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Post by rubgish on Aug 5, 2014 12:54:23 GMT
To be fair to steam, what exactly can they do instead? They can't step in to finish a game that doesn't get finished, they can't force a game to develop in a certain way and they can't give out refunds just because the final product isn't the game you hoped it would become. Maybe it's a case of consumer expectation vs reality, but I don't think the problem is with the way steam runs early access, because I don't think there is any other way they can do it.
In terms of Godus and early access, if we look at it objectively, they are doing what they said they would - they are making a god game that you can play on the PC. Now that's happening slowly and it's also vying for time with the mobile-specific parts of development, but as far as I know there are no time constraints on early access (and I don't think there have been any promises about timings to early access players. For kickstarter backers we were told 9 months or whatever it was, but that passed ages ago).
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 12:58:47 GMT
Barring dishonest business practices they *shouldn't* be able to do it. It is a very vague system (that definitely needs better regulating), but looking at some specific examples: - Towns: Support stopped before the title was considered "finished" by many. However the game is functional, the missing features were mostly things that we're planned as additions during the development period.
- The War Z (Now 'Infestation: Survivor Stories'): Got launched with some very backwards promises on the store page reflecting features that were not part of the game but that 'would one day be added'. The game got taken down and some time later they re-released a more complete product under a different name.
- Prison Architect: Continually in development providing new updates - one could argue that this game will be perpetually in development for as long as there is interest and money flowing in. As such there is no "finished" state, but at the same time there also isn't a 'final' state for as long as people keep interested in it. Resulting in effectively more game than you originally paid for.
I won't deny that its a bit of a clusterfuck. It is, and the rules are horrid. Someone looking to take advantage of the system can most definitely do so. That said, I'd like to believe that it is not 22cans intention to purposefully rip off all their steam customers and that they indeed (as George and Matthew have claimed for months on end now) intend to fullfill the promises on the PC end of things. With that in mind - I simply state that it is not unreasonable to present the current state of affairs towards prospective buyers. Which means telling them that untill further notice the focus for Godus lies entirely on mobile development. That the current PC release is a modified mobile version that is constantly being tweaked and adjusted to make it more suitable for PC, but ultimately still remains a modified mobile version. This is the reality of the current situation. Trying to get people to buy your game on the basis of promises you will not be fullfilling for atleast 6 or more months (much more for people that bought the game 6 or more months ago...) is ludicrous. And is the very reason we're still having this conversation today. George here says that they are hard at work to make the game more PC friendly. And to add in more features that many PC gamers (such as myself) would enjoy. George and Matthew have been saying this for months now - and it is only recently that I've been seeing some substantial information that actually confirms that 22cans is slowly trying to add in these elements. However this is going to be a lengthy process, and that doesn't take away that anyone who looks at the product today isn't being told the complete story. It is up to US as consumers to provide the information needed for the industry to adjust. Instead of staying silent and having the big moneybags make all the decisions. No matter how little effect we have on the grand design. And if that means harrassing George (or Matthew) with continued feedback on why it is that the current situation is wrong. Than so be it. Rather than asking the question: "What can we change about Early Access." We should be asking ourselves the question: "Is 22cans running an honest business or not?" (I.E. can we trust a word of what they are saying) If the answer is no, it stops right here and we might aswell give up because they won't fullfill a word of what they're saying. If the answer is yes, then it is in all our best interests to improve the current situation and inform any prospective customer. |
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Post by Crumpy Six on Aug 5, 2014 15:48:00 GMT
To be fair to steam, what exactly can they do instead? They can't step in to finish a game that doesn't get finished, they can't force a game to develop in a certain way and they can't give out refunds just because the final product isn't the game you hoped it would become. Maybe it's a case of consumer expectation vs reality, but I don't think the problem is with the way steam runs early access, because I don't think there is any other way they can do it. In terms of Godus and early access, if we look at it objectively, they are doing what they said they would - they are making a god game that you can play on the PC. Now that's happening slowly and it's also vying for time with the mobile-specific parts of development, but as far as I know there are no time constraints on early access (and I don't think there have been any promises about timings to early access players. For kickstarter backers we were told 9 months or whatever it was, but that passed ages ago). I don't agree that "what can they do?" is a good excuse. If they can't protect consumers from Early Access and Early Access is unethical, then they shouldn't provide the Early Access service. Whether Early Access actually IS unethical is a different debate, really. I think it does a lot of good for small, independent developers. Godus was the first Early Access game I knowingly bought (turns out I'd also bought Don't Starve which was apparently EA at the time, but didn't feel remotely incomplete) and I've found it a very sour experience. I had a lot of misconceptions about the whole process - for example, I remember posting 2 weeks after the 1.3.1 release asking hopefully about when the next update was due. I had kind of assumed that an Early Access game would be updated frequently. Among a bunch of other misplaced assumptions, which have made me view the entire Early Access program as a nasty bit of business. I did recently buy another Early Access game, Plague Inc, which I've been really happy with. It's also cross-platform! So I'm not denying it can work out some of the time. |
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 5, 2014 15:50:44 GMT
Also, though the store page does mention that it's in development for mobile, nowhere does it point out that it is in fact free to play on mobile. That's a pretty big omission. I don't think that info is especially relevant for PC player looking to buy and play the game on PC wanting to find out information about the PC version of the game, since the PC version is not F2P and we don't promote future cross-platform connectivity in our Steam store description. Our iOS App Store page makes it pretty clear that the mobile version of the game is supported by in-app purchases - it lists what those top purchases are. The Settlements update will further make such distinction redundant anyway, as you'll see when I come to describe a new PC-specific feature on Friday. Yes, why would it be relevant to know that the same game is free on mobile? That the clearly referenced mobile cross-platform development is, in fact, free to play? It's not like you've gotten any complaints about this very issue at all, from consumers and press, right? So why would that be relevant? Hmm. Truth - you don't mention it, because you KNOW it would affect sales. Point blank, period. You can try and absurdly rationalize it all you want (your subsequent posts to Danjal are just that - absurd) but that's the bottom line. It would most definitely affect sales, hence, no mention that the title is FTP on mobile on the store page. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 15:57:55 GMT
Truth - you don't mention it, because you KNOW it would affect sales. Point blank, period. You can try and absurdly rationalize it all you want (your subsequent posts to Danjal are just that - absurd) but that's the bottom line. It would most definitely affect sales, hence, no mention that the title is FTP on mobile on the store page. It's absurd to say that mobile games and/or PC games are a platform (or possibly medium), rather than a genre? Seems like a perfectly sensible assertion to me. |
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 5, 2014 16:04:19 GMT
It's absurd to say that mobile games and/or PC games are a platform (or possibly medium), rather than a genre? Seems like a perfectly sensible assertion to me. Do you honestly not understand what I'm referring to, or is this a real bad attempt at moving the goalposts? |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 16:05:06 GMT
I have to agree and have said this before, the game is a F2p at this time, whether the shop is on or not and the buyers from any platform should be aware of this when making the decision to purchase or not.
I might be naive but before this, I would have trusted that Steam would not incorrectly label a game as a non F2p when it fact it was. The game as it is on Steam should be labeled an Early Access F2p, this explains why all the features such as the shop are not functioning and yet still is honest about what the game actually is. Would this affect sales at this point? Unsure, because there are plenty of gamers out there that love F2p and that should be who the game is being marketed to right now, in other words, the cat is out of that proverbial bag so why not just come clean and put out your Y in all it's glory while we wait for the X?
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 5, 2014 16:12:45 GMT
I'll add that even by pointing out 'mobile is a platform' doesn't address at all what Danjal was saying to you.
Yes, it is correct to say that technically, mobile and pc are platforms, not genres. Contextually, people use the term 'mobile' ina colloquial fashion to mean 'ftp', or 'cowclicker', or 'farmville-type crap facebook game' or whatever else. Context is of vital importance. Context, for example, like on the Godus review page on Steam, when people point out 'this is just a terrible mobile game'.
They aren't talking about the platform.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 16:17:39 GMT
Truth - you don't mention it, because you KNOW it would affect sales. Point blank, period. You can try and absurdly rationalize it all you want (your subsequent posts to Danjal are just that - absurd) but that's the bottom line. It would most definitely affect sales, hence, no mention that the title is FTP on mobile on the store page. It's absurd to say that mobile games and/or PC games are a platform (or possibly medium), rather than a genre? Seems like a perfectly sensible assertion to me. It is quite irrelevant what you call them, call them monkeypoop for all I care. The fact remains that a lot of people unwittingly bought a game that clearly proved to be a mobile F2P focused development. And that regardless of the number of people that are dissatisfied with the progress of said project, 22cans continues to uphold the charade and claims that "You'll get what you paid for some day in the future." and utterly refuses to inform prospective buyers directly and clearly on the relevant locations (the store page). A project being held together by wishful thinking and technicalities. I'd say that no matter how many semantics debates you bring up of "But I thought you meant X and I assumed Y meant that." it is QUITE clear that there are people who feel that the methods applied by 22cans to inform prospective buyers and to uphold the promises to existing buyers are inadequate. To make things clear: The mobile *platform* tends to bring about games of a variety of genres that are generally made with specific playstyles in mind. Touch control preference being a big thing here, but also the idea of conserving screen real-estate, keeping processing power requirements to a minimum and a heavy tendency to rely on F2P models (because very few mobile games are sold for a high price). The entire model is completely DIFFERENT from that of console and PC. But even Console titles are significantly different from their mobile and PC counterparts, denying this is plain foolish. If you pick up Darksiders and try to run it on your PC, you'll quickly find out that it doesn't function at all untill you plug in a controller (gamepad), the game does NOT function on a PC with PC controls. Godus is much the same, it lacks most of the elements that people want and expect from a PC title. While a few of them have been added overtime, the game is still primarily a mobile F2P title with some elements tacked on and being tested. It doesn't matter whether you call it genre, style, or something else. So stop hiding behind excuses and semantics. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 16:21:46 GMT
Playing like a F2P game is not the same as actually being an F2P game, especially in terms of how you, the customer, imparts cash for the game.
We want to minimise the F2P gameplay aspects in Godus on PC, which will be evidenced in the Settlements revamp - the fact we haven't done so yet is covered and explained by the fact it's a Steam Early Access title. As I said, after the forthcoming update has been released then I'll update the Steam store text and would be more than happy to acquiesce to any community feedback on it at that time.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 16:28:38 GMT
Playing like a F2P game is not the same as actually being an F2P game, especially in terms of how you, the customer, imparts cash for the game. We want to minimise the F2P gameplay aspects in Godus on PC, which will be evidenced in the Settlements revamp - the fact we haven't done so yet is covered and explained by the fact it's a Steam Early Access title. As I said, after the forthcoming update has been released then I'll update the Steam store text and would be more than happy to acquiesce to any community feedback on it at that time. We paid for a game that plays like a F2P game... Please tell me, how is it different? We PAID for what effectively is a F2P game. As for the Early Access excuse - I ask you this, is it morally sound to promise to make one game and then to deliver another claiming that "Oh we'll deliver the rest later, first we have to make money off of this by releasing it on a different platform!" Do you truely believe that the Early Access model was designed to do that? Is that something you can stand behind as a honest business practice? On a sidenote, if you ever get fired by 22cans, I recommend you go work in politics. It seems a much more appropriate branch for this kind of practices. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 16:32:32 GMT
We paid for a game that plays like a F2P game... Please tell me, how is it different? We PAID for what effectively is a F2P game. As for the Early Access excuse - I ask you this, is it morally sound to promise to make one game and then to deliver another claiming that "Oh we'll deliver the rest later, first we have to make money off of this by releasing it on a different platform!" Do you truely believe that the Early Access model was designed to do that? Is that something you can stand behind as a honest business practice? The difference is that you aren't affected by any in-game micro-transactions for real-world cash as you've already bought all the content up-front. What I stand behind is Steam Early Access being for selling games that are a work-in-progress in terms of their development and that it's at the purchaser's discretion to understand what that entails. The fact that Godus plays like an F2P game on PC right now doesn't mean it will play like an F2P game next week or, failing that, next month. Nevertheless, I'll be happy to update the store text once the new update goes live and would be only to happy to do so based off reasonable feedback from the community. On a sidenote, if you ever get fired by 22cans, I recommend you go work in politics. It seems a much more appropriate branch for this kind of practices. LOL, I'm far too naughty in my spare time for that - I'd be a tabloid journo's wet dream! |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 16:37:15 GMT
What I stand behind is Steam Early Access being for selling games that are a work-in-progress in terms of their development and that it's at the purchaser's discretion to understand what that entails. The fact that Godus plays like an F2P game on PC right now doesn't mean it will play like an F2P game next week or, failing that, next month. Nevertheless, I'll be happy to update the store text once the new update goes live and would be only to happy to do so based off reasonable feedback from the community. Exactly, you put up a store page saying "hey, this is what we're making, its currently not finished but you can pay to get access for it right now and contribute with its development. We will be working on finishing *THIS GAME* with the money you provide us." What 22cans did is "Hey, this is the game we want to make, its currently not finished but you can pay to get access for it right now and contribute to its development - we're not going to tell you this beforehand, but we're actually working on this game for a different platform right now and it has a completely different focus. The money you are paying is actually going into the development for this other platform and when that one starts selling and we're actually making some money we'll turn around and we PROMISE we'll work on the game you actually paid for originally. We don't really know how long that is going to take though, but don't worry! Because you paid for life-long access!" It'd be like asking money on steam to then make a game on xbox or playstation, then use the money from that to actually refurbish that game back to steam 2~3+ years down the line. And lets not forget the kickstarter backers - kickstarter actually specifically REQUIRES you to spend the money on the game you promised to make. Which is currently barely being fullfilled on technicalities and certain parts of the original concept are reportedly already being scrapped. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 16:37:32 GMT
What I stand behind is Steam Early Access being for selling games that are a work-in-progress in terms of their development and that it's at the purchaser's discretion to understand what that entails. The fact that Godus plays like an F2P game on PC right now doesn't mean it will play like an F2P game next week or, failing that, next month. Nevertheless, I'll be happy to update the store text once the new update goes live and would be only to happy to do so based off reasonable feedback from the community. That's really unfair to say. You admitted that you are focusing on mobile right now, and it is a F2p so no offense but that rings of used car salesmen deception to me. Let the buyer beware indeed. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 16:39:18 GMT
I genuinely don't think it's unfair - those are the facts, after all. It'd be like asking money on steam to then make a game on xbox or playstation, then use the money from that to actually refurbish that game back to steam 2~3+ years down the line. On the contrary, we've committed to a PC-dedicated sprint later on this year. In the meantime, all the improvements we make to the game generally will get pushed to the PC build, as you'll see with the Settlements revamp, which tangibly improves the game regardless of platform. |
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 5, 2014 16:41:21 GMT
Playing like a F2P game is not the same as actually being an F2P game, especially in terms of how you, the customer, imparts cash for the game. We want to minimise the F2P gameplay aspects in Godus on PC, which will be evidenced in the Settlements revamp - the fact we haven't done so yet is covered and explained by the fact it's a Steam Early Access title. As I said, after the forthcoming update has been released then I'll update the Steam store text and would be more than happy to acquiesce to any community feedback on it at that time. To the first part, 'playing like ...', well, okay. That's not something to hang your hat on, there. How is that a good thing? 'We're not a terrible game technically, we're just emulating the same mechanics of terrible gameplay'. 'It tastes like chicken, but it isn't actually chicken'. To the part about minimizing ftp aspects on pc, I guess this would be believable, except, even during the kickstarter campaign, and prior to early access, 22Cans blatantly lied about being a FTP game, straight to their backers! You (not you personally, you know what I mean) sold people on a mobile concept that is nothing like what you've spent most of your time actively developing! Using 'early access' as a scapegoat is nonsense. The fact you haven't done so yet has nothing to do with early access at all, and everything to do with 22Cans choosing to spend their time developing a FTP mobile game. Seriously, quit using Early Access as a scapegoat. You don't see Squad doing that. Granted, they've spent their entire time developing a PC game with complete transparency, but still. Emulate them. Not Zynga. |
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Post by rubgish on Aug 5, 2014 16:47:32 GMT
To be fair to steam, what exactly can they do instead? They can't step in to finish a game that doesn't get finished, they can't force a game to develop in a certain way and they can't give out refunds just because the final product isn't the game you hoped it would become. Maybe it's a case of consumer expectation vs reality, but I don't think the problem is with the way steam runs early access, because I don't think there is any other way they can do it. In terms of Godus and early access, if we look at it objectively, they are doing what they said they would - they are making a god game that you can play on the PC. Now that's happening slowly and it's also vying for time with the mobile-specific parts of development, but as far as I know there are no time constraints on early access (and I don't think there have been any promises about timings to early access players. For kickstarter backers we were told 9 months or whatever it was, but that passed ages ago). I don't agree that "what can they do?" is a good excuse. If they can't protect consumers from Early Access and Early Access is unethical, then they shouldn't provide the Early Access service. Whether Early Access actually IS unethical is a different debate, really. I think it does a lot of good for small, independent developers. Godus was the first Early Access game I knowingly bought (turns out I'd also bought Don't Starve which was apparently EA at the time, but didn't feel remotely incomplete) and I've found it a very sour experience. I had a lot of misconceptions about the whole process - for example, I remember posting 2 weeks after the 1.3.1 release asking hopefully about when the next update was due. I had kind of assumed that an Early Access game would be updated frequently. Among a bunch of other misplaced assumptions, which have made me view the entire Early Access program as a nasty bit of business. I did recently buy another Early Access game, Plague Inc, which I've been really happy with. It's also cross-platform! So I'm not denying it can work out some of the time. So long as the buyer is made aware that there is a reasonable chance that they will get diddly squat at the end of it, I think it's ethical to carry on. I remember a few years back hearing lots of moaning (me included) about how it was only ever AAA games released and that no-one did anything original or new anymore. What with the economy not being great and most sales seeming to be dominated by a few super-sized corporations, no small company was getting funding to make the little games that could potentially blow up huge. Then we got crowd funding & things like steam early access (and the success of minecraft too which helped), and now we get a huge number of new games from small teams. Yeah quite a few of them flop and aren't fantastic, but really if you pay £10 and get a few hours out of it, then it's not actually bad value compared to say, going to the cinema. It's also worth considering that a small number of them end up being pretty great games that you sink a huge amount of time into. Now I know this isn't really technically how it works, but if I end up kickstarting/financing 5 small games @ £10 each and only 1/5 of them ends up being really good, then i've effectively spent £50 on one really good game which is kinda ok for me. Bringing my ramblings back to Godus, I feel that early access here is doing something different to normal early access. I think without it, Godus still would be created, but it'd be out much sooner and be much worse as a result. Somewhat ironically I think that the income from early access is actually helping to keep the game from being released so they can work on it for longer. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 16:55:51 GMT
I genuinely don't think it's unfair - those are the facts, after all. It'd be like asking money on steam to then make a game on xbox or playstation, then use the money from that to actually refurbish that game back to steam 2~3+ years down the line. On the contrary, we've committed to a PC-dedicated sprint later on this year. In the meantime, all the improvements we make to the game generally will get pushed to the PC build, as you'll see with the Settlements revamp, which tangibly improves the game regardless of platform. Thats what you say now... Yet we both know this discussion is significantly older than 1 day... As the mobile/F2P nature has been at odds for over half a year now. Claiming that you have definitive plans for changes in the nearby future, does not change a thing about the game as it is right now and as you are selling it right now. 22cans has you effectively stalling for time, as it has had Matthew before you. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 5, 2014 17:18:26 GMT
Thats what you say now... Yet we both know this discussion is significantly older than 1 day... As the mobile/F2P nature has been at odds for over half a year now. Claiming that you have definitive plans for changes in the nearby future, does not change a thing about the game as it is right now and as you are selling it right now. 22cans has you effectively stalling for time, as it has had Matthew before you. ACTUÁLLY, not technically, the mobile/ftp argument has bee going on much longer than over half a year, even more than a year. If I recall the history (correct me if I'm wrong, Backers), it's been in contention since the very first Alpha test, exclusive only to Alphan level Backers. They(22Cans) were called out on it from day one, and initially not only denied it but proceeded to do everything to backpedal and hide the obvious - so far as locking and deleting Aplha forum threads (they were accused of editing the KS pledge, but I think that was unsubstantiated). They eventually rescinded and admitted they were focusing on the mobile platform, and promised it wouldn't negatively affect the PC platform. This was all long before it launched Early Acces on Steam - which ended up practically repeating exactly what the Aplhas experienced. They have made much headway in rectifying those those early misteps and oversights, though they still have a long way to go to repair the damage that was done. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 17:18:43 GMT
I seen plenty of salespeople hornswaggle people out of their hard earned cash for cars that were not what they thought, but that did not make it right. When you speak about the ethics behind it, I am certain that it is not leaving a great taste in your mouth about people getting deceived yet again.
Business is business and we all get that, but then there is a matter of respect, and that is something that 22cans has been losing due to practices such as these. Walking that very thin edge, dipping over every so often and then using spin to rationalize certain aspects all put a very sour taste in my mouth when I think about them.
I mean what I said, for Let the Buyer beware, that phrase exists to warn the buyer to read the small print and watch out for this exact type of manipulation of legalities. It might not be illegal but it does stink and in USA you would end up with a ton of BBB warnings and a very low rating. Just because you can get away with something does not mean you should be. The game "plays like a F2p" is just another semantic in the same ilk as "Invest to Play". Don't forget we asked about if this game was going to ever have a shop way way back and was outright lied to. I have not forgotten that, nor did I forget how much PM said he hated any games like FB Farmville, and that is exactly what the current game is.
I keep saying this, I would have more respect for 22cans if they would just call the game what it is and sell it as that, and I will be happy to wait for my PC game I was promised when I backed the game. You can call it what you want but all I hear is more people being mislead since they are stupid and naive enough not to assume that since Steam has a F2p category and you are not listed as one, that you would not be one, play like one, or anything other wording you choose to use. It is simply a legal loophole to get around deceiving people.
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