Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 30, 2014 23:22:34 GMT
Well you know I shall be aspiring to put up a video transcript as soon as I can so you would have it in text that way.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 1, 2014 1:18:09 GMT
I read this article just shaking my head. But I for one, would like to know what this means " “in crisis” just 36 hours ago." actually means... what was the crisis and why? I was wondering that, too. Any explanation about what that means?
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jul 1, 2014 6:41:05 GMT
I've just spoken to Peter and he's agreed to speak at length about what exactly makes Godus (one of) the most ethical F2P games on mobile at or just after the launch of the game on iOS worldwide. Okay.. no offense to Peter (honestly, I know he can be brilliant and inspirational) but he is the worst-placed person in all of 22Cans to be "speaking at length" on this topic. I think he has actually attempted to do this before on a few occasions and this is where the community got hold of such much-derided quotes as "delicious experience", "zen-like" and "invest-to-play". His vague, idealistic explanations are heavy on vision and light on content. This whole thing (whatever it is) about Godus being unique and never-before-seen and reinvented is supposed to the USP of the game. Everyone in the studio should have a thorough understanding of this concept. It's what everyone's working towards, isn't it? It's the driver behind every design decision. Could maybe Jack come and explain this to us?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 7:02:06 GMT
I've just spoken to Pater and he's agreed to speak at length about what exactly makes Godus (one of) the most ethical F2P games on mobile at or just after the launch of the game on iOS worldwide. "The best thing to do is to get people to enjoy the games, and then to tempt them." -Peter Molyneux- Feb 2014, pocketgamer.biz interview tempt tem(p)t/Submit verb Entice or attempt to entice (someone) to do or acquire something that they find attractive but know to be wrong or not beneficial.
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Post by julians on Jul 1, 2014 7:16:56 GMT
'Godus is the most ethical F2P game (even though it's not F2P but I2P, seems like 22Cans can't decide themselves) because it has the most of ethical choices. See all other F2P games are simple farming simulators. In Godus you can choose to be good or evil (evil choices not implemented yet and a re limited to hubworlds level 6 and up). Giving the players most ethical choices makes Godus most ethical game. Thank you and remember Godus for PC is not F2P.' Peter M.
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heggers
Master
Posts: 203
Pledge level: Partner
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Post by heggers on Jul 1, 2014 10:09:22 GMT
Now there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one
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splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jul 1, 2014 18:18:34 GMT
There are F2P games that solely or mainly sell cosmetics.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 1, 2014 21:53:46 GMT
Molyneux: Mobile F2P 'abuses and confuses' gamers
That just feels so much better. That man should never do another interview about anything. At best, he is insulting and at worst he's vaguely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
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Post by pogojo on Jul 2, 2014 10:31:01 GMT
I love PC games but I enjoy some F2P games if I'm in the mood for a light bit of gameplay rather than sitting down to beat something. I rarely spend money but when I do I find that it's on the games that offer me tons of fun gameplay and then get me to spend a bit of money to get more out of the experience. The ones that turn me off are the ones that feel like I'm paying to go through the motions and that I'm not actually making any progression unless I spend money and that gives me this artificial feel-good moment juxtaposed against the rest of the game where I'm actually feeling bad about myself for not getting anywhere. Maybe that's what he's referring to? If Godus makes you wait 10 hours every time you sculpt something then it could feel very much like handholding. If you can play quite freely and occupy yourself for a longer time without needing to spend money then maybe that would justify him thinking about monetisation differently (in relation to the majority of mobile games at least). Currently playing Godus on PC feels like something I'd play when I'm in the mood for a low-intensive fiddle. I don't mind that so much but I imagine a lot of people expect something more challenging from it.
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Post by Danjal on Jul 2, 2014 16:24:03 GMT
I love PC games but I enjoy some F2P games if I'm in the mood for a light bit of gameplay rather than sitting down to beat something. I rarely spend money but when I do I find that it's on the games that offer me tons of fun gameplay and then get me to spend a bit of money to get more out of the experience. The ones that turn me off are the ones that feel like I'm paying to go through the motions and that I'm not actually making any progression unless I spend money and that gives me this artificial feel-good moment juxtaposed against the rest of the game where I'm actually feeling bad about myself for not getting anywhere. Maybe that's what he's referring to? If Godus makes you wait 10 hours every time you sculpt something then it could feel very much like handholding. If you can play quite freely and occupy yourself for a longer time without needing to spend money then maybe that would justify him thinking about monetisation differently (in relation to the majority of mobile games at least). Currently playing Godus on PC feels like something I'd play when I'm in the mood for a low-intensive fiddle. I don't mind that so much but I imagine a lot of people expect something more challenging from it. So essentially what you're saying is that any monetization is justified and non-abusive. Because people have the alternative of waiting days/weeks for it to finish aswell. They didn't "have to" pay, they could have waited. And therefor its not abusive. Knowing full well that you're looking at a target audience that doesn't really have a high level of patience (most mobile players will simply delete the games that aren't compelling) and you retain that small group of players that will cash out regardless. Using the excuse that people *COULD* wait and therefor aren't forced to pay is really just one of those excuses to make yourself feel better. But at the end of the day, those people will still cash out - oh, but thats okay, you offered them an alternative so they *CHOSE* to pay thousands of dollars - its not YOUR fault is it? As for the expectations - that one remains clear as day from the start. The original pitch claimed to emulate certain titles. That pitch set certain expectations and drew in a very specific target audience. It most definitely was NOT oriented to a slower paced mobile crowd. Yet that seems to be the primary target audience right now, since that is the *largest* target audience (and therefor the potentially most profitable target audience). Conflicting priorities, bad communications and mismatching expectations - thats the name of the game. Personally I don't believe anyone can excuse a game that has day(s) or week(s) long timers/queues if it doesn't offer you something solid to do in the meantime. While I am very much a PC gamer, I'm fairly certain that a large group of mobile players would not stick around if they kept running into 24 hour timers with nothing else to do. You might come back once or twice - but at some point you'll lose interest and leave entirely. For Godus to be successful in that sense, it needs something solid to keep players busy. Something more than chores and minigames. And especially in that sense, Godus is no different from its F2P brethren. A namechange ('invest-to-play') and a coat of paint don't change that.
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Jul 2, 2014 16:58:26 GMT
I think the biggest misstep in the broad audience approach with this title is that the genre it's trying to reinvent, and the games it referenced in the kickstarter pitch, is a very specific niche, with very specific expectations from fans of that genre. Personally, I think the mobile version is going to run into the same problems that the pc version has - by trying for a broad approach to appeal to everyone, you're not really making a game for anyone.
For a bad analogy, I love mussels, and I love gummy bears, but woe be unto the candymaker that makes a bivalve-flavored gummy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 17:04:19 GMT
Agreed. Homogenization can be a dangerous road, especially when you are trying to captivate, enchant, and fleece... er, um... "monetise" multiple audiences.
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Post by pogojo on Jul 3, 2014 15:13:06 GMT
I love PC games but I enjoy some F2P games if I'm in the mood for a light bit of gameplay rather than sitting down to beat something. I rarely spend money but when I do I find that it's on the games that offer me tons of fun gameplay and then get me to spend a bit of money to get more out of the experience. The ones that turn me off are the ones that feel like I'm paying to go through the motions and that I'm not actually making any progression unless I spend money and that gives me this artificial feel-good moment juxtaposed against the rest of the game where I'm actually feeling bad about myself for not getting anywhere. Maybe that's what he's referring to? If Godus makes you wait 10 hours every time you sculpt something then it could feel very much like handholding. If you can play quite freely and occupy yourself for a longer time without needing to spend money then maybe that would justify him thinking about monetisation differently (in relation to the majority of mobile games at least). Currently playing Godus on PC feels like something I'd play when I'm in the mood for a low-intensive fiddle. I don't mind that so much but I imagine a lot of people expect something more challenging from it. So essentially what you're saying is that any monetization is justified and non-abusive. Because people have the alternative of waiting days/weeks for it to finish aswell. They didn't "have to" pay, they could have waited. And therefor its not abusive. Knowing full well that you're looking at a target audience that doesn't really have a high level of patience (most mobile players will simply delete the games that aren't compelling) and you retain that small group of players that will cash out regardless. Using the excuse that people *COULD* wait and therefor aren't forced to pay is really just one of those excuses to make yourself feel better. But at the end of the day, those people will still cash out - oh, but thats okay, you offered them an alternative so they *CHOSE* to pay thousands of dollars - its not YOUR fault is it? As for the expectations - that one remains clear as day from the start. The original pitch claimed to emulate certain titles. That pitch set certain expectations and drew in a very specific target audience. It most definitely was NOT oriented to a slower paced mobile crowd. Yet that seems to be the primary target audience right now, since that is the *largest* target audience (and therefor the potentially most profitable target audience). Conflicting priorities, bad communications and mismatching expectations - thats the name of the game. Personally I don't believe anyone can excuse a game that has day(s) or week(s) long timers/queues if it doesn't offer you something solid to do in the meantime. While I am very much a PC gamer, I'm fairly certain that a large group of mobile players would not stick around if they kept running into 24 hour timers with nothing else to do. You might come back once or twice - but at some point you'll lose interest and leave entirely. For Godus to be successful in that sense, it needs something solid to keep players busy. Something more than chores and minigames. And especially in that sense, Godus is no different from its F2P brethren. A namechange ('invest-to-play') and a coat of paint don't change that. I wouldn’t say that ANY and ALL monetisation is justified. It's ultimately about value. I wouldn't play the games that I feel try my patience too much! Games that give me lots of gameplay and value and then offer me more gameplay for paying seems like a fair deal to me, especially since it's started as free. I choose what I want to play and who I give money to, and if I feel like I got more joy out of a payment then it's a good deal, and one that is only relevant to me. Godus has way more gameplay than a lot of simulation games I can get on my phone, which is why I'm looking forward to it. I think it’s a bit unfair to say that people aren't intelligent if they don't play core games and so they aren't able to rationalise their own spending. Many people will spend lots of money on an activity they enjoy. In my experience, gamer culture is also very different to people that just look at games as an odd indulgence to snack on – I play a lot of games and so I don’t mind the pacing offered by games with wait timers. Still, I think it's a balance, not a good/evil thing. As a life-long core gamer myself, I find that the community’s perspective on F2P can be like having all of Breaking Bad on Netflix and then one day being told that you must wait a week for every episode to air on TV. TV has gone from snacking to gorging whilst games have gone the other way as loads of more casual players have got involved who have less time to give to games because of competing interests. I don’t think that casuals have less patience, because clearly gamers have even less patience, especially if you don’t think you’re getting value for money. And as for choice, to me it's the same choice as opting into a new WarCraft expansion or choosing whether to pay to open a crate that got dropped on me in Counter Strike or Team Fortress. I guess there's the argument with F2P that "where does it end?", but I don't seem to get tired of a beer on a Friday night either, and I'm happy! Each to their own I suppose.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 15:31:15 GMT
And as for choice, to me it's the same choice as opting into a new WarCraft expansion or choosing whether to pay to open a crate that got dropped on me in Counter Strike or Team Fortress. I guess there's the argument with F2P that "where does it end?", but I don't seem to get tired of a beer on a Friday night either, and I'm happy! The big difference, in my mind, is that Blizzard and Valve are very up front with their costs. Want a crate? Sure, here are your odds of getting that item you wanted. With Blizzard, you know a WoW expansion's cost well in advance and can weigh the value before you buy. With many F2P/F2D games, you usually have no way of gauging your "costs" unless you luck into a walk-through or review online that clearly outlines the frequency and cost of the paywalls, content fees, or how much you can expect to shell out for having an "uninterrupted" gaming experience. I'm sure there are some "good guy" studios out there that will tell you straight up what you may end up paying for a full experience, but I have yet to see one. I'm guessing this is mainly due to the fact that no F2P studio wants to dissuade whales from flinging their money at those paywalls (last time I checked whales made up something like 5% of the mobile gaming community population, but were responsible for most of the revenue.)
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splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jul 3, 2014 15:34:16 GMT
Are they really the same for you? For me there is a huge difference.
Buying a expansion or bigger DLC gives you a product that you can enjoy at will and that was designed to be fun.
Paying to speed up timers meant that someone implemented them to suck so much that I want to skip them and I do not really get something in return. Even if you pay to open a crate you get at least something in return that is permanent like new weapons or hats and if that encourages the developers to frequently add new weapons and other items to the game I think its actually beneficial.
Just like there are new characters, maps and gamemodes frequently added to League of Legends.
I personally feel ripped of if developers expect or try to lure me to buy something that will not last / is consumable. Even worse if that money is not used to further develop the game or gives unfair advantages over other players.
Edit:
Yes, that is definitely another big difference.
How long will 100 gems last? Will I encounter a artificial wall where I have to spent something? Will they add further things to buy with gems during development? Will the number of gems I have to spent increase as the timers take longer? ...
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Post by Danjal on Jul 3, 2014 17:01:32 GMT
I think it’s a bit unfair to say that people aren't intelligent if they don't play core games and so they aren't able to rationalise their own spending. Many people will spend lots of money on an activity they enjoy. The thing is, looking at the mobile market, we're seeing a small percentage of people that actually pay. And an even smaller percentage representing the major cashflow (the "whales"). Some bullshit ideology claiming that *my game isn't as abusive as all the others* isn't going to change that. If you offer people cash shortcuts - these players WILL spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on it. Not a week goes by without seeing some kid who maxed out their parents/grandparents creditcard or something of the sort on yet ANOTHER micro-transaction game. Sure, there are plenty of intelligent people that make the choice to pay or not to pay. But those aren't really the problem are they? Its knowing that there's that smaller group that will pay hundreds/thousands of dollars and that statistically represents the majority cashflow around most mobile titles. And then taking advantage of that as a business model. THAT is what makes it abusive. Any fancy words claiming how you want to make your game to be trancending that behaviour. Any claims that you want to bring casual and core gamers together. ANY ideals that you want to create a game that everyone can enjoy... All of that stands in the shadow of the fact that you are CHARGING people for artificial roadblock removal. Don't want to wait for that 24h timer? Pay some gems (cash). Don't want to grind all those stickers? Pay some gems! Don't want to..... Pay gems! At every single turn, Godus has put emphasis on the fact that making money is their primary motivation. Making a good game? Secondary *at best*. You see, there are plenty of alternatives for monetization that work very well and do not take advantage of the spending habits of people. Monetization that is truely optional. That does not stand in your way of progressing in the game. No, claiming that you *could've waited* doesn't really work here. When you're looking at timers that take DAYS. (A fun little fact here, the UK has ruled that Dungeon Keeper is no longer allowed to carry the name "free" because of that very same practice...) At multiple turns Peter has criticized the abusive nature of mobile games in his interviews. Yet he turns around and applies those very same practices to his own game and claims that he has INNOVATED and done something different. No... Just fucking no. If he wanted to innovate, he should've come with something new, rather than picking up the most popular buzzwords and slapping them together with ducttape. He also should not have taken a niche genre and forcebly turn it onto the largest market possible, just because of money. Most of all, he should not have acquired his initial funding by appealing to the original audience only to completely abandon them. I'll grant you this, Godus has improved over the past 6 months. Yet if you start off with a major deficit, its not that hard to improve. And it still has a very long way to go. If you choose to compare Godus against other garbage mobile titles - then sure, it might be better... But who in his right mind would make such a comparison? Two wrongs don't suddenly make a right. At the end of the day, Godus is no different when it comes to all these other titles. There's jackshit to do (there still is no overarching goal other than infinite expansion...), its riddled with roadblocks and you're met with microtransactionable content at every turn. There is no PC title at this point in time, there's only a mobile release focus. Because hey... *MONEY* I ask you this, when you have openly stated that your primary focus is making money. When your game shows this focus at every turn. Can you truely still claim that you're *different* from your competition? That your business model isn't abusive? Sorry, but no... Godus isn't different. No matter how often they repeat words like innovation and 'delicious'.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 3, 2014 17:46:15 GMT
I ask you this, when you have openly stated that your primary focus is making money. When your game shows this focus at every turn. Can you truely still claim that you're *different* from your competition? That your business model isn't abusive? Sorry, but no... Godus isn't different. No matter how often they repeat words like innovation and 'delicious'. Well, they sort of are different if you compare them to the bulk of the Kickstarter and indy game makers. Most of them are out to make a great game, do what they enjoy, and see if they can't make a living off of it. If you compare them to f2p developers, then 22Cans falls right in line.
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Post by Danjal on Jul 3, 2014 18:19:33 GMT
22cans isn't trying to compete with those indie developers right now. They're competing with the mobile and F2P developers that they claim are utilizing abusive models. And do so by claiming that their monetization methods aren't abusive. And that their game is innovative.
At which point I turn around and wonder what part of Godus is innovative? Because I see a bunch of existing component parts slapped together with ducttape. Held together by wishful thinking.
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