why I joined 22cans, having worked on many publisher constricted projects previously. It's a gamble, but one I'm hoping will pay off in spades. Time, as you say, will tell. There's 2 main points he's talking about here. One is the casual/hardcore, mobile/PC division. His (your) vision for Godus is to eliminate or blend that distinction, which is interesting. We certainly can't see how that's going to work now, but you still have a long ways to go. The second point is (mobile) free-to-play. "..the free-to-play mechanic, which should be the most brilliant innovation for people to play for a game, is being abused. They monetize addiction." From all reports we've had from the mobile soft launch, Godus on mobile uses pretty much exactly the same F2P mechanics that are so despised. And a longstanding concern with the kickstarter backers and early access players is these same mechanics have seeped into & tainted the PC game. If Godus is meant to be different, how? I've just spoken to Pater and he's agreed to speak at length about what exactly makes Godus (one of) the most ethical F2P games on mobile at or just after the launch of the game on iOS worldwide. Don't suppose you have a sneaky date for the iOS worldwide launch do you?  |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 30, 2014 18:53:24 GMT
Looking forward to Peter's speech, but I suggest you assemble a team of PR experts to scrutinize his speech before he makes it. And even then you might want to run the proposed speech by some community members before he makes it so they can point out the areas that are likely to enrage the general public. Because I don't think there has been a single speech by Peter yet that hasn't thrown people into a fit.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 30, 2014 19:22:32 GMT
Looking forward to Peter's speech, but I suggest you assemble a team of PR experts to scrutinize his speech before he makes it. And even then you might want to run the proposed speech by some community members before he makes it so they can point out the areas that are likely to enrage the general public. Because I don't think there has been a single speech by Peter yet that hasn't thrown people into a fit. Not a bad idea and something I can easily do via YouTube. Should def be possible. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 30, 2014 19:23:07 GMT
Don't suppose you have a sneaky date for the iOS worldwide launch do you?  |
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Post by hardly on Jun 30, 2014 19:38:51 GMT
We all know Peter always had big ideas and wanted to do so many things, to the extent that sometimes the games made were fantastic and new (e.g. black and white), and other times they were pretty much flops. Right now, he doesn't have a distributor telling him he has to do XYZ ready for release at a fixed date, because he's now in total control. This means that he's going to be trying even more than ever to get new innovative things in the game. Combine this with the fact that there is a lot more computing power available now, so there are more things that seem like they /could/ work out, and what you have is that once the game is done, it's most likely either going to be absolutely fantastic or pretty much crap. Basically it'll be either be like black & white when it was released (i.e. fantastic, new, ground breaking), or like spore when it was released (disappointing, short, tried to do too much). In my opinion, the longer time until release, then the greater the chance that it'll be fantastic rather than shitty. I just hope that they can fix all the issues and really get focused on enhancing the gameplay once all the core stuff is sorted and out of the way. Yes, I agree. I mean, this is basically the reasoning behind why I joined 22cans, having worked on many publisher constricted projects previously. It's a gamble, but one I'm hoping will pay off in spades. Time, as you say, will tell. There's 2 main points he's talking about here. One is the casual/hardcore, mobile/PC division. His (your) vision for Godus is to eliminate or blend that distinction, which is interesting. We certainly can't see how that's going to work now, but you still have a long ways to go. The second point is (mobile) free-to-play. "..the free-to-play mechanic, which should be the most brilliant innovation for people to play for a game, is being abused. They monetize addiction." From all reports we've had from the mobile soft launch, Godus on mobile uses pretty much exactly the same F2P mechanics that are so despised. And a longstanding concern with the kickstarter backers and early access players is these same mechanics have seeped into & tainted the PC game. If Godus is meant to be different, how? I've just spoken to Pater and he's agreed to speak at length about what exactly makes Godus (one of) the most ethical F2P games on mobile at or just after the launch of the game on iOS worldwide. Is one of those reasons the fact that the current New Zealand test release is broken and can wipe progress? Or the fact that there is no warning on iOS that the game is a beta? Or that you will be quite slow in patching the game (how long has it been since last iOS patch?) Sorry that was bitchy but I couldn't resist. GODUS is a slow motion train wreck and I for one and just here to witness its demise. I actually feel sad for Peter for sinking his money into this project but I feel more sorry for the people taken in by his lies during the kickstarter campaign. Personally I think he's hiding behind his vs idiom, regardless of whether or no the vision is right, I don't think 22Cans have the coding/design chops to pull it off. If I'm wrong in all this I will apologise but it's how I see things. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 30, 2014 19:41:51 GMT
Looking forward to Peter's speech, but I suggest you assemble a team of PR experts to scrutinize his speech before he makes it. And even then you might want to run the proposed speech by some community members before he makes it so they can point out the areas that are likely to enrage the general public. Because I don't think there has been a single speech by Peter yet that hasn't thrown people into a fit. Not a bad idea and something I can easily do via YouTube. Should def be possible. Wouldn't putting it on youtube be counterproductive? |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 19:43:17 GMT
We all know Peter always had big ideas and wanted to do so many things, to the extent that sometimes the games made were fantastic and new (e.g. black and white), and other times they were pretty much flops. Right now, he doesn't have a distributor telling him he has to do XYZ ready for release at a fixed date, because he's now in total control. This means that he's going to be trying even more than ever to get new innovative things in the game. Combine this with the fact that there is a lot more computing power available now, so there are more things that seem like they /could/ work out, and what you have is that once the game is done, it's most likely either going to be absolutely fantastic or pretty much crap. Basically it'll be either be like black & white when it was released (i.e. fantastic, new, ground breaking), or like spore when it was released (disappointing, short, tried to do too much). In my opinion, the longer time until release, then the greater the chance that it'll be fantastic rather than shitty. I just hope that they can fix all the issues and really get focused on enhancing the gameplay once all the core stuff is sorted and out of the way. Yes, I agree. I mean, this is basically the reasoning behind why I joined 22cans, having worked on many publisher constricted projects previously. It's a gamble, but one I'm hoping will pay off in spades. Time, as you say, will tell. There's 2 main points he's talking about here. One is the casual/hardcore, mobile/PC division. His (your) vision for Godus is to eliminate or blend that distinction, which is interesting. We certainly can't see how that's going to work now, but you still have a long ways to go. The second point is (mobile) free-to-play. "..the free-to-play mechanic, which should be the most brilliant innovation for people to play for a game, is being abused. They monetize addiction." From all reports we've had from the mobile soft launch, Godus on mobile uses pretty much exactly the same F2P mechanics that are so despised. And a longstanding concern with the kickstarter backers and early access players is these same mechanics have seeped into & tainted the PC game. If Godus is meant to be different, how? I've just spoken to Pater and he's agreed to speak at length about what exactly makes Godus (one of) the most ethical F2P games on mobile at or just after the launch of the game on iOS worldwide. No, please speak again with him and tell him to write down his thoughts, then let him read them, let him think again, and let him correct them - don't let him speak, we will only get another video Peter pondering about a delicious zen like experience, the dawn of a new are with the regenesis of invest to play god games and nothing concrete. Please i love to hear that he wants to explain the game, but no speech, no video, text is enough (a litte bit more text than goes on a post it). |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 30, 2014 20:14:04 GMT
Wouldn't putting it on youtube be counterproductive? I could share direct links... No, please speak again with him and tell him to write down his thoughts, then let him read them, let him think again, and let him correct them - don't let him speak, we will only get another video Peter pondering about a delicious zen like experience, the dawn of a new are with the regenesis of invest to play god games and nothing concrete. Please i love to hear that he wants to explain the game, but no speech, no video, text is enough (a litte bit more text than goes on a post it). ...FINE. |
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Post by Danjal on Jun 30, 2014 20:33:08 GMT
Long story short - Peter wants the dedication and willingness to put time, money and effort into a game as is prominent with some of the most popular PC titles. And he wants to bring that into a world primarily dominated by zero threshold free mobile titles. He wants the massive audience of the mobile crowd, while retaining the nature of PC and console gamers - creating a breed of gamers that both spans all ages, genders and interests. While still having more than a 5% 'whale' section that pays for your game. The problem with that is that the investment in PC games comes partly from the fact that the game isn't *free*. By paying €10~50 for a game you're already partially invested. But this forms a threshold for people to enter. This is why F2P MMO's work so well, because literally everyone can get in and try them. However F2P MMO's aren't mobile games (and most F2P MMO's also look at a large audience of non-paying players). Mobile games are often (I'm talking about the 1000 or more failures for every successful Candy Crush) only functional because they are free and running off of advertisement. Its something you install on a whim, you have no investment, no reason to stick around. And unless the game offers you something to stick around, the majority of people that install them will just as quickly and easily remove them. Something that as of yet, Godus does not really offer. We're practically looking at Fungus Simulator still, perhaps with a dash of mario party minigames planned in the future. Funnily enough, I think that's part of our vision for Godus (on mobile, at least). The beach is not somewhere I would want to play video games at, but that is just me. I also would never even take a Kindle to the beach. The blowing sand and sea water in the air does not seem to be very good for electronic devices. Maybe if they were hella cheaper and it did not matter if they got ruined but for me a beach is best with a good old fashioned paperbook, it is gets ruined, I get put out by less than 10 bucks. I can read a few pages, flip over and put down book. Flip back when I want and read a few more and there is nothing making me read the book accept my desire to do so. Mobile Video games for me are for trains, waiting for appointments and killing time when needed. A console or PC game is something that is done when at home and I feel like playing a game. Wait what? Play a game on the beach? The risk of damaging your hardware aside, you *can not* play on the beach, the glare of the sun alone would make it impossible to look at your screen and see a thing. Now perhaps sitting at a "bar" or similar, you can grab some shade and drink a nice beer or whatnot. But then still, thats the kind of thing most people do with friends - not alone. So its kind of counter-intuitive. Perhaps more importantly - why are you trying to market your product to people who aren't inherently interested in your product? It'd be like taking any sports event, and focus marketing on groups of people that don't care about sports, in the hopes that you can add them to your existing audience? There are conflicting interests and priorities here. Sure someone who might go to a bar with friends might also be a gamer - but that doesn't mean he or she will go play games *WHILE* out drinking with friends... If I might pose a suggestion - stop spreading yourself thin. Pick one (or a few) audiences you know are going to be interested in your title and start there. Don't overreach (again) and try to take on the world, but shrink down to a manageable audience you KNOW you can reach. Don't market soccer to people who are not interested in soccer. Don't try to sell peanuts to people looking to buy oranges. Don't force a lifelong subscription onto someone that just wants a single magazine. While soccer, peanuts and lifelong subscriptions are good in their own right - not everyone is going to be interested in them. The argument "But peanuts are good!" does not change that... Just because there are good/enjoyable mobile games doesn't mean that everyone should (or will) play and pay for mobile games. Nor does it mean that these games will be played outside of their original window - the virtue of a mobile game is that its played in those odd little gaps. Something designed to be played during breaks and other 5~15 minute gaps isn't suddenly going to leave beyond those borders. Know yourself - and know your own limitations. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jun 30, 2014 20:45:34 GMT
Looking forward to Peter's speech, but I suggest you assemble a team of PR experts to scrutinize his speech before he makes it. And even then you might want to run the proposed speech by some community members before he makes it so they can point out the areas that are likely to enrage the general public. Because I don't think there has been a single speech by Peter yet that hasn't thrown people into a fit. Not a bad idea and something I can easily do via YouTube. Should def be possible. To save time, omit any mentions of his reputation for over-promising or "I may sound crazy" sections. We've heard them to death, they have no real impact, and they are the fastest way to garner rage posts. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jun 30, 2014 20:49:42 GMT
I will even go farther and mention that there is a reason that when you have heart condition or a brain tumor you don't just go to your primary care doctor, you go to a cardiologist or a neurologist. You go to see a specialist because another word for general such as general practictioner, could be watered down. Ask any PC Doc if he can help you with your liver problems or vascular irregularities and they will point you to a specialist. Specialists are where you will get the best service or product because it allows the manufacturer or provider to concentrate all their resources and bank account into perfecting one thing and not multiple arenas. It would be an amazing thing to have doctors that could just do it all equally well, but it is not realistic and this is something I don't see a company as small as 22cans being able to do and maybe not even as large as EA, Blizzard or Ubisoft. I personally like specialists in any field. I think it is more dedicated to the patron and less like just one of the identical massive herd.
Quality over quantity is the way to go.
Another way to look at it, is don't bite off more than you can chew until you have the teeth and jaw strength for it. It is like when you learn to type. You are taught to go as slow as needed but get the keystokes all right, once you master that aspect you can move forward to push into being accurate and fast. If you try to jump on a keyboard from scratch and type 90 wpm with no errors you will fail. If you learn your keys, master them and then go back and build up your speed, you can reach that point eventually. 22cans really should not even being thinking about multi-platform until they master one of them.
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Post by hardly on Jun 30, 2014 20:57:14 GMT
While we are talking about successful and ethical F2P can we all please take a minute to observe that Valve have raised about $40m through the DOTA2 compendium, over $10m of which is going to the TI4 prizepool. Profitable, FTP (with no crucifixion), ethical and delivering what their player base want. It enrages me when Peter pretends nobody has done FTP well when several games have. DOTA for me is a stand out because it is truly free, no content behind paywalls (except cosmetics). By the way I've spent probably $50-$60 on this free game and I don't mind one bit.
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Post by Qetesh on Jun 30, 2014 21:07:20 GMT
While we are talking about successful and ethical F2P can we all please take a minute to observe that Valve have raised about $40m through the DOTA2 compendium, over $10m of which is going to the TI4 prizepool. Profitable, FTP (with no crucifixion), ethical and delivering what their player base want. It enrages me when Peter pretends nobody has done FTP well when several games have. DOTA for me is a stand out because it is truly free, no content behind paywalls (except cosmetics). By the way I've spent probably $50-$60 on this free game and I don't mind one bit. I don't have any issue with F2p being made. I just never would have backed Godus if I had known it was to be one. I also think that it should be on Steam listed as a F2p and not being sold as a PC game that is going to have a Invest to Play mobile version. If you make a good F2p and it is fun and you like those games, then you deserve to have good games in that arena too. My fingers are still crossed and I am still in the time will tell mantra for a PC game at some point in the future. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jun 30, 2014 21:30:44 GMT
I've just spoken to Pater and he's agreed to speak at length about what exactly makes Godus (one of) the most ethical F2P games on mobile at or just after the launch of the game on iOS worldwide. No thank you. I used to think Peter might be an interesting fellow after learning about the ridiculous ambition of the familiar AI in Black & White, but I've come to realize that while he may very well be, it's for all the wrong reasons. He speaks in intents and grand designs that rarely resemble what comes about. Overall, you're much better off simply ignoring what he has to say and trying the end product, otherwise you'll be expecting something entirely different from what you find. Unfortunately, for some absurd reason, I decided to toss myself into one of his game's development even despite what I'd read elsewhere, and I can easily see why people get upset with him. He's a designer, not an engineer or a programmer, he's even admitted before that Populous was something of a happy accident from not knowing how to program very well. Designers, by their very nature I'd say, are inclined to think on the larger scale of how a project will be, but not always how to realize it. However, with any degree of experience, they'll sort out how to realize it and know where to make limitations into creative boons or where to simply cut what cannot be done well. As far as I can tell, Peter has a hard time of knowing where to cut elements, so much so that they remain in his mind even if they aren't actualized in the product itself. Even ignoring that common criticism of him, the other problem is in how you've phrased yourself there. It screams more of Peter than you, I'd say, with the whole "what exactly makes Godus (one of) the most ethical F2P games on mobile" line. That's typical of his manner of speaking about his work, it's always the most something, even if it's really not and he won't admit it until he's done nurturing his child to maturity, then it's outta the house with it. Yeah, I'm sorry guys, I really messed that up, I thought I was teaching it the right things, giving it the proper attention, but you know, your child's got a life of its own and you can't make it the best ever no matter how hard you try without ruining it. Just saying, it's par for the course. Peter's a great storyteller, a great architect, but he's a mediocre at best writer and builder, largely because everything that comes after pales in comparison to what was told or designed. |
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Post by bed on Jun 30, 2014 21:47:21 GMT
I read this article just shaking my head.
But I for one, would like to know what this means " “in crisis” just 36 hours ago." actually means... what was the crisis and why?
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Post by greay on Jun 30, 2014 23:06:19 GMT
There's 2 main points he's talking about here. One is the casual/hardcore, mobile/PC division. His (your) vision for Godus is to eliminate or blend that distinction, which is interesting. We certainly can't see how that's going to work now, but you still have a long ways to go. The second point is (mobile) free-to-play. "..the free-to-play mechanic, which should be the most brilliant innovation for people to play for a game, is being abused. They monetize addiction." From all reports we've had from the mobile soft launch, Godus on mobile uses pretty much exactly the same F2P mechanics that are so despised. And a longstanding concern with the kickstarter backers and early access players is these same mechanics have seeped into & tainted the PC game. If Godus is meant to be different, how? I've just spoken to Pater and he's agreed to speak at length about what exactly makes Godus (one of) the most ethical F2P games on mobile at or just after the launch of the game on iOS worldwide. That would be great! I'm not so interested in the ethical question – it's far easier to make a case for one or the other than I think is generally useful. More interested in how he (and the whole team) think that this implementation is different from traditional F2P models. I don't see it, but 1: I haven't played the mobile version and 2: maybe there's substantial changes planned, that haven't been implemented yet. I'm guessing #2 to a large extent, based on the fact that you specifically mention the worldwide launch. Looking forward to Peter's speech, but I suggest you assemble a team of PR experts to scrutinize his speech before he makes it. And even then you might want to run the proposed speech by some community members before he makes it so they can point out the areas that are likely to enrage the general public. Because I don't think there has been a single speech by Peter yet that hasn't thrown people into a fit. Not a bad idea and something I can easily do via YouTube. Should def be possible. I think this is also a good idea. And while we're at, any discussion of how this is the "most ethical F2P game on mobile" needs to touch on how, in its current state, the game asks for a review very early on, before the IAPs have even been introduced. That does strike me as leaning towards unethical. (oh, and to echo Sundance's comment, I (personally) far prefer text to video as well, but whatever works) |
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